In New Hampshire, transgender 3rd grader is now allowed to go to school as girl
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  In New Hampshire, transgender 3rd grader is now allowed to go to school as girl
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Author Topic: In New Hampshire, transgender 3rd grader is now allowed to go to school as girl  (Read 4756 times)
Snowstalker Mk. II
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« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2012, 10:48:34 PM »

Physically and biologically, this is a boy. In gym class or when it's necessary to have fitness standards or if the genders are split up for something in health class, he should be on the "boy" side. I have nothing against him, but the reality is that he is male until he wishes to have gender reassignment surgery as an adult.
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Spanish Moss
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« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2012, 12:49:42 AM »

Physically and biologically, this is a boy. In gym class or when it's necessary to have fitness standards or if the genders are split up for something in health class, he should be on the "boy" side. I have nothing against him, but the reality is that he is male until he wishes to have gender reassignment surgery as an adult.

As a minor it makes virtually no difference, and those who start hormone treatment on the onset of puberty (when the sexes really begin to differentiate clearly) essentially develop as the opposite biological sex with the genitals being the only exception.  So I see no real basis in your argument.
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Spanish Moss
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« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2012, 12:52:08 AM »

Is not a panacea. Sex has much greater of a biological basis than merely having a penis, vagina, or certain hormones. The day they can get someone who was born male pop out babies is the day I'll consider it as such. That day might actually come one day, and it would probably be a good thing, but it hasn't happened yet.

So the entire basis is based on the ability of trans-women to have children?  What about women born infertile, are they, then, less of women?

Your arguments are making less and less sense, and, in my interpretation, you seem only to be backpedaling on clearly inappropriate and transphobic statements.
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koenkai
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« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2012, 01:09:23 AM »

So the entire basis is based on the ability of trans-women to have children?  What about women born infertile, are they, then, less of women?

In a way. It's certainly an extremely unfortunate outcome that severely damages their potential future relationships. Much like gender identity disorder.
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« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2012, 01:24:44 AM »
« Edited: September 29, 2012, 01:28:08 AM by Ghost_white »

Physically and biologically, this is a boy. In gym class or when it's necessary to have fitness standards or if the genders are split up for something in health class, he should be on the "boy" side. I have nothing against him, but the reality is that he is male until he wishes to have gender reassignment surgery as an adult.

As a minor it makes virtually no difference, and those who start hormone treatment on the onset of puberty (when the sexes really begin to differentiate clearly) essentially develop as the opposite biological sex with the genitals being the only exception.  So I see no real basis in your argument.
that's a massive difference and things like estrogen have more wide reaching implications for your health than just permanent sterility. you know how many trans people have hair loss or muscle atrophy (actually males do around shoulders it's a tell tell sign) or incontinence or other horrifying side effects when they start hormone treatment? i'm bi and i've been on anti depressants and other meds over the years. that has caused so many side effects for me i can't even imagine taking hormones at 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 years old while suffering from major body issues.
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Spanish Moss
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« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2012, 01:27:20 AM »

So the entire basis is based on the ability of trans-women to have children?  What about women born infertile, are they, then, less of women?

In a way. It's certainly an extremely unfortunate outcome that severely damages their potential future relationships. Much like gender identity disorder.

Do you know any transsexuals?  I know quite a few, none of them are single.  Not one, trans-female, or trans-male.  Per capita, I know far more cisgendered individuals.  Your argument there holds no weight.

And any trans person would find you calling it "gender identity disorder" condescending and degrading, it's "gender dysphoria".
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shua
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« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2012, 01:28:17 AM »

Physically and biologically, this is a boy. In gym class or when it's necessary to have fitness standards or if the genders are split up for something in health class, he should be on the "boy" side. I have nothing against him, but the reality is that he is male until he wishes to have gender reassignment surgery as an adult.
Fitness standards are a crock anyway - fitness goals should be based on a realistic appraisal of individual capabilities.
Sex-separated health class might be a bit awkward, it's true.
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koenkai
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« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2012, 01:31:39 AM »

Do you know any transsexuals?  I know quite a few, none of them are single.  Not one, trans-female, or trans-male.  Per capita, I know far more cisgendered individuals.  Your argument there holds no weight.

And any trans person would find you calling it "gender identity disorder" condescending and degrading, it's "gender dysphoria".

I doubt any of them have children either. Point still stands.

