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| | |-+  SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Law'd)
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Author Topic: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Law'd)  (Read 8499 times)
Scott
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« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2012, 12:46:32 am »
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Friendly, of course. Tongue
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Franzl
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« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2012, 03:33:50 am »
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We need core requirements.  We can't have students getting Cs in Math, but As in Art.  There needs to be distinctions.

I see no reason to have such a requirement.

I objectt your amendment, FTR.
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2012, 12:46:34 am »
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Oh yea this is Scott's bill. After a deluge of so much of Marokai's stuff, I tend to automatically assume everything is his. Unfortunate habit. Tongue


Quote from: Amendent 51:15 by Scott
SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the United States Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

Sponsor Feedback: Origination
Status: Senators have 24 hours to object.
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Franzl
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« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2012, 03:16:42 am »
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I object.
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2012, 01:14:55 pm »
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May I know the reasons?
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Franzl
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« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2012, 01:18:45 pm »
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May I know the reasons?

I don't wish to restrict the residency rights to people before a certain date.
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shua
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« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2012, 10:47:46 pm »
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cost estimate:

$.5 billion    administration, biometric systems
$.6 billion    military pay
$2.5  billion    public services (federal)
$2.1  billion    public services (regional)
-$1.1 billion    tax revenues (federal)
-$.6 billion    tax revenues (regional)

$ 4 billion net expenses  ($2.5 B federal, $1.5 B regional)
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2012, 11:57:06 pm »
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Quote from: Amendent 51:15 by Scott
SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the United States Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

Sponsor Feedback: Origination
Status: Objection entered by Senator Franzl, this amendment is now at vote so please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.


I'll check back at Christmas, since thati s likely how long it will take you lazy bums to vote on this.


Damn my finger still hurts!
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Scott
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« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2012, 12:04:00 am »
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Aye.  This is a crucial part of the legislation that I feel must be included in order for it to be practical.

Thanks, Shua, though I'm not sure if the estimate would change if this amendment were to pass.  We also need to determine if costs would actually be reduced, if not now, but in the long run, as the real DREAM Act was estimated to do.  Do you think this bill is capable of doing that or can be changed in a way so that it would do that?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 01:00:33 am by Senator Scott »Logged
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« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2012, 12:22:38 am »
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AYE!
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2012, 12:27:00 am »
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Aye
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« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2012, 03:36:49 am »
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NAY
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« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2012, 07:11:10 am »
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Nay
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« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2012, 04:34:15 pm »
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Aye
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Obama High's debate team:

"Now let me be clear...I...I...um...uh...now let me be clear.  I strongly condemn the affirmative in the strongest possible terms, and I am closely monitoring their arguments.  Let me be clear on this."
Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #64 on: October 15, 2012, 04:51:59 pm »
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This again is so difficult for me, as my own personal immigration politics are deeply conflicted. It is only fair and humane to allow those already here to work toward permanent residency, but I am uncomfortable with the idea that that sort of system will extend in perpetuity. We need a very serious and radical undertaking in fixing out immigration system more broadly, but until then, I suppose we should allow this system to be in place for all.

I'll vote Nay on the amendment. But don't take that as a statement of a sort of laissez-faire immigration politics.
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« Reply #65 on: October 15, 2012, 06:06:50 pm »
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If the amendment doesn't pass, then essentially this bill will create a de facto open border policy and therefore we would be demonstrating a lack of interest in enforcing our laws rather than in giving people another chance.  The system will already be in place 'for all' in the sense that it will be there for all undocumented immigrants currently living in Atlasia.  I understand if there is a need to simplify the process for those who aspire to migrate here, and would support changes to the bill that would do this, but we cannot simply create an open border policy by not putting any kind of restrictions on this.  Perhaps those who don't like this amendment can offer an alternative or a compromise on this?  I should mention that originally I was going to include provisions for enhanced border security, but I decided against it because I doubted that it would pass given the nature of the Senate.  The fact that we can't agree on a modest proposal like this is very disappointing.

I urge the senators that have already voted nay to reconsider, and I hope those that have not yet voted are in the affirmative on this.  I will work for the defeat of this bill if it ends up detracting from its principles the way those in the far-left apparently want it to do.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 10:26:14 pm by Senator Scott »Logged
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« Reply #66 on: October 15, 2012, 08:57:01 pm »
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Am I on the far left or am I a tea partier! Which is it! Angry
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« Reply #67 on: October 16, 2012, 01:14:55 pm »
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Some Libertarians are pretty weak on the border, perhaps you a Ron Paul Tea Partier. Tongue


Giving a guarrateed, indefinate free pass to "future" violators of a law you plan to continue, is perhaps the most insane idea I have ever heard of. I too support reforming and simplifying the legal immigration system, but sorry Marokai, you are in fact creating not a laissez faire immigration policy, but you are openly admitting that we have no immigration policy, that the legalities and circumstances of person's entry in the country are irrelevant. To someone as a protectionist as you yourself have shown over the years (Remember the buy America provisions? Atleast Franzl was on the side of sanity on that issue, back then, if memory serves me. Tongue),  such should not even be a consideration. Now, on the other hand, one can be a free trader (espeically since that means different things to different people) and still support border security and regulating (like safety inspections, making sure there are no nukes in the containers, etc etc) the flow of goods in such a trade system (if it means a economic policy decision rather than a philosophical view of gov't. Hence why libertarians see a contradiction). For practical reasons though protectionism and complete open borders are impossible, because you are conceding the ability to enforce the trade policy when you surrender your immigration policy.

