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Author Topic: Scottish Independence - Treaty of Union in 1707  (Read 851 times)
Scotnat
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« on: October 01, 2012, 02:17:38 pm »
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'By the early eighteenth century, Scotland was a kingdom in crisis. Her economy had been severely weakened by a series of major harvest failures beginning in 1695. The 'Lean Years' of the 1690s were compounded by the catastrophic failure of the Darien Scheme and the attempt to establish a Scottish imperial outlet, the colony of Caledonia, on the Isthmus of Darien. Deliberately sabotaged by the combined efforts of the English East India Company, the international financial markets at Amsterdam and King William, it is estimated that almost 25% of Scotland's total liquid capital was lost in the Darien venture.'

SOURCE: 'The Last Scottish Parliament', BBC, paragraph 1.

'...England retaliated in 1705 with the Alien Act, which declared that, until Scotland accepted the Hanoverian succession, all Scots would be treated as aliens in England and the import of cattle, sheep, coal and linen from Scotland into England would not be allowed; this measure stimulated the Scots into appointing commissioners to treat for union.'

SOURCE: 'Scottish Historical Documents' by Professor Gordon Donaldson, p. 266, ISBN 1-897784-41-4.
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Gary J
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« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2012, 03:56:25 pm »
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There was certainly some hard ball politics and diplomacy, which led to the Treaty of Union.

The English got the security benefit of ensuring that they would not face a hostile northern neighbour, with a different monarch, which could be a potential ally of England's continental enemies. Scotland got the economic benefits of free access to the English and English colonial markets.

Time and events have largely erased the context of the original deal. I presume that the people of Scotland are looking mostly towards the future prospects, rather than the events of the past, when they decide if the Union is to continue.
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Scotnat
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« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2012, 12:44:39 pm »
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'Time and events have largely erased the context of the original deal.'

Not only 'time and events' but perhaps a deliberate policy of suppressing anything which contradicted the view that the British establishment wished to present. I believe that it is quite possible that such a policy was also applied to certain parts of English history.

'I presume that the people of Scotland are looking mostly towards the future prospects, rather than the events of the past, when they decide if the Union is to continue.'

There is a saying that goes something like this -

"Unless we can learn from the mistakes of the past we are destined to repeat them in the future."

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Comrade Sibboleth
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« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2012, 01:17:25 pm »

What is this thread?
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Richard Hoggart 1918-2014
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« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2012, 01:24:21 pm »
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That treaty was aquired as fraudulently as anything Euros ever foisted on Third World rulers, as was pretty much common knowledge at the time.

Quite honestly if I were a Law Lord I would be sorely tempted to declare it null and void.
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PASOK Leader Hashemite
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« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2012, 01:29:54 pm »

What is this thread?

Scottish nkpatel?
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« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2012, 01:51:16 pm »
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That treaty was aquired as fraudulently as anything Euros ever foisted on Third World rulers, as was pretty much common knowledge at the time.

Quite honestly if I were a Law Lord I would be sorely tempted to declare it null and void.

Having recently studied the treaty in class I can wholeheartedly agree with this. In fact the treaty was so unpopular that the Scots wanted to sign the treaty at Edinburgh castle but the infamous Edinburgh mob stopped them and basically barricaded them into a house on the royal mile, in what is now the bella italia toilet. There are also some great Daniel Defoe quotes about how everyone in the first few years hated it with a passion. Its about as relevant for 2014 as what I had for breakfast today, but its a fascinating part of the past.
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jfern
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« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2012, 09:18:42 pm »
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Amazing that here in 2012, there's still no road or railroad through Darien.
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True Federalist
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« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2012, 06:24:13 pm »
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Amazing that here in 2012, there's still no road or railroad through Darien.

The lack of a road has made the Darien gap into a barrier that helps prevent the spread of agricultural pests and diseases between North and South America.  It's awful terrain to build in. There isn't much trade between Panama and Colombia. The area has served as a hiding place for the FARC and other Colombian paramilitary groups. So there are plenty of reasons to not build a road, and not many to build one.
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Benj
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« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2012, 03:51:25 pm »
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Amazing that here in 2012, there's still no road or railroad through Darien.

The lack of a road has made the Darien gap into a barrier that helps prevent the spread of agricultural pests and diseases between North and South America.  It's awful terrain to build in. There isn't much trade between Panama and Colombia. The area has served as a hiding place for the FARC and other Colombian paramilitary groups. So there are plenty of reasons to not build a road, and not many to build one.

Trans-American transport of goods would seem to be a good reason as the Latin American economies (Brazil especially) comes into their own (though perhaps ships would still be cheaper than trains). Also, improving transportation would weaken FARC's hold on the area. But you're right that the incentives now are much weaker than they were, especially back when Panama was part of Colombia.
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True Federalist
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« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2012, 05:31:57 pm »
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Amazing that here in 2012, there's still no road or railroad through Darien.

The lack of a road has made the Darien gap into a barrier that helps prevent the spread of agricultural pests and diseases between North and South America.  It's awful terrain to build in. There isn't much trade between Panama and Colombia. The area has served as a hiding place for the FARC and other Colombian paramilitary groups. So there are plenty of reasons to not build a road, and not many to build one.

Trans-American transport of goods would seem to be a good reason as the Latin American economies (Brazil especially) comes into their own (though perhaps ships would still be cheaper than trains). Also, improving transportation would weaken FARC's hold on the area. But you're right that the incentives now are much weaker than they were, especially back when Panama was part of Colombia.

Even without the multiple border crossings and customs inspections goods would have to endure if they could travel by land between Brazil and the US, cargo ships are cheaper than cargo trucks, albeit slower.  And if speed is your need, cargo planes aren't that much more expensive than trucks per ton-mile, and you can go on a straight path, whereas New York to Rio is fairly circuitous via land.
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Daily Reflections on the Revised Common Lectionary

Bible thumping kept to a minimum unless you go to sleep!
The below comic stars me!
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