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Question: Who won the debate?
President Barack Obama   -33 (23.1%)
Willard "Mitt"Romney   -110 (76.9%)
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Total Voters: 143

Author Topic: Who won the Debate?  (Read 3582 times)
afleitch
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« Reply #150 on: October 04, 2012, 09:15:15 am »
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Probably best to answer this question on Monday. 'Morning after' analysis is always dangerous.
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« Reply #151 on: October 04, 2012, 10:04:07 am »
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Obama didn't bring up the 47% thing because Romney was standing there. You can't use despicable strawmans when the guy is allowed to respond.

How is referring to the guy's own words captured on videotape, completely in context, a "despicable strawman"?

All good points, brittain33. Bringing up 47% would have been a risky gamble; it could easily have backfired and allowed Romney to go on about poverty.

I have to think Obama chose not to go with any of his previous attack lines because Romney's debate prep would have outfitted him with good responses, and Obama would prefer to make those attacks on the campaign trail where Romney can't reply directly, seeing how effective Romney was in this format.
Right, he likes to pretend Romney "wrote off half the country" or "doesn't care about half the country" or "only cares about the rich"  all untruths (which weren't captured on tape, they are completely invented distortions) that Obama pedals in order to construct a strawman.  I personally find hanging your hat on complete distortions unserious and somewhat despicable.   Romney would not only be able/allowed to respond, but he was obviously well prepared and likely would have inflicted a lot of damage on BO.  The president takes huge risks every time he spouts unserious rhetoric because he looks really bad when/if Romney points it out.   
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« Reply #152 on: October 04, 2012, 10:10:22 am »
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Substance aside, Romney came across as more likeable, which is probably the most surprising result of this debate. He made a dynamic and energetic impression, while Obama looked annoyed at times.

I really don't agree with that one and even the instapoll showed an even split on the likability question. To each his own though, I guess. 
Romney came in with something like a 10 to 20 point deficit in likeability and walked out up a point... That means he was more likeable in the debate or he was even but strongly appealing to the segment that changed their opinion of him on the likeability question (which would be a type of win/edge).     
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« Reply #153 on: October 04, 2012, 10:36:30 am »
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He didn't even bring up the "47%" remarks. Romney was clearly much more energized and ready for this.
 They might be able to stop Mitt's momentum in the VP debate next Thursday however.
Joe Biden is going to beat Paul Ryan?? I mean you really can't expect that to be an outcome with a chance of happening...  maybe a 5-10% chance?  Biden needs to try to tie or not lose big, best shot at it.  

I've been watching MSNBC people say things like "He didn't even bring up the "47%" remarks" or "He had so much to go after Romney with".  Also, this weird line about Romney not being specific or "abandoning his plan", than they will mention that Romney was way to wonky to really connect to regular people.  

This is a really interesting thing to observe because you have the 'leftist press' confronted with reality and it seems like their is a chance that they will figure things out, but then they cling to the last weak 'lefty lies' you possibly can.  

Obama didn't bring up the 47% thing because Romney was standing there. You can't use despicable strawmans when the guy is allowed to respond.  The leftists are really saying: "if only Obama would suspend reality and say empty platitudes that magically made everything better, than he would have won."  It would have been like when Obama lied about tax credits for moving a factory over seas... Romney could just set up his expertise on the subject, outline some facts and hammer Obama with a "I don't know what you're talking about."  

Than they are on this tax plan thing as if they actually think Romney hasn't been running on a revenue neutral tax cut/reform plan for over a year and a half.  Do they believe their own propaganda?  Do they really think Romney was cutting taxes on the rich and raising them on the middle class?  

Than they grasp at the flimsiest line about "details".  Romney knew the ins and outs of everything, Romney is a technocrat who has a team of guys running 100 models and simulations on everything, whereas Obama kinda wanders awkwardly without displaying any firm grasp of anything.  

This.

Boiled down to its essence: Some Democrats are still fooled by the hype and unwarranted fears. It's just that.

Romney is the greatest champion of free market economics since Milton Friedman and Ronald Reagan. He is a tolerant conservative on social issues. He is not a monster. Nor is he unprepared, unlike Obama last night.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 10:42:14 am by Politico »Logged

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« Reply #154 on: October 04, 2012, 11:22:43 am »
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Romney is the greatest champion of free market economics since Milton Friedman and Ronald Reagan.

