Cuba Relations Act

[Gabu]

I'm fine with that, Gabu.  I just think that if this were to be passed, it should be passed in combination with some thawing of relations with regards to the Secretary of State making a trip or two and some mutual agreements (and certaing concessions for both sides) being worked out.

I personally think that this is a good idea, as far as I can tell.

The anti-sanctions folk are claiming that exposure to the global economy will result in a freer Cuba politically over time. I disagree. I've never said sanctions would topple the Castro government, I simply don't think people should make assertions in favor of the bill that they can't support.

I'm personally not making this claim.  It might; I don't know, but offhand, I don't see why it would.  I simply feel that the sanctions, as far as I can tell, can only hurt the Cuban people, not those who we'd want it to hurt.  It might be true that free trade would give Castro more, but he's already got pretty much everything he could ever want, while, conversely, allowing the common Cuban to have a little bit more could make a large impact.  I simply don't see the benefit of the sanctions for anyone, and as such, am currently in favor of removing them.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

And opening trade will only further feather Castro's nest, as all trade will go through the state, right?

Temporarily, yes. But, at the same time the people of Cuba, who are not in the wrong, will be better able to get food in their bellies.

According to BRTD Cuba is a paradise.  I mean, they have socialized medicine, right?  According to Ted Kennedy, that makes them better than us.  What do they need our trade for?

I have never said such a thing.

[12th Doctor]

As for myself, since they don't actually achieve any worthy policy goal, why should we pay the costs associated with implementing them?  It would be different if they actually achieved anything, but they don't.

So that, at the end of the day, the Cuban people pay less of a price, in blood, as more money will not be flowing into its dictator's hands.  And there will be less blood on our hands, as well.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Most of the Cuban exiles are poor.  They had nothing, that's why they came here.  Plus, there is evidence that the signals, at least in part, do get through.  Not only that, but Castro sends propaganda broadcasts in our direction.  I know, I picked them up on my short-wave radio one night.

[12th Doctor]

And opening trade will only further feather Castro's nest, as all trade will go through the state, right?

Temporarily, yes. But, at the same time the people of Cuba, who are not in the wrong, will be better able to get food in their bellies.

According to BRTD Cuba is a paradise.  I mean, they have socialized medicine, right?  According to Ted Kennedy, that makes them better than us.  What do they need our trade for?

I have never said such a thing.

You have expressed a desire to live in Cuba in the past.  You also have supported Cuba over the United States.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

And opening trade will only further feather Castro's nest, as all trade will go through the state, right?

Temporarily, yes. But, at the same time the people of Cuba, who are not in the wrong, will be better able to get food in their bellies.

According to BRTD Cuba is a paradise.  I mean, they have socialized medicine, right?  According to Ted Kennedy, that makes them better than us.  What do they need our trade for?

I have never said such a thing.

You have expressed a desire to live in Cuba in the past.  You also have supported Cuba over the United States.

Find these examples because I have never said so. I have said that Cuba is a better place to live than various other dictatorships because of their health and education systems. That's hardly saying it's a pardise, or supporting it over the United States. Maybe you are confusing the US with Pinochet's Chile, although I don't see how someone could do such a thing.

[The Duke]

Ernest,

Radio Marti has a budget of only about $15 million, and out of a budget of $2 trillion I have to question whether if our goal is to cut waste, if the target should be radio free Cuba or something else.  As for the jamming issue, the Soviets jammed Radio Free Europe, the Koreans and Vietnamese jam the Voice of America stations there, yet they have all gotten the job done.  If we're going to quit broadcasting VOA simply because someone dares to try and jam the signal then we should simply become an isolationist nation like we were before the Spanish War, because if we get disheartened at the jamming of a radio signal then we don't have the heart to be a world power anyway.

As for the comment that the purpose of Marti is to secure the Cuban vote, I think this is a difficult position to sustain.  A Democratic congress created Marti, and they certainly weren't trying to secure the Cuban vote since they've never had the Cuban vote.  Are you going to try and convince me that the sole reason Senators from Idaho or Kentucky vote to keep Marti up is to win Cuban voters?  As if the Cuban vote was in doubt anyway.