Oh well. I bet there are people who want me to use the term handicapable too, but I'm not convinced.
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Spanish Moss
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« Reply #58 on: September 29, 2012, 01:33:07 AM »

Physically and biologically, this is a boy. In gym class or when it's necessary to have fitness standards or if the genders are split up for something in health class, he should be on the "boy" side. I have nothing against him, but the reality is that he is male until he wishes to have gender reassignment surgery as an adult.

As a minor it makes virtually no difference, and those who start hormone treatment on the onset of puberty (when the sexes really begin to differentiate clearly) essentially develop as the opposite biological sex with the genitals being the only exception.  So I see no real basis in your argument.
that's a massive difference and things like estrogen have more wide reaching implications for your health than just permanent sterility. you know how many trans people have hair loss or incontinence or other horrifying side effects when they start treatment? i'm bi and i've been on anti depressants and other meds over the years. that has caused so many side effects for me i can't even imagine taking hormones at 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 years old while suffering from major body issues.

Well first, they don't take meds in the traditional sense - it's not like taking Paxil or Zoloft.  They take chemicals that naturally occur in human bodies - whether it be testosterone, or estrogen with a testosterone blocker.  It's not as if there's side effects that don't come naturally.

Yes, trans-men have hair loss - just as men naturally have hair loss.  Yes, trans-women become sterile - because of the lack of testosterone, these individuals are fully aware these things occur.  I've never heard of a single case of trans individuals having "side effects" in the traditional sense of what you consider medication, and if that's what makes them happy, I don't see what the problem is.  And the idea of "curing" them doesn't make them happy, it makes them angry and vindictive because to insinuate such a thing is degrading - they aren't ashamed of who they are, they just want to be who they are.

I love (/sarcasm) how cisgendered people love to put their two cents in as if they have the right to try and get involved with or influence the life of a trans individual without their consent, minor or adult.  It's absurd.
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Spanish Moss
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« Reply #59 on: September 29, 2012, 01:37:41 AM »

Do you know any transsexuals?  I know quite a few, none of them are single.  Not one, trans-female, or trans-male.  Per capita, I know far more cisgendered individuals.  Your argument there holds no weight.

And any trans person would find you calling it "gender identity disorder" condescending and degrading, it's "gender dysphoria".

I doubt any of them have children either. Point still stands.

Oh well. I bet there are people who want me to use the term handicapable too, but I'm not convinced.

Adopted, yes.  And there are numerous trans-women who are attracted to women, who get sperm frozen prior to going on estrogen, who have biological children after going on hormone treatment.  So... doubt all you like, it happens.  And considering the Earth's carrying capacity goes down by a decent number each day while the population goes up, it'd be far better for the Earth and the human race if people stopped producing new people.  One of the primary reasons I never intend to produce any biological children of my own.

But staying on topic - they aren't "handicapped" so "handicapable" is an atrocious and bigoted analogy.  The only thing that's handicapped, as far as trans individuals go, is society - seeing as it is so blatantly and cruelly transphobic, forcing these people to deal with bigoted nonsense.  It's on society to grow up.
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Ghost_white
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« Reply #60 on: September 29, 2012, 01:49:29 AM »
« Edited: September 29, 2012, 01:51:43 AM by Ghost_white »

So the entire basis is based on the ability of trans-women to have children?  What about women born infertile, are they, then, less of women?

In a way. It's certainly an extremely unfortunate outcome that severely damages their potential future relationships. Much like gender identity disorder.

Do you know any transsexuals?  I know quite a few, none of them are single.  Not one, trans-female, or trans-male.  Per capita, I know far more cisgendered individuals.  Your argument there holds no weight.

And any trans person would find you calling it "gender identity disorder" condescending and degrading, it's "gender dysphoria".
dysphoria /dys·pho·ria/ (-forŽe-ah) [Gr.] disquiet; restlessness; malaise.dysphoretŽicdysphorŽic

gender dysphoria  unhappiness with one's biological sex or its usual gender role, with the desire for the body and role of the opposite sex.


what it boils down to is, are you okay with someone removing their genitals or permanently altering their body in potentially grotesque ways because they have issues with what their bodies naturally look like? what if it was something else body related? what about people with racial self hate issues or the other kin crowd or something like that? where do you draw the line? is it even appropriate to treat it 100% like a choice to get surgery given that a lot of people have the overwhelming urge to (obviously not all do want hormones or surgery but still)? cross dressing is one thing and blockers might be a pragmatic necessity given how frequently these kids suicide but once you get into irreversible body modification, yes i am uncomfortable.
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Spanish Moss
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« Reply #61 on: September 29, 2012, 01:59:43 AM »

what it boils down to is, are you okay with someone removing their genitals or permanently altering their body in potentially grotesque ways because they have issues with what their bodies naturally look like?


