Israeli General Election 2013
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MaxQue
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« Reply #200 on: December 31, 2012, 01:19:16 AM »

Horrible.
I'm near Balad, which is obviously not good.
I have Meretz (much better) and Hadash in my circle, Ta'al isn't far from it.

I always fails those tests. Either they say I'm a far-leftist, either they say I'm a centrist. The truth is someone in the middle.
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Peter the Lefty
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« Reply #201 on: December 31, 2012, 01:25:03 AM »

And I just read that Mitzna is now on board with Hatnua.  Facepalm.  Mitzna in a party lead by the woman that went around the world so vigorously defending Operation Cast Lead.  What has this world come to...
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danny
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« Reply #202 on: December 31, 2012, 05:50:40 AM »

And I just read that Mitzna is now on board with Hatnua.  Facepalm.  Mitzna in a party lead by the woman that went around the world so vigorously defending Operation Cast Lead.  What has this world come to...

He came from the party which the had the minister of defence as its leader during cast lead, so I'm not sure this reaction is warranted.
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Leftbehind
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« Reply #203 on: December 31, 2012, 08:27:15 AM »

As I thought, my circle encompasses the Left: closest to Meretz, but includes the Arab list, Hadash and Labour (that I wasn't sure of).
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #204 on: December 31, 2012, 08:38:06 AM »

About equidistant from Meretz, Ta'al and UAL, with Hadash marginally further away.
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Benj
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« Reply #205 on: December 31, 2012, 09:19:07 AM »
« Edited: December 31, 2012, 09:20:42 AM by Benj »

Balad and Hadash have identical or very close positions on nearly all issues. For what reasons Arab voters support Hadash? Two parties have the same ideology (socialism, secularism) but Balad is obviously preferable for Arabs due to its more clear pro-Palestinian stance.

I'm pretty sure more Hadash voters are Jews than Muslims, though they're the only party with significant cross-community support, thus being labeled as an Arab party. They are also the party for those Muslims who see cooperation with (pro-peace) Jews as essential--basically, less radical, for voters who don't harbor a real hatred of Israel as a concept.

Anyway, I landed about equidistant from Ta'al, Labor and Hatnu'a.
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danny
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« Reply #206 on: December 31, 2012, 09:43:19 AM »
« Edited: December 31, 2012, 12:30:39 PM by danny »

Balad and Hadash have identical or very close positions on nearly all issues. For what reasons Arab voters support Hadash? Two parties have the same ideology (socialism, secularism) but Balad is obviously preferable for Arabs due to its more clear pro-Palestinian stance.

I'm pretty sure more Hadash voters are Jews than Muslims, though they're the only party with significant cross-community support, thus being labeled as an Arab party. They are also the party for those Muslims who see cooperation with (pro-peace) Jews as essential--basically, less radical, for voters who don't harbor a real hatred of Israel as a concept.

Anyway, I landed about equidistant from Ta'al, Labor and Hatnu'a.

About 90% of Hadash voters are are Arab. I don't think the differences between voting Hadash and Balad are very ideological, but rather are more personality based.
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Peter the Lefty
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« Reply #207 on: December 31, 2012, 10:13:25 AM »

And I just read that Mitzna is now on board with Hatnua.  Facepalm.  Mitzna in a party lead by the woman that went around the world so vigorously defending Operation Cast Lead.  What has this world come to...

He came from the party which the had the minister of defence as its leader during cast lead, so I'm not sure this reaction is warranted.
Let me rephrase that.  Leaving his lifelong party to join a party lead by Livni.
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Leftbehind
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« Reply #208 on: December 31, 2012, 10:23:28 AM »

And I just read that Mitzna is now on board with Hatnua.  Facepalm.  Mitzna in a party lead by the woman that went around the world so vigorously defending Operation Cast Lead.  What has this world come to...

He came from the party which the had the minister of defence as its leader during cast lead, so I'm not sure this reaction is warranted.