Then many people should be very afraid.
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« Reply #155 on: October 04, 2012, 02:22:37 pm »
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Today's post-debate coverage has been less unfavorable to the president than I had expected. What I've seen has focused more on how policy-oriented / boring / confusing to undecided voters the entire event was than on anything else, and some reports have really torn into a few of Romney's claims.
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« Reply #156 on: October 04, 2012, 02:25:23 pm »
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Romney clearly won the initial debate (though he did come off an unlikeable and bullying, I'm not sure that's worse than coming off as disinterested and tired). If the Obama campaign, which if nothing else is well-organized and terrific at pushing a message, can turn this around over the weekend to a discussion of Romney's ninety minutes of non-stop lies and fabrication, they can still win the election.
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« Reply #157 on: October 04, 2012, 02:52:05 pm »
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Romney crushed him. Loved it. I avoided the forum last night expecting this poll to say Obama won the debate 70%-30%. It was the other way around.
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« Reply #158 on: October 04, 2012, 03:15:34 pm »
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Today's post-debate coverage has been less unfavorable to the president than I had expected. What I've seen has focused more on how policy-oriented / boring / confusing to undecided voters the entire event was than on anything else, and some reports have really torn into a few of Romney's claims.

Yeah, the media coverage has been a lot less sensationalist about Romney's victory than I'd expected. It's...actually...almost even-handed and fact-based coverage, so far as I've seen? Color me pleasantly surprised.
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« Reply #159 on: October 04, 2012, 03:41:06 pm »
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I think people are supremely over-stating the greatness of Romney's performance and equally under-stating the disaster that was Obama's. Ironically, it was Obama who had a Windows Vista powered robot-like malfunction. Paraphrasing:

Obama: "Your tax plan cuts taxes by 5$ trillion for the wealthy"

Romney "Untrue. (proceeds to explain how the claim is false)".

Obama: (shaking his head, eyes a million miles away): "Your tax plan cuts taxes for the wealthy by 5$ trillion, how can you do that and reduce the deficit?".

Mitt Romney, to my surprise, was able to deconstruct Obama's strongest talking points with relative ease. I came away with the impression that Obama had not prepared for this debate beyond memorizing a few half-baked talking points and applying them to keywords.

That said; Mitt Romney's performance was mostly safe and when judged on it's own merit rather than in the context of competition with the President's - it was simply an above-average outing, good but not stellar or memorable.

As a Republican, I'm worried that this may have been his Mondale-Reagan moment. The narrative of 1984 was turned on it's head when the wonky, boring Mondale made a fool out of the typically charismatic, well-liked Reagan. Then Reagan got his act together in the second debate and...

In closing, Republicans need to remember that we just witnessed Obama at his worst vs. Romney at his constant. It would be ill advised for Romney to assume that he will be across the stage from the same person in the next debate.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 04:00:11 pm by stegosaurus »Logged

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« Reply #160 on: October 04, 2012, 03:51:55 pm »
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As a Republican, I'm worried that this may have been his Mondale-Reagan moment. The narrative of 1984 was turned on it's head when the wonky, boring Mondale made a fool out of the typically charismatic, well-liked Reagan. Then Reagan got his act together in the second debate and...

In closing, Republicans need to remember that we just witnessed Obama at his worst vs. Romney at his constant. It would be ill advised for Romney to assume that he will be across the stage from the person in the next debate.

Thats actually a really good point. The standards are so low, so even if the President comes in and matches Romney's performance --its going to be seen as a win.
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« Reply #161 on: October 04, 2012, 04:07:28 pm »
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Romney perfromed somewhat better than Obama in the debate in my opinion.
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« Reply #162 on: October 04, 2012, 04:15:40 pm »
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Romney crushed him. Loved it. I avoided the forum last night expecting this poll to say Obama won the debate 70%-30%. It was the other way around.
The thing is that if both did normal then you would see 70-30 thing, as yes there is a high proportion of liberals on the forum, but Obama didn't do that well, but at the same time, Romney didn't 'crush' him, but did have an advantage.
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« Reply #163 on: October 04, 2012, 04:16:21 pm »
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As a Republican, I'm worried that this may have been his Mondale-Reagan moment. The narrative of 1984 was turned on it's head when the wonky, boring Mondale made a fool out of the typically charismatic, well-liked Reagan. Then Reagan got his act together in the second debate and...

