Ralph Nader is unsurprisingly still a giant douchebag
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  Ralph Nader is unsurprisingly still a giant douchebag
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bgwah
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« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2012, 08:48:54 PM »

Hah. Wake me up when Obama launches an invasion based on a lie.
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they don't love you like i love you
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« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2012, 09:18:46 PM »


I'm sure that we have no trouble imagining that an experienced lawyer who has dedicated his life to consumer activism and who has testified before congress on multiple occasions is shaking in his boots at the thought of being ripped to shreds by the intellectual giants who live in their parents' basements and populate DU.

LOL@clearly not knowing the demographics of DU.
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Boris
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« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2012, 09:38:57 PM »

it's just what liberals do.  when it's "their guy" they're more than willing to excuse the most magnificent crimes.

And that's what irritates me about the left in this country.  Wiretapping under Bush?  Everyone wigs out.  Practical evisceration of the 4th Amendment via the NDAA under Obama?  Weak justifications, or they look over it.

I seriously just don't get it.

Fatigue from the Bush administration. People are burned out being irate at the government, especially over things that, looking back, were largely non-factors in determining their quality of life. You can still motivate people when their ability to download music and movies and porn is threatened, but not over things like the NDAA or events happening 7000 miles away 
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MaxQue
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« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2012, 09:41:28 PM »

Sure, because letting terrorists kill people is a lesser crime....

Perhaps than that is making Obama a war criminal, but it would be a worse crime of letting the terrorist kill people. Too bad than this forum is filled with naive people who think than talking and doing nothing can improve them. If they are our future, it's a disaster.
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Badger
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« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2012, 09:56:54 PM »

I have to say I never found targeted drone strikes as being on the same level as an invasion. Since we don't get any cooperation from the Pakistanis, drone strikes are the best way to kill Al Qaeda targets hiding there.

As well as innocent people we think are worthy targets when they aren't.

Yes, that needs to be mitigated. I don't know what the statistics are on the percentage of time we have the wrong target, but if it is too high, we should require better intelligence before we use our drones. In any case, getting them on the ground would be the best option. If only the Pakistanis would stop double crossing us. Bin Laden could have easily been captured by Pakistani authorities since he was living in an affluent suburb of the capital, but Obama had to send in Seal team 6 because there was no way we could have trusted them. Obama made the right move there.

Which raises the question, Spanish Moss, how SHOULD Al-Queda be engaged? Or shouldn't they be at all?
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Spanish Moss
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« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2012, 03:34:49 AM »

I love the idea that recent U.S. presidents are war criminals. It's very cute and I'm sure y'all will win many elections running on that.

"If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged." - Noam Chomsky

While I strongly disagree with hanging ANYONE, this is a factually correct statement.

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AkSaber
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« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2012, 07:43:28 PM »


Me too.
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Comrade Funk
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« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2012, 08:28:30 PM »

it's just what liberals do.  when it's "their guy" they're more than willing to excuse the most magnificent crimes.

And that's what irritates me about the left in this country.  Wiretapping under Bush?  Everyone wigs out.  Practical evisceration of the 4th Amendment via the NDAA under Obama?  Weak justifications, or they look over it.

I seriously just don't get it.

Personal I think it's quite simple; the election 2000 showed the price of ideological purity and the whole argument that "the lesser evil is still evil". It got people 8 years with George Bush's cronies, policies and wars.... and no matter how much a corporate stooge the left find him, he's still preferable to Bush. So yes they could play it up, but it would make them nothing more than useful idiots for GOP.

So basically let the Democrats get worse and worse, without holding their feet to the fire, because it's politically convenient at that moment?

Honestly, I used to believe there must be a point where Democrats draw the line on their Presidential Candidate, but after NDAA - I seriously believe their candidate could be a proto-fascist, but as long as the Republicans pose someone further to the right, they'll continue to support them.
Fascism seems pretty tame to me.
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Spanish Moss
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« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2012, 09:04:03 PM »

it's just what liberals do.  when it's "their guy" they're more than willing to excuse the most magnificent crimes.

And that's what irritates me about the left in this country.  Wiretapping under Bush?  Everyone wigs out.  Practical evisceration of the 4th Amendment via the NDAA under Obama?  Weak justifications, or they look over it.

I seriously just don't get it.

Personal I think it's quite simple; the election 2000 showed the price of ideological purity and the whole argument that "the lesser evil is still evil". It got people 8 years with George Bush's cronies, policies and wars.... and no matter how much a corporate stooge the left find him, he's still preferable to Bush. So yes they could play it up, but it would make them nothing more than useful idiots for GOP.

So basically let the Democrats get worse and worse, without holding their feet to the fire, because it's politically convenient at that moment?