But surely on that basis he would have left earlier anyway? Bizarre defection.
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Zuza
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« Reply #209 on: December 31, 2012, 10:35:28 AM »

they're the only party with significant cross-community support

I thought Meretz is another one.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #210 on: December 31, 2012, 11:30:10 AM »

There are no parties with any cross-community support whatsoever, unless you count a small handful of Jewish Stalinists sticking with Hadash, or you count the Druze vote's scattering across all the larger Jewish parties bar the far right plus all the Arab parties as cross-community support for all of these.
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danny
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« Reply #211 on: December 31, 2012, 11:38:03 AM »

And I just read that Mitzna is now on board with Hatnua.  Facepalm.  Mitzna in a party lead by the woman that went around the world so vigorously defending Operation Cast Lead.  What has this world come to...

He came from the party which the had the minister of defence as its leader during cast lead, so I'm not sure this reaction is warranted.

But surely on that basis he would have left earlier anyway? Bizarre defection.

You misunderstood, As far as I know Mitzna wasn't opposed to cast lead (if he did, he couldn't have made much of a fuss about it). It's just that Mitzna's reasoning for the defection is from the left, saying that Labour has stopped talking about peace.
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Hnv1
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« Reply #212 on: December 31, 2012, 12:21:00 PM »

Balad and Hadash have identical or very close positions on nearly all issues. For what reasons Arab voters support Hadash? Two parties have the same ideology (socialism, secularism) but Balad is obviously preferable for Arabs due to its more clear pro-Palestinian stance.

I'm pretty sure more Hadash voters are Jews than Muslims, though they're the only party with significant cross-community support, thus being labeled as an Arab party. They are also the party for those Muslims who see cooperation with (pro-peace) Jews as essential--basically, less radical, for voters who don't harbor a real hatred of Israel as a concept.

Anyway, I landed about equidistant from Ta'al, Labor and Hatnu'a.

About 90% of Hadash voters are Are Arab. I don't think the differences between voting Hadash and Balad are very ideological, but rather are more personality based.
you obviously haven't spoken to many Balad or Hadash voters. Hadash gets roughly 10K Jewish vote across the country (though in 2009 they nicked some votes from Meretz and got 13K Jewish votes cast to them). This time Meretz and Da'am will both dig into Hadash Jewish and Arab strength.

5# in Meretz's list is Isawi Farig from the triangle region and he is aiming to bring 60K arab votes to Meretz.

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From many years of living by Druze and getting to know them, the Druze vote is by far the least ideologically driven I've seen. They mainly vote for whoever reward them money-wise
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danny
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« Reply #213 on: December 31, 2012, 12:30:12 PM »


About 90% of Hadash voters are Are Arab. I don't think the differences between voting Hadash and Balad are very ideological, but rather are more personality based.
you obviously haven't spoken to many Balad or Hadash voters. Hadash gets roughly 10K Jewish vote across the country (though in 2009 they nicked some votes from Meretz and got 13K Jewish votes cast to them). This time Meretz and Da'am will both dig into Hadash Jewish and Arab strength.

5# in Meretz's list is Isawi Farig from the triangle region and he is aiming to bring 60K arab votes to Meretz.


I'm not sure in what way you are disagreeing with me here, Hadash got 112K votes in the last election, 10-13K would be about 10%.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #214 on: December 31, 2012, 12:58:48 PM »


About 90% of Hadash voters are Are Arab. I don't think the differences between voting Hadash and Balad are very ideological, but rather are more personality based.
you obviously haven't spoken to many Balad or Hadash voters. Hadash gets roughly 10K Jewish vote across the country (though in 2009 they nicked some votes from Meretz and got 13K Jewish votes cast to them). This time Meretz and Da'am will both dig into Hadash Jewish and Arab strength.

5# in Meretz's list is Isawi Farig from the triangle region and he is aiming to bring 60K arab votes to Meretz.


I'm not sure in what way you are disagreeing with me here
Maybe with the "not very ideological" bit?
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danny
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« Reply #215 on: December 31, 2012, 01:16:18 PM »
« Edited: December 31, 2012, 01:19:25 PM by danny »


About 90% of Hadash voters are Are Arab. I don't think the differences between voting Hadash and Balad are very ideological, but rather are more personality based.
you obviously haven't spoken to many Balad or Hadash voters. Hadash gets roughly 10K Jewish vote across the country (though in 2009 they nicked some votes from Meretz and got 13K Jewish votes cast to them). This time Meretz and Da'am will both dig into Hadash Jewish and Arab strength.

