In your mind, which concept is more important?
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  In your mind, which concept is more important?
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Poll
Question: Assuming the two ever directly conflict, which of the two is more important to you/takes precedent?
#1
Capitalism (D)
 
#2
Democracy (D)
 
#3
Capitalism (R)
 
#4
Democracy (R)
 
#5
Capitalism (L)
 
#6
Democracy (L)
 
#7
Capitalism (I/O)
 
#8
Democracy (I/O)
 
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Total Voters: 58

Author Topic: In your mind, which concept is more important?  (Read 1930 times)
Marokai Backbeat
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« on: October 10, 2012, 06:40:16 PM »

Topic question.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2012, 07:22:16 PM »

I think I know who this question is directed to. Wink
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koenkai
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« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2012, 07:27:10 PM »

Really irrelevant. There is no such thing as a non-capitalistic democracy. Even countries like Sweden and Denmark are fundamentally capitalistic, although with much deeper social nets than most Anglophone countries.
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fezzyfestoon
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« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2012, 07:29:56 PM »

I would say democracy, as a way to protect capitalism. I see capitalism as being far more fragile, though democracy isn't faring much better at this point. It's tough to say because of the perversion of each concept...
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2012, 07:30:56 PM »

Really irrelevant. There is no such thing as a non-capitalistic democracy. Even countries like Sweden and Denmark are fundamentally capitalistic, although with much deeper social nets than most Anglophone countries.

Oh well. I would've been disappointed if I had actually expected you to answer the question outright. I think everyone here knows your real answer.
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koenkai
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« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2012, 07:36:47 PM »

Really irrelevant. There is no such thing as a non-capitalistic democracy. Even countries like Sweden and Denmark are fundamentally capitalistic, although with much deeper social nets than most Anglophone countries.

Oh well. I would've been disappointed if I had actually expected you to answer the question outright. I think everyone here knows your real answer.

Too bad my understanding of the world, whether correct or not, is deeper than reducing issues to easily digestible catchwords in order to attack others. Which is your general modus operandi, though when it fails, you generally switch to a "bah, you people can't understand" to try to disqualify disagreement. Give it a rest. I am at most generous, thoroughly unimpressed with every argument I have ever seen you make.
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Goldwater
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« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2012, 09:33:42 PM »

Democracy, although both are extremely important.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2012, 11:42:26 PM »
« Edited: October 10, 2012, 11:45:41 PM by ስምፋን፫፬ »

Capitalism, hands-down.

The character of this nation, and of the world in the past two centuries, has been far more impacted-and for the better-by the exchange of ideas, money, trade, and companies, than by the amount of people who got to vote in a given set of nations. koenkai touches upon that point- whilst there are many non-democratic capitalist states, there is no democratic non-capitalist state. With North Korea and Cuba seemingly embracing a degree of liberal economic reform, the latter more notably so than the former, there is perhaps no nation in the world (with the possible exception of Laos, I don't know what they're doing), that does not practice capitalism, and the same cannot be said for democracy- while almost all nations pay lip service to it.
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Cryptic
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« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2012, 05:19:57 AM »

Democracy (D)
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dead0man
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« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2012, 06:16:48 AM »

Probably Democracy, but as others have said, it's a silly question.  What's more important....
Unions or Free Speech
abortion or female suffrage
freedom to assemble or fair trials

There are answers to those questions, but it doesn't mean the other half of each one isn't also very very important.
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© tweed
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« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2012, 06:59:17 AM »

you're assuming the voter is in favor of both or either?
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© tweed
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« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2012, 07:05:33 AM »

I voted for democracy, but neither that nor capitalism are in themselves my highest priority. Like dead0man, I place greater importance on freedom of speech, the right to assemble, and the right to a fair trial. I would probably add to his list a level of economic prosperity sufficient to guarantee everyone access to food, housing, education, and healthcare.

I'd think that eating is more important than speaking or assembling, but that's just me.
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TNF
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« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2012, 10:24:38 AM »

Democracy, hands-down. Capitalism is only a means, not an ends.
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opebo
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« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2012, 11:57:53 AM »

Capitalism is a huge negative, Democracy is more or less neutral, so the latter.
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Lief 🗽
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« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2012, 12:01:15 PM »

I agree with Averroës Nix's post, and especially Tweed's corollary to it.

Government ensuring democracy is more important than government ensuring capitalism, but there are many things more important than both.
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They put it to a vote and they just kept lying
20RP12
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« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2012, 12:30:24 PM »

Democracy (R) because when there is Democracy, there is almost always Capitalism, but when there is Capitalism, there may not be Democracy.

See: Present day China
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SPC
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« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2012, 12:31:24 PM »

Capitalism is just a more efficient form of democracy.
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Vazdul (Formerly Chairman of the Communist Party of Ontario)
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« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2012, 12:32:09 PM »

Democracy empowers all people. Capitalism empowers the wealthy.
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20RP12
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« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2012, 12:34:02 PM »


This, however, is not true.
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« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2012, 12:35:07 PM »

Capitalism is just a more efficient form of democracy.
no. democracy is inherently socialistic because it implies that the state can tax, regulate and redistribute according to the will of the majority. it might be constrained by constitutions or charters but that's the ultimate underlying tendency.
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Vazdul (Formerly Chairman of the Communist Party of Ontario)
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« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2012, 12:35:55 PM »


Well, perhaps I oversimplified the concept, but capitalism certainly doesn't empower the less fortunate among us.
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Chuck Hagel 08
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« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2012, 12:38:25 PM »

Capitalism is just a more efficient form of democracy.
no. democracy is inherently socialistic because it implies that the state can tax, regulate and redistribute according to the will of the majority. it might be constrained by constitutions or charters but that's the ultimate underlying tendency.