Honestly, I used to believe there must be a point where Democrats draw the line on their Presidential Candidate, but after NDAA - I seriously believe their candidate could be a proto-fascist, but as long as the Republicans pose someone further to the right, they'll continue to support them.
Fascism seems pretty tame to me.

I wasn't saying the candidate is proto-fascist, I'm saying that if in 2016 they could run a virtual (literal) fascist and as long as the Republican is more (literally, not hyperbolically) fascist, most people will still vote for them.

I mean, after NDAA, upping the war in Afghanistan and drone bombing (which included killing an American citizen who was a MINOR), as well as climate holocaust going on and having no meaningful alternative ("clean coal" is b.s., and nuclear energy produces tons of waste at a risk not worth taking) - what does he have to do to actually lose the vote of liberals?
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Vosem
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« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2012, 09:47:42 PM »

nuclear energy produces tons of waste at a risk not worth taking


PEBBLE. BED. REACTORS.

The safe future of fission nuclear power.
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« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2012, 08:21:49 AM »

Sure, because letting terrorists kill people is a lesser crime....

Perhaps than that is making Obama a war criminal, but it would be a worse crime of letting the terrorist kill people. Too bad than this forum is filled with naive people who think than talking and doing nothing can improve them. If they are our future, it's a disaster.

Hashemite likes this post.

Also, Nader has gone completely cuckoo. Heaping praise on Sarah Palin? Seriously?
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mondale84
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« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2012, 01:59:32 PM »

Obama's not a war criminal in my opinion but he has been aggressive and Dubya-like in many ways.  He's certainly not the kumbaya President libs wanted.

He's exactly the president I wanted and nothing like Bush Jr. Jrwas all about sending hundreds of thousands of ground troops in at great cost, both financial and human. Obama is like a surgeon, sending in high tech drones as needed and finally getting Osama bin Laden, in Pakistan, a place the GOP was too afraid to touch.

High tech drones which have killed tons of innocent individuals, including targets wrongly accused, also including at least one American citizen.

Your point?
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Spanish Moss
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« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2012, 02:56:03 PM »

Obama's not a war criminal in my opinion but he has been aggressive and Dubya-like in many ways.  He's certainly not the kumbaya President libs wanted.

He's exactly the president I wanted and nothing like Bush Jr. Jrwas all about sending hundreds of thousands of ground troops in at great cost, both financial and human. Obama is like a surgeon, sending in high tech drones as needed and finally getting Osama bin Laden, in Pakistan, a place the GOP was too afraid to touch.

High tech drones which have killed tons of innocent individuals, including targets wrongly accused, also including at least one American citizen.

Your point?

As someone on the left he is entirely unacceptable for me to vote for and bad enough that he's not worth conceding to for my vote.
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Lief 🗽
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« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2012, 03:28:40 PM »

First of all, the NDAA (more accurately two specific section within the 2012 NDAA) is a kooky internet libertarian strawman attack on Obama, and it's disappointing when smart people fall for this nonsense. The bill is a gigantic defense department funding bill, which includes pay and healthcare costs for soldiers. No president is ever, ever going to veto that, especially over two provisions (in a massive, $700 billion bill) that don't really change the law and which won't be enforced. Acting like this bill was some proto-fascist power grab is ridiculous.

Second, for opponents of drone attacks, what else would you propose we do? I see three options: put soldiers on the ground, use drones, do nothing. The third is obviously not happening because we are a sovereign country and we have the right to defend ourselves and our people. If there is actionable, trustworthy intelligence, then we should kill or capture enemies. That's how being a country works. The long list of Al'Qaeda leaders killed in the last four years should make it clear that Obama isn't traipsing around the world blowing up whatever he wants, unlike his predecessor. Yes, there is unfortunately collateral damage and unfortunately innocent people die. But there is much less of both when you use drone attacks versus putting boots on the ground and invading a country (not to mention of course fewer American soldier deaths, which like it or not should be the U.S. president's first priority).
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Donerail
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« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2012, 03:48:25 PM »

Obama's not a war criminal in my opinion but he has been aggressive and Dubya-like in many ways.  He's certainly not the kumbaya President libs wanted.

He's exactly the president I wanted and nothing like Bush Jr. Jrwas all about sending hundreds of thousands of ground troops in at great cost, both financial and human. Obama is like a surgeon, sending in high tech drones as needed and finally getting Osama bin Laden, in Pakistan, a place the GOP was too afraid to touch.

High tech drones which have killed tons of innocent individuals, including targets wrongly accused, also including at least one American citizen.

Your point?

The point is that 1st degree murder is bad.
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H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
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« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2012, 04:04:59 PM »

Obama's not a war criminal in my opinion but he has been aggressive and Dubya-like in many ways.  He's certainly not the kumbaya President libs wanted.