In closing, Republicans need to remember that we just witnessed Obama at his worst vs. Romney at his constant. It would be ill advised for Romney to assume that he will be across the stage from the person in the next debate.

Thats actually a really good point. The standards are so low, so even if the President comes in and matches Romney's performance --its going to be seen as a win.

Exactly. Speaking of low standards; I wonder how much confidence his advisers placed in his ability to properly prepare. Team Obama was unusually forceful in tempering expectations for this debate. Flash forward to the debate where Obama delivers an unenthusiastic, unprepared performance. This means one of two things:

1) Barack Obama simply lacks depth of knowledge (doubtful).
2) Barack Obama's big weakness is playing defense and answering criticism, and the his staff came to grips with this too late. (more likely).

From a Republican perspective, I worry that with more time and emphasis, Obama can master the art of properly responding to direct criticism and apply that mastery to his typical style. That is not a given, however. In short, it's entirely dependent on the degree of Obama's mental fortitude. It's always been said that he is cool and unshakable, we will know for sure in the weeks to come.
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« Reply #164 on: October 04, 2012, 08:11:16 pm »
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I forgot to mention in my earlier post how weird it is that Mitt Romney's mention of Big Bird seems to have been the most memorable moment of the debate.
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« Reply #165 on: October 04, 2012, 09:16:18 pm »
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Mitt won the debate but will lose the consequences.
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« Reply #166 on: October 04, 2012, 10:09:57 pm »
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As a Republican, I'm worried that this may have been his Mondale-Reagan moment. The narrative of 1984 was turned on it's head when the wonky, boring Mondale made a fool out of the typically charismatic, well-liked Reagan. Then Reagan got his act together in the second debate and...

In closing, Republicans need to remember that we just witnessed Obama at his worst vs. Romney at his constant. It would be ill advised for Romney to assume that he will be across the stage from the same person in the next debate.

I actually have to agree with this. Note that I don't support Mitt Romney though. I think in all honesty, the President may have just not been wanting to deal with the debate on his anniversary. But at the same time, I tend to think one must put aside personal feelings when it comes to a job that you have to do. In Obama's case, the hardest job of all. I don't think Obama can truly afford another flub like this though. It could be like how it's been pointed out now, it COULD be a Reagan-Mondale moment.

I think if one thing's for sure, we've seen President Obama learn from mistakes in the past, and to Governor Romney's credit I think his fierce primary battle helped prepare him for President Obama. Now, maybe I'm jumping the gun here, but I think we can agree that the VP debates are gonna end with Congressman Ryan likely beating Vice President Biden. Again, I'm probably jumping the gun here, I'm not entirely sure how Bush41 held up against Mondale's VP so I'm not sure.

But I think Obama's got a chance to solidify a steady lead if he can project energy into the debates.
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« Reply #167 on: October 04, 2012, 10:35:39 pm »
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I'm expecting Biden to beat Ryan... just a gut instinct. That was the same one that expected Romney to win yesterday.
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« Reply #168 on: October 05, 2012, 12:53:41 am »
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I think people are supremely over-stating the greatness of Romney's performance and equally under-stating the disaster that was Obama's. Ironically, it was Obama who had a Windows Vista powered robot-like malfunction. Paraphrasing:

Obama: "Your tax plan cuts taxes by 5$ trillion for the wealthy"

Romney "Untrue. (proceeds to explain how the claim is false)".

Obama: (shaking his head, eyes a million miles away): "Your tax plan cuts taxes for the wealthy by 5$ trillion, how can you do that and reduce the deficit?".

Mitt Romney, to my surprise, was able to deconstruct Obama's strongest talking points with relative ease. I came away with the impression that Obama had not prepared for this debate beyond memorizing a few half-baked talking points and applying them to keywords.

That said; Mitt Romney's performance was mostly safe and when judged on it's own merit rather than in the context of competition with the President's - it was simply an above-average outing, good but not stellar or memorable.

As a Republican, I'm worried that this may have been his Mondale-Reagan moment. The narrative of 1984 was turned on it's head when the wonky, boring Mondale made a fool out of the typically charismatic, well-liked Reagan. Then Reagan got his act together in the second debate and...

