Police shoot and kill 83 year old woman for no reason

[Mister Twister]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57520895-504083/police-allegedly-shoot-and-kill-83-year-old-woman-while-responding-to-her-911-call/

[John Dibble]

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If the story that the officers tell is true that hardly counts as 'no reason'. This is a terrible tragedy, but that doesn't automatically make the police guilty.

[GMantis]

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If the story that the officers tell is true that hardly counts as 'no reason'. This is a terrible tragedy, but that doesn't automatically make the police guilty.

Consider how often the police lie to protect one of their own, I wouldn't put too much trust in this absurd story.

[John Dibble]

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If the story that the officers tell is true that hardly counts as 'no reason'. This is a terrible tragedy, but that doesn't automatically make the police guilty.

Consider how often the police lie to protect one of their own, I wouldn't put too much trust in this absurd story.

Yeah, all police are liars and it's totally absurd that an 83 year old woman who is scared someone's invading her house at night could become confused enough to do something like point a gun at the police.

The police could be lying, but the story isn't implausible. Not every case of something bad happening when the police are involved is necessarily their fault - sometimes life just happens to suck.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

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If the story that the officers tell is true that hardly counts as 'no reason'. This is a terrible tragedy, but that doesn't automatically make the police guilty.

Consider how often the police lie to protect one of their own, I wouldn't put too much trust in this absurd story.

Yeah, all police are liars and it's totally absurd that an 83 year old woman who is scared someone's invading her house at night could become confused enough to do something like point a gun at the police.

The police could be lying, but the story isn't implausible. Not every case of something bad happening when the police are involved is necessarily their fault - sometimes life just happens to suck.

And sometimes,  the police suck.......and lie.  We'll never know.

[John Dibble]

And sometimes,  the police suck.......and lie.  We'll never know.

Yes, sometimes they do. I just dislike automatically assuming guilt in a situation where it isn't clear where the fault lies. The police aren't automatically bad guys.

[opebo]

The police aren't automatically bad guys.

Oh, I think that is a safe assumption, Dibble - at least one it would be advisable for all you young people to assume in practice in case you ever have any contact or dealings with this particular vicious gang.

[Associate Justice PiT]

And sometimes,  the police suck.......and lie.  We'll never know.

Yes, sometimes they do. I just dislike automatically assuming guilt in a situation where it isn't clear where the fault lies. The police aren't automatically bad guys.

     It really seems to be either/or with so many people. You have suburbanites who see police as infallible do-gooders and acquit them of all sorts of heinous acts. Then you have urban types who see them as roving thugs just looking to beat up kids. Reality is somewhat more complicated than that.

     I will say, at least nobody in the thread is claiming that the police should have "subdued" her using "nondeadly means". That's always a funny one.

[Mister Twister]

And sometimes,  the police suck.......and lie.  We'll never know.

Yes, sometimes they do. I just dislike automatically assuming guilt in a situation where it isn't clear where the fault lies. The police aren't automatically bad guys.

I'd say it's the opposite. People often assume police are automatically the good guys

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

They did it allegedly because "she walked to another home and pointed her weapon at them", so it's not "for no reason".  It may not be a GOOD reason, but it's certainly a reason.  It's not like they just randomly showed up to her house and shot her.

[Franzl]

They did it allegedly because "she walked to another home and pointed her weapon at them", so it's not "for no reason".  It may not be a GOOD reason, but it's certainly a reason.  It's not like they just randomly showed up to her house and shot her.

Much better!

[Grumpier Than Thou]

They did it allegedly because "she walked to another home and pointed her weapon at them", so it's not "for no reason".  It may not be a GOOD reason, but it's certainly a reason.  It's not like they just randomly showed up to her house and shot her.

But the thing is, she hadn't fired any shots. To my knowledge, officers of the law may not use violent force unless the suspect has used it first and has put lives in danger. So while it wasn't for 'no reason,' it certainly wasn't for a good reason.

[dead0man]

I'm pretty sure the police can use violent force if they feel violent force is imminent.  Pointing a gun (or even gun like objects....sometimes even a wallet) at a cop has gotten a lot of people killed.  It's why toy guns have that bright orange tip.

[GMantis]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

If the story that the officers tell is true that hardly counts as 'no reason'. This is a terrible tragedy, but that doesn't automatically make the police guilty.

Consider how often the police lie to protect one of their own, I wouldn't put too much trust in this absurd story.

Yeah, all police are liars and it's totally absurd that an 83 year old woman who is scared someone's invading her house at night could become confused enough to do something like point a gun at the police.

The police could be lying, but the story isn't implausible. Not every case of something bad happening when the police are involved is necessarily their fault - sometimes life just happens to suck.

It's rather implausible lucid enough to call the police and operate a gun, but not enough to understand their warnings (if they were any).

[John Dibble]

It's rather implausible lucid enough to call the police and operate a gun, but not enough to understand their warnings (if they were any).

