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Author Topic: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Law'd)  (Read 7854 times)
Sbane
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« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2012, 07:27:05 pm »
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I would suggest seeing what the GM says about the costs before moving forward.

Giving Amnesty to illegals is one of the most insane proposals out there. I understand compassion but it is a cyclical, self-fullfilling prophecy. I understand compassion and I understand idealism, but it is essential to understand the reality of the situation. 1) Every country retains the sovereign rights to control what comes across their borders. 2) Choosing not to do so is just as much an assertive action as choosing to do so. 3) The impact of this decision not is a distortion on the economy. 4) This distortion is manifested in wage depression which hurts the working poor. 5) Nothing in 3 or 4 should be taken to mean that immigration hurts the economy, it helps, but it has to be controlled and regulated. 6) No amount of idealism will change the fact that there is a certain numerical threshold for the number of new immigrants that society can absorb at one time, and crossing that limit will do more to harm your idealistic vision then help it. That number is a mystery but I am not inclined to tempt fate. As much as believe in "country exceptionalism", such is limited to certain things and just like no country is exceptional enough to not have to pay its bills forever, no country can escape these limits in terms of population upheaval. That leads to 7) With just legal immigration you can bring in people within an acceptable range, and not risk that.

That said, if you put enough standards and qualifications, I can accept making exceptions for the children since they weren't the decision maker at the time. The standards must be tight, they must have to pass whatever schooling they are in and/or serve honorably for the entirety of their military service. Mass cheating of the system is indicative of a disturbing process whereby people who have cheated the system once (though not by their choice), continue to have no other desire but to cheat the system when the opporunity affords them. That shouldn't be rewarded. As for having no standards at all, see what I posted above. I just listened to "Crazy on You" by Heart, I can't think of a better description for what Redalgo's amendment is doing to us. Tongue

It may be in the morning before I can process the amendment.

Want to pass E-verify? I'd support you, in exchange for amnesty for everyone who came before 2011.
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« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2012, 07:32:35 pm »
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Aye. I support blanket amnesty, so I would go further than this amendment, but with E-verify and perhaps greater border control. Let's make it happen people.
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« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2012, 07:35:47 pm »
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This amendment defeats the purpose of the entire bill.  I urge senators who have not yet voted to oppose this.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 07:55:23 pm by Senator Scott »Logged

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« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2012, 01:34:53 am »
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I want to know how many illegals are currently in the country, before I make any agreement with you, sbane.  It may be significant enough to be a concern, say 2 to 3 million, but not the 10 to 15 million people that have rendered the "you can't deport 12 million people" as a practicality. The gov't deports 300,000 illegals or so every year in RL, and twice as many "self-deport" because of economic hardships caused by the recession. There is no practical hindrence and thus with the exception of say the kids who didn't have a say and such, I see no reasonable justification for mass amnesty. If you do that, you are basically, sending a message, that Atlasia will never deport anyone nor will it enforce its own laws. I didn't realize "Atlasian exceptionalism" was so big a force among liberals in this game. Tongue Because clearly you must think so in order to hold so idealistic and completely unrealistic a position.

I have already answered the question of who I wouldn't deport, how about you answer who you would, sbane? Tongue

I will process Scott's reasonable amendment as soon as this vote is done, hopefully with a negative result.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 01:37:04 am by Senator North Carolina Yankee »Logged

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« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2012, 04:31:14 am »
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Nay.
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Sbane
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« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2012, 01:39:58 pm »
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I think getting rid of the pull (jobs) will sort things out on their own over time. People already here should be allowed to stay BUT we must prevent future illegals coming over to take jobs.
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« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2012, 01:42:03 pm »
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Also amnesty shouldn't mean automatic citizenship. It should be like a green card with possibility of naturalization after a certain period of time.
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« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2012, 11:16:54 am »
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Scott, you posted in the GM thread, have you tried PMing him directly?


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« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2012, 04:04:07 pm »
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There's no point in me giving an estimate as long as we don't know the status of the amendment, right?  Because it would be different.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 04:30:29 pm by shua, gm »Logged

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« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2012, 07:25:40 pm »
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Edit: Eh... I originally voted Nay, but I'm really not sure. If my vote going to be critical here? Because part of me says to vote Aye, part of me says to vote Nay..
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 07:28:57 pm by Marokai Béliqueux »Logged

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« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2012, 12:40:40 am »
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Define "Originally voted Nay", I don't recall any vote having been cast here by any one name Marokai Blue.

We have procedures that allow for that it is called, "abstain". We have a man in RL who became President by doing that all the time. Tongue
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« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2012, 01:44:26 am »
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I voted nay and then edited it out, Yankee. Tongue

I suppose I will vote... Nay.
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« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2012, 01:57:46 am »
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Vote on amendment 51:14:

Aye (2): Franzl and sbane
Nay (6): Ben, Hagrid, Marokai Blue, NC Yankee, NVTowsend and Scott
Abstain (0):

Didn't Vote (2): Bacon King and Redalgo

With six nays, the amendment has failed, no vote change period is in order for amendments.


Marokai did something usefull for once. Tongue
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« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2012, 08:48:39 am »
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An amendment:
Quote
      A BILL

      To provide a path to citizenship for offsprings of undocumented migrants

      Be it enacted by the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia assembled.

      SECTION 1. TITLE

      This legislation may be cited as the ‘Development, Relief, and Education Act for Alien Minors’ or the ‘DREAM Act.’

      SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

      Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrive to Atlasia will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

      • The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
      • The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
      • The undocumented migrant undergoes a medical examination and submits biometric information
      • The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school with a minimum GPA of 3.10 in the classes taught in the Departments of English, Mathematics, History, and Science and without any history of suspensions or expulsions
      • The undocumented migrant demonstrates the ability to read, write, and speak English and demonstrates knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, principles, and form of government of the Republic of Atlasia
      • The undocumented migrant serves a period of at least two years in the Atlasian military and, if discharged, receives an honorary discharge, or completes four years at an institution of higher learning
      • The undocumented migrant lives in the Republic of Atlasia at least five years prior to the enactment of this legislation

      SECTION 3. RESTRICTIONS

      1.) Citizenship status possibilities will be revoked from any undocumented migrant who has done the following:

      • Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors
      • Is likely to become a public charge
      • Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting
      • Has committed marriage fraud
      • Has abused a student visa
      • Has engaged in persecution, or;
      • Poses a public health risk

      2.) Undocumented migrants that are guilty of the previously mentioned activities may be subject to deportation or detainment.  Penalties shall be determined in a court of law.

      SECTION 4. IMPLEMENTATION

      $25 billion will be allocated to the Department of Internal Affairs for implementation of this law.[/list][/list]
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      Franzl
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      « Reply #39 on: October 10, 2012, 11:45:21 am »
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      It's absurd to base a residency permit on school grades at all. I'm not willing to make even further restrictions.
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      Marokai Besieged
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      « Reply #40 on: October 10, 2012, 02:08:37 pm »
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      I tend to agree with Franzl, and I won't vote for this bill if it has a residency requirement based in school grades, let alone even more strict restrictions in that category.
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      Emperor Scott
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      « Reply #41 on: October 10, 2012, 05:44:00 pm »
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      There should be a GPA that's high enough so that beneficiaries have the incentive to not only get the education, but do well in getting the education so that they may go to a respectable college and not put themselves (and likely their families) in an endless cycle of poverty that will often result.  I can support a slight reduction in the GPA requirement, but not the removal of it.  Ben's amendment is friendly.
      « Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 06:09:44 pm by Senator Scott »Logged

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      « Reply #42 on: October 10, 2012, 06:08:55 pm »
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      I object.
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      Franzl
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      « Reply #43 on: October 10, 2012, 07:39:12 pm »
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      There should be a GPA that's high enough so that beneficiaries have the incentive to not only get the education, but do well in getting the education so that they may go to a respectable college and not put themselves (and likely their families) in an endless cycle of poverty that will often result.  I can support a slight reduction in the GPA requirement, but not the removal of it.  Ben's amendment is friendly.

      This is an unreasonable and discriminatory requirement. I may still vote for the final bill despite that, but I very strongly disagree.
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      Emperor Scott
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      « Reply #44 on: October 10, 2012, 08:02:03 pm »
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      There should be a GPA that's high enough so that beneficiaries have the incentive to not only get the education, but do well in getting the education so that they may go to a respectable college and not put themselves (and likely their families) in an endless cycle of poverty that will often result.  I can support a slight reduction in the GPA requirement, but not the removal of it.  Ben's amendment is friendly.

      This is an unreasonable and discriminatory requirement. I may still vote for the final bill despite that, but I very strongly disagree.

      There is nothing discriminatory about the requirement at all.  I find that claim highly ironic, given what this bill aims to do.  If the bill doesn't provide a strong incentive for immigrants to perform exceptionally well in high school, it won't serve its purpose and they will be less likely to have successful lives or benefit at all from the system.  This is an issue that should be addressed.  Again, I am willing to lower the GPA requirement or, if possible, measure the achievements using a different method -- I, personally, am a tad pessimistic about the credibility of grades in the first place -- but we need to use what we've got.
      « Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 08:07:54 pm by Senator Scott »Logged

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      « Reply #45 on: October 10, 2012, 08:26:37 pm »
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      It's pretty vague. High schools have core history classes and optional history classes. This language would not account for the fact that one student might take one history class and another might take four. What if one student took a ton of math or science classes, which are often more difficult to get a high mark in?

      It's harder to standardize the specifics. I think we should just keep a generic GPA requirement.
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      « Reply #46 on: October 10, 2012, 08:29:21 pm »
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      It's pretty vague. High schools have core history classes and optional history classes. This language would not account for the fact that one student might take one history class and another might take four. What if one student took a ton of math or science classes, which are often more difficult to get a high mark in?

      It's harder to standardize the specifics. I think we should just keep a generic GPA requirement.

      Good point, I didn't consider this.  This type of assessment will be difficult since not all high schools are uniform in terms of classes and electives.

      Sorry Ben, but the amendment is unfriendly.
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      « Reply #47 on: October 10, 2012, 10:41:36 pm »
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      We need core requirements.  We can't have students getting Cs in Math, but As in Art.  There needs to be distinctions.
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      « Reply #48 on: October 10, 2012, 10:49:40 pm »
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      That would translate into the general GPA. By the same token, we don't want to be punishing students who want to specialize in certain areas. As long as they have their math prerequesites, what's wrong with taking art?

      The problem is, regions will have their own core requirements. Schools will offer different classes. How do we standardize this in a fair way? I don't think we can.
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      « Reply #49 on: October 11, 2012, 12:45:27 am »
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      Quote from: Amendent 51:15 by Scott
      SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

      Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the United States Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

      Sponsor Feedback: Unknown
      Status: Dependent on Feedback
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