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| | |-+  "Veneto will become independent before Scotland and Catalonia."
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Author Topic: "Veneto will become independent before Scotland and Catalonia."  (Read 1382 times)
Keystone Phil
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« on: October 06, 2012, 02:19:11 pm »
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That quote and other silliness brought to you by -http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9589732/Mass-rally-in-Venice-to-call-for-independence-from-Italy.html

The good news is that even Veneto's Lega Nord Governor has stated that there is "no constitutional basis" for independence despite a supposed 70-80% level of support amongst the public (the latter point not being good, of course).
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Chuck Hagel 08
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« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2012, 08:03:53 pm »
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Hopefully all three will obtain control over their own destiny.
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« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2012, 11:07:22 am »
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Hopefully all three will obtain control over their own destiny.
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« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2012, 11:12:46 am »
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I'm with Phil here.
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Sibboleth
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« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2012, 12:44:15 pm »
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With support like that, who knows? It's not inherently sillier than an independent Scotland or an independent Catalonia anyway - or an independent Luxembourg, come to think of it.
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« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2012, 12:47:31 pm »
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With support like that, who knows? It's not inherently sillier than an independent Scotland or an independent Catalonia anyway - or an independent Luxembourg, come to think of it.
If the notion actually had support - rather than currency as a talking point - this wide, wouldn't you think pro-Indepence Parties would be dominating regional politics?
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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2012, 12:49:07 pm »
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With support like that, who knows? It's not inherently sillier than an independent Scotland or an independent Catalonia anyway - or an independent Luxembourg, come to think of it.
If the notion actually had support - rather than currency as a talking point - this wide, wouldn't you think pro-Indepence Parties would be dominating regional politics?

Yes, but then I was just trolling.
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« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2012, 02:33:44 pm »
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Nothing is sillier than an independent Scotland. Because at least Catalonia and Padania have functional economies.
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« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2012, 02:54:21 pm »
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I would be interested in seeing the actual poll about this, if it even exists.
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Senator bore
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« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2012, 03:01:18 pm »
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Nothing is sillier than an independent Scotland. Because at least Catalonia and Padania have functional economies.

Go on...
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Robb the Survivor
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« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2012, 04:05:43 pm »
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With support like that, who knows? It's not inherently sillier than an independent Scotland or an independent Catalonia anyway - or an independent Luxembourg, come to think of it.

Of course Italy was split into multiple nations until 150 years ago, but I would say the difference is that Catalonia and Scotland have particular identities clearly distinct from the whole bloc of their countries. Veneto might have strong peculiarities, but no more than, say, Apulia, Emilia or Campania. Italy is a construct of multiple regional identities, which is very different from relatively homogeneous blocs like UK and Spain where one or two specific regions clearly stand out.
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« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2012, 04:36:32 pm »
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With support like that, who knows? It's not inherently sillier than an independent Scotland or an independent Catalonia anyway - or an independent Luxembourg, come to think of it.

Of course Italy was split into multiple nations until 150 years ago, but I would say the difference is that Catalonia and Scotland have particular identities clearly distinct from the whole bloc of their countries. Veneto might have strong peculiarities, but no more than, say, Apulia, Emilia or Campania. Italy is a construct of multiple regional identities, which is very different from relatively homogeneous blocs like UK and Spain where one or two specific regions clearly stand out.

I think trying to make comparisons like this is kind of futile. Is the difference between Veneto and Campania greater or lesser than the difference between Wallonia and Brittany? How about the difference between Quebec and Alberta? Or Mississippi and Vermont? Some of the differences between certain independent states are definitely much smaller than the differences between provinces/regions within certain states.

Different countries have different histories, and different levels of diversity. Some nations are highly ethnically and culturally homogeneous nation-states (Japan would be a good example). Others are federations of two or more arguably separate cultures (e.x. Belgium). Many fall in between, with cultures that are different but not necessarily separate (I think Italy falls into this category). Quite a few don't even really correlate with any culture (many of the post-colonial nations in Africa, for example).

My overall point here is that I don't think you can judge whether or not a region should separate just by trying to measure the cultural difference between them and the rest of their country (which is pretty much impossible to do objectively, anyway). Sometimes culturally different areas are best served by remaining party of one country, and other times they are best served by separating. Sometimes the answer is some sort of devolution/regional autonomy. But all of that takes into a lot more than just how culturally different one area is from another area, including the history of the areas, the economics of separation vs unity, the configuration of the government, the rights given to residents of the regions that want to separate, etc.

EDIT: I'm not disagreeing with you, btw, I think this actually supports the point you were making.
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« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2012, 10:07:32 pm »
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With support like that, who knows? It's not inherently sillier than an independent Scotland or an independent Catalonia anyway - or an independent Luxembourg, come to think of it.

Of course Italy was split into multiple nations until 150 years ago, but I would say the difference is that Catalonia and Scotland have particular identities clearly distinct from the whole bloc of their countries. Veneto might have strong peculiarities, but no more than, say, Apulia, Emilia or Campania. Italy is a construct of multiple regional identities, which is very different from relatively homogeneous blocs like UK and Spain where one or two specific regions clearly stand out.