5# in Meretz's list is Isawi Farig from the triangle region and he is aiming to bring 60K arab votes to Meretz.


I'm not sure in what way you are disagreeing with me here
Maybe with the "not very ideological" bit?

He should expand on the differences between them then, I admit that the Arab parties are those that I know the least about.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #216 on: December 31, 2012, 01:20:27 PM »

I suppose the big difference is that Hadash is a Communist party, while Balad represents a certain sort of secular Arab Nationalism that is very different, even if the rhetoric might sometimes look similar.

Also, there's at least something of a confessional element isn't there; obviously they're a minority within a minority, but most Christians seem to vote Hadash.
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Kitteh
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« Reply #217 on: December 31, 2012, 01:51:08 PM »

I suppose the big difference is that Hadash is a Communist party, while Balad represents a certain sort of secular Arab Nationalism that is very different, even if the rhetoric might sometimes look similar.

Yeah, as far as I understand it Balad's ideology is of the Nasserist/Ba'athist sort of Arab Nationalism which is definitely different from strict Marxism like Hadash believes in.

It also seems to me, just looking at the results, that Hadash tends to do better in the largest Arab towns (like Umm al-Fahm), while Balad tends to do better in the North, which would make some sense since that area is near Syria. I'm not sure if that's even true but just my impression from a brief look at various maps.

As for the quiz, I got right next to Balad, just a little down on the vertical axis. Similar to Meretz, which is who I'd actually vote for if I could. Labor was just barely in my circle.
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Zuza
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« Reply #218 on: December 31, 2012, 01:52:56 PM »
« Edited: December 31, 2012, 01:55:12 PM by Zuza »

Another 2 questions:
1. What are main differences between Hatnuah, Yeash Atid and Kadima besides different party leaders? I understand only that Hatnuah is probably to the left of others on Palestinian issue.
2. Am Shalem is a split from right-wing and religious Shas. So why is it situated in centre on compass, on some issues even to the left of centrist parties? Is Am Shalem simply a moderate version of Shas?
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danny
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« Reply #219 on: December 31, 2012, 02:19:45 PM »

1. What are main differences between Hatnuah, Yeash Atid and Kadima besides different party leaders? I understand only that Hatnuah is probably to the left of others on Palestinian issue.

This is the biggest difference, but Hatnuah is definitely to the left of those, and is also positioning itself to the left of Labour (in the very Israeli sense of the word).


2. Am Shalem is a split from right-wing and religious Shas. So why is it situated in centre on compass, on some issues even to the left of centrist parties? Is Am Shalem simply a moderate version of Shas?

Amsalem doesn't talk about left/right issues in this campaign, although in the past he was no less right wing than a Shas MK is expected to be. The parties single issue is opposing Shas and what it stands for on religious issues, and calling Shas a corrupt party and stooges for the Lithuanians (Litvishers).
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danny
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« Reply #220 on: December 31, 2012, 02:32:21 PM »

A hypothetical poll from mako in the case that Israel returned to a separate vote for PM.

Knesset:
Likud Beitenu: 23
JH-NU: 17
Labour: 15
Yesh Atid: 14
The Movement: 12
Shas: 11
UTJ: 5
Meretz: 5
RAAM-TAAL: 5
Hadash: 4
Balad: 3
Otzma Leisrael: 3
Am Shalem: 3

PM:
Bibi: 37%
Livni: 18%
Bennet: 12%
Shelly: 12%
Lapid: 4%
Deri: 4%
Eldad: 4%
Mofaz: 3%
Galon: 1%
other: 5%
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Vosem
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« Reply #221 on: December 31, 2012, 02:40:17 PM »

A hypothetical poll from mako in the case that Israel returned to a separate vote for PM.