As for Scott said about border security not being able to pass the Senate, so he didn't include it. WTF!!! Has the desire on the part of Democrats in RL to pander to Hispanics and lock the GOP out of power driven the all of them to completely surrender any sense of reality regarding borders for political gain? Have you convinced yourself in a conspiratorial fashion, akin to birtherism and trutherism, that it is "just another racist code word"? It is a constitutional obligation to sustain sovereign control of the country's borders, otherwise you can't protect the people.  Control does mean a wall, it is a door that we can than determine whne to close an open it.  

I would continue, but I am tired.

THe vote turnout here sucks! Tongue
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Scott
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« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2012, 01:54:53 pm »
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FTR, it's not really that I was "pandering" to anyone per se, but I just proposed what we have now for practical reasons since, as we can all plainly see, immigration policies aren't particularly easy to pass in this body if they have the slightest regulations or conditions attached, kind of like abortion. Wink Tongue
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« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2012, 02:20:11 pm »
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To explain myself:

I have no intention of changing my vote here. Just as I agree with birthright citizenship as a principle, for the same reason, I don't believe in punishing people who came to Atlasia as minors with their parents and are not responsible for the illegal behavior. (Now that I think about it, that does mean I would be willing to support an addition stating that they must come to Atlasia with parents or legal guardians to qualify, otherwise any minor could go across the border himself and claim residency status.)

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« Reply #70 on: October 17, 2012, 01:22:08 am »
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FTR, it's not really that I was "pandering" to anyone per se, but I just proposed what we have now for practical reasons since, as we can all plainly see, immigration policies aren't particularly easy to pass in this body if they have the slightest regulations or conditions attached, kind of like abortion. Wink Tongue

I wasn't insinuating anything about you personally. I knew what you were saying and that is what I was talking about with the pandering comment. And yes, it is just the like the abortion bill. RL politics is crossing in and making too many of this Senate too uncomfortable to engage and do their jobs. You were responding to that obvious situation when making that decision not to include border security. My tirade was against that situation existing in the first place.

To explain myself:

I have no intention of changing my vote here. Just as I agree with birthright citizenship as a principle, for the same reason, I don't believe in punishing people who came to Atlasia as minors with their parents and are not responsible for the illegal behavior. (Now that I think about it, that does mean I would be willing to support an addition stating that they must come to Atlasia with parents or legal guardians to qualify, otherwise any minor could go across the border himself and claim residency status.)

We don't have a disagreement regarding the children born here to illegal aliens or even on giving amnesty to the children who crossed with their parents. The key though there is the past tense, you have to time limit to certain period otherwise you create a permenent incentive for parents to continue come because their children can get legal status once they cross.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 01:23:50 am by Senator North Carolina Yankee »Logged

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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #71 on: October 17, 2012, 01:25:50 am »
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This vote ends tomorrow night. As usual, the turnout is a terrible. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #72 on: October 17, 2012, 10:36:27 pm »
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I urge the senators that have already voted nay to reconsider, and I hope those that have not yet voted are in the affirmative on this.  I will work for the defeat of this bill if it ends up detracting from its principles the way those in the far-left apparently want it to do.

What I would like is amnesty for all non-criminal illegal aliens in exchange for E-Verify. Hell, throw in more border control as well. I don't see anything wrong with that. And Yankee, I doubt you will see a lot of opposition to that in RL either. It's laws that empower racists, such as AZ SB 1070, that are troubling.
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« Reply #73 on: October 18, 2012, 12:58:17 am »
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Just so we don't forget, Ben's amendment is next.
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #74 on: October 18, 2012, 01:12:13 am »
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I urge the senators that have already voted nay to reconsider, and I hope those that have not yet voted are in the affirmative on this.  I will work for the defeat of this bill if it ends up detracting from its principles the way those in the far-left apparently want it to do.

What I would like is amnesty for all non-criminal illegal aliens in exchange for E-Verify. Hell, throw in more border control as well. I don't see anything wrong with that. And Yankee, I doubt you will see a lot of opposition to that in RL either. It's laws that empower racists, such as AZ SB 1070, that are troubling.


Ever heard of the Chamber of Commerce? Tongue Big Agra doesn't like it either.

AZ SB 1070 was a serious tactical mistake motivated by momentary fear and anger over the killing of that rancher in 2010, and the political calculations of an almost certain primary loser in Governor Jan Brewer. If they had stuck with just e-verify and beefed up police and other enforcement in the Southern part of the state, they would have been far better off. Arizona hispanics haven't been very sympathetic to illegals either, with 47% of them having voted for something similar to Prop 187 in 2004, banning benefits and such. Turning them against the immigration enforcement crowd was a big mistake.

I don't think the Senate is capable of handling the indepth detail of a broad ranging comprehensive immigration bill with an election coming that will drowned activity even further (I got a scheme to respond to this by the way, but people would have to cooperate with me). And I haven't changed my opinion regarding mass direct amnesty, though an exit amnesty to provide an alternative to "self-deportation" would be a different story. But we have had this discussion before on a different board and somehow I doubt you have changed your mind either, so lets not get into that again. Tongue

Lets keep this effort simple. Provide amnesty for the children brought in by their parents, when they weren't capable of making a choice, provided they contribute to society by successfully graduating from college, or by serving honorably in the military. Lets make sure there are tough standards to ensure that no one defrauds this or that it becomes a magnet for furtuer illegal immigration into the country. Those are my standards for supporting a Dream Act.
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