The Rest of Spain (say, without Catalonia and the Basque Country) is not a homogeneous bloc but a "construct of multiple regional identities". There are a lot of geographical and historical circumstances that makes Spain more diverse than England. Anyways Veneto is not Scotland nor Catalonia.
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Sibboleth
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« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2012, 07:10:09 am »
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I'm deeply amused at the idea that England is not diverse.
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afleitch
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« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2012, 07:26:53 am »

Nothing is sillier than an independent Scotland. Because at least Catalonia and Padania have functional economies.

Ha!

Scotland's GDP under a conservative estimate is only slightly lower than Catalonia which given Catalonia's population is not bad going. It is higher than Ireland's and on par with Finland (a nation with a similar population)
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Velasco
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« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2012, 08:56:54 am »
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I'm deeply amused at the idea that England is not diverse.

I didn't mean that.
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Roma Caput Mundi
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« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2012, 11:05:59 am »
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How the hell can you compare Veneto with Catalonia and Scotland?!?!?!?

And btw,the Movimento di Indipendenza Veneto is completely unknown here in Italy.
Veneto's independence is not a major discussion point, and not even a minor discussion point.
It simply isn't,and rightly so,since Veneto is Italy.
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2012, 08:47:57 pm »
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We heard all we really needed to hear when even Zaia said this was silly. I have heard of a Veneto independence movement before but figured it wasn't a big issue. If those polls are real though...
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« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2012, 11:49:09 pm »
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I'm deeply amused at the idea that England is not diverse.

Come on, you know that's not what I meant.
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« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2012, 03:07:54 pm »
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How the hell can you compare Veneto with Catalonia and Scotland?!?!?!?

And btw,the Movimento di Indipendenza Veneto is completely unknown here in Italy.
Veneto's independence is not a major discussion point, and not even a minor discussion point.
It simply isn't,and rightly so,since Veneto is Italy.
Venice is not Italy. Venice is Venice. If Venice wants to be Venice under Italy, as they are now, then they can do that. If Venice wants to be Venice under Venice, and not under Italy, they should be allowed to do so. Florida is part of the USA, but it is still Florida, and simply because of that, it should have the right to secede if it wants too.
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« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2012, 10:47:10 pm »
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How the hell can you compare Veneto with Catalonia and Scotland?!?!?!?

And btw,the Movimento di Indipendenza Veneto is completely unknown here in Italy.
Veneto's independence is not a major discussion point, and not even a minor discussion point.
It simply isn't,and rightly so,since Veneto is Italy.
Venice is not Italy. Venice is Venice. If Venice wants to be Venice under Italy, as they are now, then they can do that. If Venice wants to be Venice under Venice, and not under Italy, they should be allowed to do so. Florida is part of the USA, but it is still Florida, and simply because of that, it should have the right to secede if it wants too.

Florida has entered into a permanent contract that cannot be annulled.  You tried leaving once and you see how that worked out.

In general I am only willing to support independence movements that result in the populace of said territory being more prosperous and/or more free than before.  Simple nationalism, especially based on ethnicity or culture, is not a good reason to upset political stability.
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Chuck Hagel 08
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« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2012, 04:35:23 pm »
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Florida has entered into a permanent contract that cannot be annulled.

You mean a slave contract? In any case, none of the individuals constituting the entity of Florida that entered into said contract are currently living, and none of the individuals constituting the entity of Florida that are currently living entered into said contract.

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You tried leaving once and you see how that worked out.

Ah, the universally recognized legal principle of "might makes right."

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In general I am only willing to support independence movements that result in the populace of said territory being more prosperous and/or more free than before.  Simple nationalism, especially based on ethnicity or culture, is not a good reason to upset political stability.

And how can you know a priori whether an independence movement will result in the populace of said territory being more prosperous and/or more free? Wouldn't that require experimentation? And on another note, who or what gets to determine whether the populace of said territory is more prosperous and/or more free? Are those terms not inherently open to interpretation?
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« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2012, 06:47:55 am »
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How the hell can you compare Veneto with Catalonia and Scotland?!?!?!?

And btw,the Movimento di Indipendenza Veneto is completely unknown here in Italy.
Veneto's independence is not a major discussion point, and not even a minor discussion point.
It simply isn't,and rightly so,since Veneto is Italy.
Venice is not Italy. Venice is Venice. If Venice wants to be Venice under Italy, as they are now, then they can do that. If Venice wants to be Venice under Venice, and not under Italy, they should be allowed to do so. Florida is part of the USA, but it is still Florida, and simply because of that, it should have the right to secede if it wants too.
Sure, and then we can use that principle on and on until we get to "my house is my house,it's not part of my block. So now my house is independent".
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« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2012, 01:54:26 pm »
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Does anyone still speak venetian in Italy? There's a few people still speaking It in southern Brazil.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2012, 03:13:11 pm »
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With support like that, who knows? It's not inherently sillier than an independent Scotland or an independent Catalonia anyway - or an independent Luxembourg, come to think of it.
If the notion actually had support - rather than currency as a talking point - this wide, wouldn't you think pro-Indepence Parties would be dominating regional politics?

Yes, but then I was just trolling.

When did you stop?
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