Knesset:
Likud Beitenu: 23
JH-NU: 17
Labour: 15
Yesh Atid: 14
The Movement: 12
Shas: 11
UTJ: 5
Meretz: 5
RAAM-TAAL: 5
Hadash: 4
Balad: 3
Otzma Leisrael: 3
Am Shalem: 3

PM:
Bibi: 37%
Livni: 18%
Bennet: 12%
Shelly: 12%
Lapid: 4%
Deri: 4%
Eldad: 4%
Mofaz: 3%
Galon: 1%
other: 5%

Are the first numbers a real poll for the Knesset? Because if it is, that is one hell of a drop for LB -- 23 seats is less than Likud got last time on its own, and Bennett is now in second -- if that is a legit poll and that trend continues another week, Bennett could totally emerge leader of the biggest right-wing party.
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Hnv1
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« Reply #222 on: December 31, 2012, 02:45:57 PM »


About 90% of Hadash voters are Are Arab. I don't think the differences between voting Hadash and Balad are very ideological, but rather are more personality based.
you obviously haven't spoken to many Balad or Hadash voters. Hadash gets roughly 10K Jewish vote across the country (though in 2009 they nicked some votes from Meretz and got 13K Jewish votes cast to them). This time Meretz and Da'am will both dig into Hadash Jewish and Arab strength.

5# in Meretz's list is Isawi Farig from the triangle region and he is aiming to bring 60K arab votes to Meretz.


I'm not sure in what way you are disagreeing with me here
Maybe with the "not very ideological" bit?

He should expand on the differences between them then, I admit that the Arab parties are those that I know the least about.
So in general Hadash voters are either urban Arabs (from the large Israeli cities) or from the large Arab towns, mostly educated to a greater degree than in the other Arab parties and way more reformist in their general outlook on Arab society. Though elements of Hadash are not that rhetorically different from Balad (especially in the TARBUT division of Hadash), the presence of the ICP remains the core ideological element that opposes Balad (Leftist joint Hebrew-Arabic cooperation to the brute pan-Arabism of Balad).

And in contrast to general belief, Hadash and the ICP in it drifted from their Leninist stance to more mainstream socialist ideas. The revolutionary zeal kind of died with the USSR. The main attraction for a lot of leftist Hebrews I talked with is MK Dov Hanin, who is highly regarded for his work in the left, unlike their leader Mohamad Barka who gets nothing but disdain for his nationalist comments at time and his support for Assad (which will cost him left votes to Da'am).

Arab inner politics are fascinating as they remind me of a Sholem Aleichem Eastern European Jewish shtetl stories; with their petty feuds and frequent reconciliations. The intense tendency for factionalism is a joint illness of both Jews and Arabs here.

I recommend read Uda Basharat - Chutzot Zatunia, it's a rather comical novel portraying an election campaign in a small Arab town to familiarize you with Arab politics
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Hnv1
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« Reply #223 on: December 31, 2012, 02:47:38 PM »

A hypothetical poll from mako in the case that Israel returned to a separate vote for PM.

Knesset:
Likud Beitenu: 23
JH-NU: 17
Labour: 15
Yesh Atid: 14
The Movement: 12
Shas: 11
UTJ: 5
Meretz: 5
RAAM-TAAL: 5
Hadash: 4
Balad: 3
Otzma Leisrael: 3
Am Shalem: 3

PM:
Bibi: 37%
Livni: 18%
Bennet: 12%
Shelly: 12%
Lapid: 4%
Deri: 4%
Eldad: 4%
Mofaz: 3%
Galon: 1%
other: 5%

Are the first numbers a real poll for the Knesset? Because if it is, that is one hell of a drop for LB -- 23 seats is less than Likud got last time on its own, and Bennett is now in second -- if that is a legit poll and that trend continues another week, Bennett could totally emerge leader of the biggest right-wing party.
It's a hypothetical poll in which Israel returned to directly electing its PM
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Peter the Lefty
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« Reply #224 on: December 31, 2012, 03:01:02 PM »

And I just read that Mitzna is now on board with Hatnua.  Facepalm.  Mitzna in a party lead by the woman that went around the world so vigorously defending Operation Cast Lead.  What has this world come to...

He came from the party which the had the minister of defence as its leader during cast lead, so I'm not sure this reaction is warranted.

But surely on that basis he would have left earlier anyway? Bizarre defection.

You misunderstood, As far as I know Mitzna wasn't opposed to cast lead (if he did, he couldn't have made much of a fuss about it). It's just that Mitzna's reasoning for the defection is from the left, saying that Labour has stopped talking about peace.
Which also makes it odd that he's joining a party which is pretty much all based around the personality cult of a vigorous defender of Cast Lead and the Gaza blockade.  Not to mention a former Likudnik for Pete's sake.
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