In closing, Republicans need to remember that we just witnessed Obama at his worst vs. Romney at his constant. It would be ill advised for Romney to assume that he will be across the stage from the same person in the next debate.

While I'm not so sure Romney's performance was overrated, I do agree that Romney shouldn't get complacent.  Obama will not doubt be more prepared next time, and use a lot less negative body language, but in terms of substantive point-making, Obama is not likely to improve dramatically. 

As for Romney's performance being overstated, I have to disagree.  He answered the president's attacks effectively, made his points clearly, and looked good while he did it.  Admittedly, I missed the first half-hour of the debate, but I thought he did a good job from what I saw, and from what I hear the first half-hour was even better.  I can understand Republicans overselling it, but even Democratic observers gave Romney the win for the night.  I almost couldn't believe this:

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/10/03/californians-watch-as-obama-romney-clash-on-economy-in-1st-debate/

The sample group, which was known to be Democratic-leaning, favored Romney's performance by 14 points!  Admittedly there was a large undecided segment (about 20 percent), but the result is still very good for Romney. 

I'm sure Obama will improve next time, but I'm more worried about the VP debate next Thursday.  Biden is an experienced debater, and will doubtless try to derail Ryan with all manner of tricks.  Then again, Ryan has charisma and a good command of the issues.  I suspect that Biden will try to push him into a corner on abortion or other social issues, but Ryan is smart enough to avoid it if he's prepared properly.  I'll be happy if Ryan makes it out with a draw. 
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« Reply #169 on: October 05, 2012, 01:28:42 am »
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Quote
1) Barack Obama simply lacks depth of knowledge (doubtful).

Obama is terrible when he's off his teleprompter. I expect that they'll give him an earpiece in the second debate like a hearing aid so that he can just say whatever they tell him to say.
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« Reply #170 on: October 05, 2012, 10:42:55 am »
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1) Barack Obama simply lacks depth of knowledge (doubtful).

Obama is terrible when he's off his teleprompter. I expect that they'll give him an earpiece in the second debate like a hearing aid so that he can just say whatever they tell him to say.

His address after winning the Iowa caucus in 2008 was off teleprompter.
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« Reply #171 on: October 05, 2012, 11:32:49 am »
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Quote
1) Barack Obama simply lacks depth of knowledge (doubtful).

Obama is terrible when he's off his teleprompter. I expect that they'll give him an earpiece in the second debate like a hearing aid so that he can just say whatever they tell him to say.

His address after winning the Iowa caucus in 2008 was off teleprompter.

boy that's thinking on your feet.  All those tough questions and challenges from your opponent... O' wait, never mind
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« Reply #172 on: October 05, 2012, 11:39:52 am »
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Quote
1) Barack Obama simply lacks depth of knowledge (doubtful).

Obama is terrible when he's off his teleprompter. I expect that they'll give him an earpiece in the second debate like a hearing aid so that he can just say whatever they tell him to say.

His address after winning the Iowa caucus in 2008 was off teleprompter.

boy that's thinking on your feet.  All those tough questions and challenges from your opponent... O' wait, never mind
Yes, but this was his worst debate by far, and the fact that he messed up doesn't mean that he is bad without a prompter when he has done well without the prompt
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« Reply #173 on: October 05, 2012, 07:55:11 pm »
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Quote
1) Barack Obama simply lacks depth of knowledge (doubtful).

Obama is terrible when he's off his teleprompter. I expect that they'll give him an earpiece in the second debate like a hearing aid so that he can just say whatever they tell him to say.

His address after winning the Iowa caucus in 2008 was off teleprompter.

boy that's thinking on your feet.  All those tough questions and challenges from your opponent... O' wait, never mind
Yes, but this was his worst debate by far, and the fact that he messed up doesn't mean that he is bad without a prompter when he has done well without the prompt

If you want to see him on his feet watch the 2008 debates or a press conference.
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« Reply #174 on: October 05, 2012, 08:32:45 pm »
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I was about to get outraged by Politico's comment comparing Mitt "I was for the Stimulus before I was against it" Romney to Milton Friedman, but then I realized he's a troll and brushed the dirt off my shoulder.
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