Our positions are not mutually exclusive. In saying that capitalism is more efficient than democracy, I meant that it is more efficient in allowing people to receive what they "vote" for, since they can vote with their wallet or their feet and immediately get their desired outcome, unlike in democracy in which they must wait 4 years and hope that a plurality of complete strangers agrees with them before they can potentially receive a watered-down version of their desired product. I of course agree with you that political democracy is a collectivist scheme.
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20RP12
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« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2012, 12:50:54 PM »
« Edited: October 12, 2012, 05:14:42 AM by 20RP12 »


Well, perhaps I oversimplified the concept, but capitalism certainly doesn't empower the less fortunate among us.

But it can. The premise of Capitalism is for all to work and succeed without the assistance of Government. Socialism inherently implies that one need not strive for success when Government can just hand them everything. Capitalism teaches a philosophy that humans should be responsible for their own economic success and should only rely on the Government when they cannot rely on themselves. In today's society, the welfare state has expanded so much that people can now receive welfare based on how many children they have, if they're married or not and plenty of other things that can just funnel more money into the pockets of people who do not seek work, at the expense of taxpayers.

Why is it legal in some states for people to use food stamps to purchase cigarettes and alcohol? Why has the philosophy of 'people should not be required to look for work whilst receiving welfare' become a legitimate and basically widely accepted political position? Because humans have now come to the conclusion that working is too hard and American exceptionalism is too difficult to achieve, when it's really not. Sure, it requires a lot of hard work and blood and sweat and tears, but it does not mean that it is unreachable.

Every multi-million dollar corporation started out as a small business at some point. The reason those small businesses where able to expand and become corporation was because there were always people looking for jobs, looking for money, looking for the pride that comes with having both of those things. There was no such thing as over-regulation and labour strikes where employees could halt two weeks' worth of product because they want more money. Are the leaders of most corporations greedy with their money to a certain extent? Absolutely. We'll disagree to what extent they're greedy, but that's not the point.

The point is that nowadays, the lifestyle choice of some Americans has become either stay at home, don't work at all and expect the Government to pay for your house, your TV, your car and everything else you own or join a union and expect the leaders of said union to negotiate more money so you can buy your house that you can't afford, your TV that you can't afford and your car that you can't afford.

It boggles my mind that someone making $50,000 a year would attempt to buy a $200,000 house and then be surprised when they're foreclosed, yet no one knows why the housing market crashed? It all comes back to the root of all evil (which I say that playfully): money. People will always want money so they can buy things. Socialism teaches that if someone else has too much money and I don't have enough money, I can just take their money so I have more money. So, in a nutshell, Socialism is a contradiction of itself in a way that it's supposed to be the least greedy of all economic philosophies, yet in practice it is the most greedy of all economic philosophies.

The big point that I'm trying to make here is that Capitalism may not be perfect, but it offers everyone the opportunity to succeed and enjoy the benefits of success, whereas Socialism teaches laziness and bastardizes individual success and exceptionalism.
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Fuzzybigfoot
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« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2012, 10:55:41 PM »


Well, perhaps I oversimplified the concept, but capitalism certainly doesn't empower the less fortunate among us.

But it can. The premise of Capitalism is for all to work and succeed without the assistance of Government. Socialism inherently implies that one need not strive for success when Government can just hand them everything. Capitalism teaches a philosophy that humans should be responsible for their own economic success and should only rely on the Government when they cannot rely on themselves. In today's society, the welfare state has expanded so much that people can now receive welfare based on how many children they have, if they're married or not and plenty of other things that can just funnel more money into the pockets of people who do not seek work, at the expense of taxpayers. Why is it legal in some states for people to use food stamps to purchase cigarettes and alcohol? Why has the philosophy of 'people should not be required to look for work whilst receiving welfare' become a legitimate and basically widely accepted political position? Because humans have now come to the conclusion that working is too hard and American exceptionalism is too difficult to achieve, when it's really not. Sure, it requires a lot of hard work and blood and sweat and tears, but it does not mean that it is unreachable. Every multi-million dollar corporation started out as a small business at some point. The reason those small businesses where able to expand and become corporation was because there were always people looking for jobs, looking for money, looking for the pride that comes with having both of those things. There was no such thing as over-regulation and labour strikes where employees could halt two weeks' worth of product because they want more money. Are the leaders of most corporations greedy with their money to a certain extent? Absolutely. We'll disagree to what extent they're greedy, but that's not the point. The point is that nowadays, the lifestyle choice of some Americans has become either stay at home, don't work at all and expect the Government to pay for your house, your TV, your car and everything else you own or join a union and expect the leaders of said union to negotiate more money so you can buy your house that you can't afford, your TV that you can't afford and your car that you can't afford. It boggles my mind that someone making $50,000 a year would attempt to buy a $200,000 house and then be surprised when they're foreclosed, yet no one knows why the housing market crashed? It all comes back to the root of all evil (which I say that playfully): money. People will always want money so they can buy things. Socialism teaches that if someone else has too much money and I don't have enough money, I can just take their money so I have more money. So, in a nutshell, Socialism is a contradiction of itself in a way that it's supposed to be the least greedy of all economic philosophies, yet in practice it is the most greedy of all economic philosophies. The big point that I'm trying to make here is that Capitalism may not be perfect, but it offers everyone the opportunity to succeed and enjoy the benefits of success, whereas Socialism teaches laziness and bastardizes individual success and exceptionalism.

Paragraphs would be nice.  Wink
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dead0man
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« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2012, 11:21:29 PM »

Democracy (R) because when there is Democracy, there is almost always Capitalism, but when there is Capitalism, there may not be Democracy.

See: Present day China
no
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