He's exactly the president I wanted and nothing like Bush Jr. Jrwas all about sending hundreds of thousands of ground troops in at great cost, both financial and human. Obama is like a surgeon, sending in high tech drones as needed and finally getting Osama bin Laden, in Pakistan, a place the GOP was too afraid to touch.

High tech drones which have killed tons of innocent individuals, including targets wrongly accused, also including at least one American citizen.

Your point?

The point is that 1st degree murder is bad.

Was the bin Laden raid 1st degree murder? Is an accident 1st degree murder?
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Link
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« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2012, 04:15:53 PM »
« Edited: September 28, 2012, 04:18:50 PM by Link »

it's just what liberals do.  when it's "their guy" they're more than willing to excuse the most magnificent crimes.

And that's what irritates me about the left in this country.  Wiretapping under Bush?  Everyone wigs out.  Practical evisceration of the 4th Amendment via the NDAA under Obama?  Weak justifications, or they look over it.

I seriously just don't get it.

Define "everyone?"  I definitely thought Bush was a war mongering imbecile but I certainly didn't care about the wire taps.  If Cheney wants to listen to my boring conversations with my girlfriend that needs AT LEAST two phone calls a day even though nothing has happened let him.  Why should I suffer alone?

Obama's not a war criminal in my opinion but he has been aggressive and Dubya-like in many ways.  He's certainly not the kumbaya President libs wanted.

He's exactly the president I wanted and nothing like Bush Jr. Jrwas all about sending hundreds of thousands of ground troops in at great cost, both financial and human. Obama is like a surgeon, sending in high tech drones as needed and finally getting Osama bin Laden, in Pakistan, a place the GOP was too afraid to touch.

High tech drones which have killed tons of innocent individuals, including targets wrongly accused, also including at least one American citizen.

Who cares?
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mondale84
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« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2012, 04:18:11 PM »

Obama's not a war criminal in my opinion but he has been aggressive and Dubya-like in many ways.  He's certainly not the kumbaya President libs wanted.

He's exactly the president I wanted and nothing like Bush Jr. Jrwas all about sending hundreds of thousands of ground troops in at great cost, both financial and human. Obama is like a surgeon, sending in high tech drones as needed and finally getting Osama bin Laden, in Pakistan, a place the GOP was too afraid to touch.

High tech drones which have killed tons of innocent individuals, including targets wrongly accused, also including at least one American citizen.

Your point?

The point is that 1st degree murder is bad.

LOL.

If you consider that 1st degree murder, pick up a law dictionary.
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Donerail
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« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2012, 04:31:53 PM »

Obama's not a war criminal in my opinion but he has been aggressive and Dubya-like in many ways.  He's certainly not the kumbaya President libs wanted.

He's exactly the president I wanted and nothing like Bush Jr. Jrwas all about sending hundreds of thousands of ground troops in at great cost, both financial and human. Obama is like a surgeon, sending in high tech drones as needed and finally getting Osama bin Laden, in Pakistan, a place the GOP was too afraid to touch.

High tech drones which have killed tons of innocent individuals, including targets wrongly accused, also including at least one American citizen.

Your point?

The point is that 1st degree murder is bad.

LOL.

If you consider that 1st degree murder, pick up a law dictionary.

Premeditated and willful killing of an innocent man is 1st degree murder, and state-sanctioned death without trial/jury/lawyer/judge is a very large step towards fascism.
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CatoMinor
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« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2012, 04:33:27 PM »

First of all, the NDAA (more accurately two specific section within the 2012 NDAA) is a kooky internet libertarian strawman attack on Obama, and it's disappointing when smart people fall for this nonsense. The bill is a gigantic defense department funding bill, which includes pay and healthcare costs for soldiers. No president is ever, ever going to veto that, especially over two provisions (in a massive, $700 billion bill) that don't really change the law and which won't be enforced. Acting like this bill was some proto-fascist power grab is ridiculous.

Calling out those two sections as unconstitutional is not a straw man against Obama, its calling two badly written sections out as what they are. Obama wasn't even part of the friggin criticism until he signed it into law.

Also saying he only signed it becuase of what it was a part of and him not enforcing it do not change the facts that it was ruled to be in violation of the 1st and 5th amendments. Despite that his justice department appealed the rulings. He could have just let it die right there and ended it but didn't.
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mondale84
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« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2012, 04:38:01 PM »

Obama's not a war criminal in my opinion but he has been aggressive and Dubya-like in many ways.  He's certainly not the kumbaya President libs wanted.