I know an old lady of about the same age who was perfectly able to drive herself to her hair dresser's place and then call my grandfather (she was his ladyfriend) on her cell phone to complain to him that they weren't open for her 1 o'clock appointment. She was perfectly lucid enough operate a vehicle, find the location without crashing into anything, and then make a phone call to the person she intended to call. That said, she was not lucid enough to realize it was 1 o'clock at night rather than 1 o'clock in the afternoon.

[Badger]

The police aren't automatically bad guys.

Oh, I think that is a safe assumption, Dibble - at least one it would be advisable for all you young people to assume in practice in case you ever have any contact or dealings with this particular vicious gang.

Just

[Badger]

I'm pretty sure the police can use violent force if they feel violent force is imminent.  Pointing a gun (or even gun like objects....sometimes even a wallet) at a cop has gotten a lot of people killed.  It's why toy guns have that bright orange tip.

Correct. There is no need--wisely--for a cop to wait until the gun pointed at them is actually fired before responding with deadly force.

May I suggest we all wait for the investigation as to what actually happened before jumping to pre-determined ideology-based conclusions?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

They did it allegedly because "she walked to another home and pointed her weapon at them", so it's not "for no reason".  It may not be a GOOD reason, but it's certainly a reason.  It's not like they just randomly showed up to her house and shot her.

But the thing is, she hadn't fired any shots. To my knowledge, officers of the law may not use violent force unless the suspect has used it first and has put lives in danger. So while it wasn't for 'no reason,' it certainly wasn't for a good reason.

That is not correct.  A person does not have to have used deadly force before action can be taken.  If there is apprehension of imminent harm, action can be taken.  If the harm is not deadly (or reasonably could be deadly), deadly force cannot be used (If a person is slapping someone or about to slap someone, police can intervene with force but not deadly force); if the harm is deadly, the police can use deadly force.  So if there is imminent deadly harm about to occur (in the police officer's reasonable mind), the police can use deadly force.

[Zanas]

Anyways what would a f***ing 83 year old woman do with a handgun ??!! Are there any people in the US, any at all, that do not own a gun ? I'm coming to a level where I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that a gun is delivered to every kid entering kindergarten and an assault rifle is the present of choice for an 8th birthday... Seriously...

[Franzl]

Anyways what would a f***ing 83 year old woman do with a handgun ??!! Are there any people in the US, any at all, that do not own a gun ? I'm coming to a level where I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that a gun is delivered to every kid entering kindergarten and an assault rifle is the present of choice for an 8th birthday... Seriously...

Don't give the gun nuts more ideas...

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Anyways what would a f***ing 83 year old woman do with a handgun ??!! Are there any people in the US, any at all, that do not own a gun ? I'm coming to a level where I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that a gun is delivered to every kid entering kindergarten and an assault rifle is the present of choice for an 8th birthday... Seriously...

Excessive hyperbole much?

[Link]

Anyways what would a f***ing 83 year old woman do with a handgun ??!!

Ahh... the question that should have been asked in the first post.

Are there any people in the US, any at all, that do not own a gun ? I'm coming to a level where I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that a gun is delivered to every kid entering kindergarten and an assault rifle is the present of choice for an 8th birthday... Seriously...

No.  Despite what gun nuts would have you believe there are literally millions of us who have gone decades without owning a gun and we have never been robbed or maimed.  And yes some of us have even lived in economically depressed areas that contain BROWN PEOPLE!!!  Lock your home and car doors, keep a low profile, and you too can live a safe gun free existence.  Well the cops have guns.  In fact the only times in my life I've been yelled at by an irrational armed person was during a couple of unpleasant interactions with the police.  Other than that it's been a gun free life.

If you can manage to not own a gun, not be involved in the drug trade, and not be in a gang you pretty much reduce your chances of getting shot to nil.  There is still a chance but then you are getting into lighting strike territory.

[morgieb]

It does sound like a reason, but not a good one. The officers responsible should still be charged.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Anyways what would a f***ing 83 year old woman do with a handgun ??!! Are there any people in the US, any at all, that do not own a gun ? I'm coming to a level where I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that a gun is delivered to every kid entering kindergarten and an assault rifle is the present of choice for an 8th birthday... Seriously...

Excessive hyperbole much?

     He's not American, so I give him the benefit of the doubt here. I've heard that Europeans stereotype Americans as being cowboys and gunslingers, actually.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Anyways what would a f***ing 83 year old woman do with a handgun ??!! Are there any people in the US, any at all, that do not own a gun ? I'm coming to a level where I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that a gun is delivered to every kid entering kindergarten and an assault rifle is the present of choice for an 8th birthday... Seriously...

Excessive hyperbole much?

     He's not American, so I give him the benefit of the doubt here. I've heard that Europeans stereotype Americans as being cowboys and gunslingers, actually.

Assault rifle for an 8th birthday?  No... he's being a drama queen.