Like the cost of Marti, the cost of sustaining the blockade is minute.  It is not even a blip on the radar screen of our $2 trillion budget.

In general,

Two things, heretofore unsaid, must be pointed out.

The first is that the US gives food aid to Cuba, so don't worry about the Cuban people not having bread.  The government has made sure that the embargo's effects on the civilian economy are mitigated.

The second is more important.  Currently, the State Department lists Cuba as a state sponsor of terrorism.  No one has mentioned this as of yet.  Its can't be stressed enough.  Castro's long standing involvement with the drug trade and the FARC guerillas must be factored into the equation.  It may be true that neither trade nor embargo can bring down a dictatorship, but there is something that embargoes can do that trade cannot- deny material assets to governments that will re-invest that wealth into activities that do terrible harm.

If you want American dollars flowing to Cuban government coffers, you must know that that money will eventually find its way to the hands of FARC.  The fact is, if it were not for the radical left's infatuation with Castro the subject would not even be brought up.  But because Castro pretends to be for the proletariat, he will always have supporters in the media, the universities, and in leftist activist groups.  Do not fall victim to their fanciful characterization of a man who has spent the last 40 years trying to foment revolution throughout Latin America.  Nicaragua, El Salvador, Venezuela, Grenada, Angola, and Colombia are all current or past targets for Castro's aggressive foreign policy.

Yet not one Senator has seen fit to mention Castro's history, his current policies, or his ties to FARC.  Nor had one single Senator even considered the impact that a lessening of the embargo would have on our relations with regional allies like Colombia.  All we hear is how Castro is no threat, and that the embargo is a cynical ploy by politicians to win Cuban voters.  Hogwash.

This will meet Presidential veto, of course, assuming the Senate is impulsive enough to approve this measure.

[Gabu]

The first is that the US gives food aid to Cuba, so don't worry about the Cuban people not having bread.  The government has made sure that the embargo's effects on the civilian economy are mitigated.

Oh, really?  I wasn't aware of that.  Are there any other such measurements in place to that end?  That was the main reason that I was in support of this, so if that's not the case, I probably won't be.

Additionally, what sort of aid is given to Cuba (i.e., what is it, how much is given, etc.)?

[12th Doctor]

The first is that the US gives food aid to Cuba, so don't worry about the Cuban people not having bread.  The government has made sure that the embargo's effects on the civilian economy are mitigated.

Oh, really?  I wasn't aware of that.  Are there any other such measurements in place to that end?  That was the main reason that I was in support of this, so if that's not the case, I probably won't be.

Additionally, what sort of aid is given to Cuba (i.e., what is it, how much is given, etc.)?

You are currect John.  We also give 9 million meals a day to North Korea.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

If you want to cut off FARC and other narco-terrorists off at their knees, then legalize drugs and take the profit out of smuggling them.  That would help to end violence in Colombia far better than any amount of arm twisting on Castro or military aid to Colombia.  If it weren't for illegal drugs, FARC would have been out of business long ago.

As for $15 million, well if we could cut off enough of these “its only $X million” pork projects, we could save some real money.  The Cubans already know how they suffer under Castro and they don't need Radio Marti to tell them that.  Heck, the Euro-tourists probably do more to tell them that than does Radio Marti, and we don't have to pay them one cent.

[The Duke]

If you want to cut off FARC and other narco-terrorists off at their knees, then legalize drugs and take the profit out of smuggling them.  That would help to end violence in Colombia far better than any amount of arm twisting on Castro or military aid to Colombia.  If it weren't for illegal drugs, FARC would have been out of business long ago.

As for $15 million, well if we could cut off enough of these “its only $X million” pork projects, we could save some real money.  The Cubans already know how they suffer under Castro and they don't need Radio Marti to tell them that.  Heck, the Euro-tourists probably do more to tell them that than does Radio Marti, and we don't have to pay them one cent.

Here is my problem with your FARC argument.

You tell me that we should end the embargo on Cuba to save money.

I say this will lead to more money in FARC's pockets.

You say we legalize drugs and there's no problem with FARC.

I say that legalizing drugs will hurt American society.

I don't know what you'r say next, but the pattern emerges that you defend some idea, and this new policy has potentially disasterous consequences, so you devise a new policy to deal with its effects, and then another to deal with its effects, then another to deal with its effects, eetc.