He's exactly the president I wanted and nothing like Bush Jr. Jrwas all about sending hundreds of thousands of ground troops in at great cost, both financial and human. Obama is like a surgeon, sending in high tech drones as needed and finally getting Osama bin Laden, in Pakistan, a place the GOP was too afraid to touch.

High tech drones which have killed tons of innocent individuals, including targets wrongly accused, also including at least one American citizen.

Your point?

The point is that 1st degree murder is bad.

LOL.

If you consider that 1st degree murder, pick up a law dictionary.

Premeditated and willful killing of an innocent man is 1st degree murder, and state-sanctioned death without trial/jury/lawyer/judge is a very large step towards fascism.

So you're saying that Obama is premeditating and deliberately ordering the murder of the innocents who are among those killed in these strikes?

That's about as crazy a conspiracy theory as I've hear...
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Donerail
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« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2012, 04:43:47 PM »

Obama's not a war criminal in my opinion but he has been aggressive and Dubya-like in many ways.  He's certainly not the kumbaya President libs wanted.

He's exactly the president I wanted and nothing like Bush Jr. Jrwas all about sending hundreds of thousands of ground troops in at great cost, both financial and human. Obama is like a surgeon, sending in high tech drones as needed and finally getting Osama bin Laden, in Pakistan, a place the GOP was too afraid to touch.

High tech drones which have killed tons of innocent individuals, including targets wrongly accused, also including at least one American citizen.

Your point?

The point is that 1st degree murder is bad.

LOL.

If you consider that 1st degree murder, pick up a law dictionary.

Premeditated and willful killing of an innocent man is 1st degree murder, and state-sanctioned death without trial/jury/lawyer/judge is a very large step towards fascism.

So you're saying that Obama is premeditating and deliberately ordering the murder of the innocents who are among those killed in these strikes?

That's about as crazy a conspiracy theory as I've hear...


The NY Times is known for being prone to conspiracy theories, yes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&
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mondale84
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« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2012, 04:49:37 PM »

Obama's not a war criminal in my opinion but he has been aggressive and Dubya-like in many ways.  He's certainly not the kumbaya President libs wanted.

He's exactly the president I wanted and nothing like Bush Jr. Jrwas all about sending hundreds of thousands of ground troops in at great cost, both financial and human. Obama is like a surgeon, sending in high tech drones as needed and finally getting Osama bin Laden, in Pakistan, a place the GOP was too afraid to touch.

High tech drones which have killed tons of innocent individuals, including targets wrongly accused, also including at least one American citizen.

Your point?

The point is that 1st degree murder is bad.

LOL.

If you consider that 1st degree murder, pick up a law dictionary.

Premeditated and willful killing of an innocent man is 1st degree murder, and state-sanctioned death without trial/jury/lawyer/judge is a very large step towards fascism.

So you're saying that Obama is premeditating and deliberately ordering the murder of the innocents who are among those killed in these strikes?

That's about as crazy a conspiracy theory as I've hear...


The NY Times is known for being prone to conspiracy theories, yes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

Was killing Bin Laden first degree murder?

People are killed all the time in this manner because we have to protect this country. Deal with it, buddy.
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Donerail
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« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2012, 04:53:16 PM »

Obama's not a war criminal in my opinion but he has been aggressive and Dubya-like in many ways.  He's certainly not the kumbaya President libs wanted.

He's exactly the president I wanted and nothing like Bush Jr. Jrwas all about sending hundreds of thousands of ground troops in at great cost, both financial and human. Obama is like a surgeon, sending in high tech drones as needed and finally getting Osama bin Laden, in Pakistan, a place the GOP was too afraid to touch.

High tech drones which have killed tons of innocent individuals, including targets wrongly accused, also including at least one American citizen.

Your point?

The point is that 1st degree murder is bad.

LOL.

If you consider that 1st degree murder, pick up a law dictionary.

Premeditated and willful killing of an innocent man is 1st degree murder, and state-sanctioned death without trial/jury/lawyer/judge is a very large step towards fascism.

So you're saying that Obama is premeditating and deliberately ordering the murder of the innocents who are among those killed in these strikes?

That's about as crazy a conspiracy theory as I've hear...


The NY Times is known for being prone to conspiracy theories, yes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

Was killing Bin Laden first degree murder?

People are killed all the time in this manner because we have to protect this country. Deal with it, buddy.

I wasn't talking about bin Laden, I was talking about people like al-Aulaqi, who was senselessly murdered for doing things that threaten the security of this country like having a blog and a Facebook and making YouTube videos.
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Link
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« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2012, 05:27:46 PM »

I wasn't talking about bin Laden, I was talking about people like al-Aulaqi, who was senselessly murdered for doing things that threaten the security of this country like having a blog and a Facebook and making YouTube videos.

I'll ask the question again... who cares?
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