Yes, and even if I wasn't, it isn't my place to be "okay" or "not okay" with it.  So who do you think you are that you're in some high and mighty position to take a stand against who these people are and what they want?

Not to mention, people born hermaphroditic get surgery on their genitals, I don't see any complaints on that.


what if it was something else body related? what about people with racial self hate issues or the other kin crowd or something like that?

Again, it's not my, or your, place to go taking a stance on that.  But if I had to, I'd first love to hear of an example of "racial dysphoria" that isn't a result of simply being treated like crap for being a minority and feeling like being another race because it's easier.  But don't bother looking it up if there is - because I don't care.  Like I said, it's not my place to go taking a stand on it.



where do you draw the line? is it even appropriate to treat it 100% like a choice to get surgery given that a lot of people have the overwhelming urge to (obviously not all do want hormones or surgery but still)?

You DON'T draw a line - IT'S NOT YOUR BUSINESS!!!



cross dressing is one thing and blockers might be a pragmatic necessity given how frequently these kids suicide

Because of:

A) People like you.
B) People even more cruel who constantly taunt, or even beat them - or parents who disown them.  And you're feeding into that culture, even if you don't do those things, so congradulations.  The fact that the mods aren't stepping in on all the nonsense on this thread only says to me that they aren't doing their job.  This is absurd.

 

but once you get into irreversible body modification, yes i am uncomfortable.

And not a single trans individual gives a damn if you're uncomfortable.
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Ghost_white
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« Reply #62 on: September 29, 2012, 02:07:34 AM »
« Edited: September 29, 2012, 02:19:35 AM by Ghost_white »

Physically and biologically, this is a boy. In gym class or when it's necessary to have fitness standards or if the genders are split up for something in health class, he should be on the "boy" side. I have nothing against him, but the reality is that he is male until he wishes to have gender reassignment surgery as an adult.

As a minor it makes virtually no difference, and those who start hormone treatment on the onset of puberty (when the sexes really begin to differentiate clearly) essentially develop as the opposite biological sex with the genitals being the only exception.  So I see no real basis in your argument.
that's a massive difference and things like estrogen have more wide reaching implications for your health than just permanent sterility. you know how many trans people have hair loss or incontinence or other horrifying side effects when they start treatment? i'm bi and i've been on anti depressants and other meds over the years. that has caused so many side effects for me i can't even imagine taking hormones at 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 years old while suffering from major body issues.

Well first, they don't take meds in the traditional sense - it's not like taking Paxil or Zoloft.  They take chemicals that naturally occur in human bodies - whether it be testosterone, or estrogen with a testosterone blocker.  It's not as if there's side effects that don't come naturally.

my point was more that just tinkering around with something like serotonin can have major effects. what happens when you add  anti androgens or estrogens or who knows what else to a still developing male body suddenly? isn't puberty and ms/hs crazy enough without going through all these crazy cocktails of treatments?

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cardiovascular problems or other more major issues can pop up besides what i mentioned, although those can make things worse. you know how many trans people still are miserable even after they do all that? it's not a guarantee, it is treated as a last resort even by supportive professionals now and after a long waiting period. tinkering around with hormones is not something to be undertaken lightly and i don't think it's something to be undertaken by people that can't even legally drive or have sex yet.

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once you put something out there people are going to comment on it. i am not saying that it should be entirely stamped out, i am saying that the ethical issues of radical plastic surgery on someone with major body issues are way more gray than you are implying. i am obviously not a liberal in any case. i tend to think that western/capitalist ideas of 'personal autonomy' or 'individual choice' is highly exaggerated. we are very much ruled by our biology, by our conditioning and many other factors not entirely in our control.

as it is i've said basically all i can, this is obviously not going anywhere but i feel like it just needs to be said.
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Mister Twister
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« Reply #63 on: September 29, 2012, 05:38:09 AM »

If the boy is faking though... he is one smooth operator
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Spanish Moss
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« Reply #64 on: October 17, 2012, 05:25:57 AM »

The fact that the mods have done nothing relevant in terms of reacting to the clear transphobia here is not only apalling, I've not posted here in a while because of it, and may leave altogether (which isn't some kind of threat, because those of you who should be suspended if not banned would likely love to see me go).  But it shows that despite all the supposed moderation around here, the moderators aren't doing their job.  This is absolutely absurd.
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afleitch
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« Reply #65 on: October 17, 2012, 06:04:40 AM »

The fact that the mods have done nothing relevant in terms of reacting to the clear transphobia here is not only apalling, I've not posted here in a while because of it, and may leave altogether (which isn't some kind of threat, because those of you who should be suspended if not banned would likely love to see me go).  But it shows that despite all the supposed moderation around here, the moderators aren't doing their job.  This is absolutely absurd.

For the record I raised it with my fellow mods. No infractions were given (The 'disgusting' comment was not infracted due to 'freedom of speech') which I said wasn't really a satisfactory response. To my knowledge nothing has been done.
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Spanish Moss
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« Reply #66 on: October 17, 2012, 06:09:55 AM »

The fact that the mods have done nothing relevant in terms of reacting to the clear transphobia here is not only apalling, I've not posted here in a while because of it, and may leave altogether (which isn't some kind of threat, because those of you who should be suspended if not banned would likely love to see me go).  But it shows that despite all the supposed moderation around here, the moderators aren't doing their job.  This is absolutely absurd.

For the record I raised it with my fellow mods. No infractions were given (The 'disgusting' comment was not infracted due to 'freedom of speech') which I said wasn't really a satisfactory response. To my knowledge nothing has been done.

Well, then for the record I'd totally bake you brownies if I personally knew you (:-P) and give you a bunch of prop points as my now official favorite mod.

Saying "N**gers are fleet-footed criminals" is freedom of speech too, somehow I don't think that'd fly here (nor should it).
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Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook
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« Reply #67 on: October 17, 2012, 01:54:13 PM »

Just wondering, why wasn't my comment infracted? (I called a transgender "it")
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Mercenary
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« Reply #68 on: October 17, 2012, 06:20:45 PM »

Unless the school has a dress code, I suppose they can dress however they wish. But they are not biologically female and therefore should not use the female's restroom. If they are uncomfortable using the men's  room, perhaps there is a single occupancy bathroom. If not, it is probably a good idea to have such restrooms. Not simply due to this issue, but some people are uncomfortable in restrooms in general and single occupancy can help with that.
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H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
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« Reply #69 on: October 17, 2012, 06:48:59 PM »

How about Moss and Mint calm the f[inks] down?

Moss, you are right, but you've got to avoid typing in all caps. Use bolding, italics, or underlining to civilly emphasize a point. Also, "Negroes aren't productive members of society" is protected free speech. I don't give a damn what you think.

Mint, you're the exact opposite: wrong, but less of an angry dick.
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« Reply #70 on: October 17, 2012, 06:51:20 PM »

How is a third grader deciding or finding out where and what they are sexually? I mean, there were girls that got "married" in 5th grade, had some stupid play ceremony in class or something like that, and they're not lesbians. So how is a third grader deciding that they want to identify as a woman the rest of their life? And how creepy and weird does this get when someone identifying as a different gender has to decide which locker room to change in?
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Spanish Moss
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« Reply #71 on: October 18, 2012, 02:10:36 AM »

I'd like to hear the positions from all the mods themselves, considering there's no transarency over the fact that mods are blatantly selectively enforcing established rules, which makes them unfit for the position.
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J. J.
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« Reply #72 on: October 19, 2012, 08:00:49 PM »

In my third grade class, we thought all girls were "icky" and had "kooties."  None of us do today, so far as I know.

I think this is a bit too young to assign a gender role, unless there is biological imperative.
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Pingvin
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« Reply #73 on: October 19, 2012, 10:43:54 PM »

I'd like to hear the positions from all the mods themselves, considering there's no transarency over the fact that mods are blatantly selectively enforcing established rules, which makes them unfit for the position.

Dear Spanish Moss,
Atlas Forum Mods are

Thanks for your understanding.
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« Reply #74 on: October 19, 2012, 10:58:53 PM »

I'd like to hear the positions from all the mods themselves, considering there's no transarency over the fact that mods are blatantly selectively enforcing established rules, which makes them unfit for the position.

Sigh

I did modify the one comment labeling the child as "it" to "she". There were moderators who gave reasonable arguments to both sides as to whether this was an understandable lapse in uncharted social etiquette, so I didn't assign infraction points. I didn't see afleitch's follow up post until now and, yeah, on second thought pingvin's "disgusting" comment fell outside even a liberal interpretation of TOS and shall be deleted (with some points as a parting gift to boot) momentarily. As far as Konekai's expression of opinion that cross-dressing is a problem, that's his right to believe it and express same.

So in all, the overt forces of bigotry and political correctness are checked again.
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