I have a headache, so the doctor gives me a pill that cures my headache but gives me the flu as a side effect.  So the doctor gives me a syrup that cures my flu but chews my liver up as a side effect.  So the doctor gives me an injection that repairs my liver, but makes me bleed internally.  I don't like this doctor anymore, he seems to make things worse, not better.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I don't know what you'r say next, but the pattern emerges that you defend some idea, and this new policy has potentially disasterous consequences, so you devise a new policy to deal with its effects, and then another to deal with its effects, then another to deal with its effects, eetc.

I have a headache, so the doctor gives me a pill that cures my headache but gives me the flu as a side effect. So the doctor gives me a syrup that cures my flu but chews my liver up as a side effect. So the doctor gives me an injection that repairs my liver, but makes me bleed internally. I don't like this doctor anymore, he seems to make things worse, not better.

I would say that using your analogy, drug addiction is the headache; prohibition is the pill; organized crime and terrorists are the flu; the syrup is the war on drugs; the liver is Colombia; the injection is military aid, and the bleeding, well, the Colombians are doing plenty of that.

[Siege40]

Maybe we should just kill Castro. If we open trade do we strengthen or weaken Castro? If we depose him, will a Castro II just pop-up? We need an expert analyst. I'd like to see Trade resume, but I want to see Castro dead, or at least gone, then again, what right do we have to intervere with the government of another nation... Sigh. I guess we should try trade.

Siege

[Nym90]

I oppose this. John Ford and Supersoulty have said it well; we should not trade with oppressive, brutal regimes, thereby rewarding the dictators in the process.

Of course, the major problem that Atlasia has in this regard, and the reason why the current embargo doesn't work, is that most of our allies do trade with Cuba. That is their choice, of course, but it helps explain why the current embargo isn't working.

In any event, it's true that Cuba is no direct military threat to us, but the potential funding of terrorism is something distrubing, as well. Perhaps a highly restrictive, limited amount of trade would work, but I doubt it.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The first is that the US gives food aid to Cuba, so don't worry about the Cuban people not having bread.  The government has made sure that the embargo's effects on the civilian economy are mitigated.

Oh, really?  I wasn't aware of that.  Are there any other such measurements in place to that end?  That was the main reason that I was in support of this, so if that's not the case, I probably won't be.

Additionally, what sort of aid is given to Cuba (i.e., what is it, how much is given, etc.)?

You are currect John.  We also give 9 million meals a day to North Korea.

you did not answer me. Where did I say that I would like to live in Cuba or that it was preferable to the US?

And when has the FARC attacked or harmed Atlasia?

[12th Doctor]

The first is that the US gives food aid to Cuba, so don't worry about the Cuban people not having bread.  The government has made sure that the embargo's effects on the civilian economy are mitigated.

Oh, really?  I wasn't aware of that.  Are there any other such measurements in place to that end?  That was the main reason that I was in support of this, so if that's not the case, I probably won't be.

Additionally, what sort of aid is given to Cuba (i.e., what is it, how much is given, etc.)?

You are currect John.  We also give 9 million meals a day to North Korea.

you did not answer me. Where did I say that I would like to live in Cuba or that it was preferable to the US?

And when has the FARC attacked or harmed Atlasia?

Perhapes I am mistaken.  I appologize.

[The Duke]

The first is that the US gives food aid to Cuba, so don't worry about the Cuban people not having bread.  The government has made sure that the embargo's effects on the civilian economy are mitigated.

Oh, really?  I wasn't aware of that.  Are there any other such measurements in place to that end?  That was the main reason that I was in support of this, so if that's not the case, I probably won't be.

Additionally, what sort of aid is given to Cuba (i.e., what is it, how much is given, etc.)?

You are currect John.  We also give 9 million meals a day to North Korea.

you did not answer me. Where did I say that I would like to live in Cuba or that it was preferable to the US?

And when has the FARC attacked or harmed Atlasia?

They have harmed American allies, like Colombia.  This is harm to Atlasia.  If we don't stand by our allies, we won't have any left.

[Gabu]

As we now have an opening, I hereby open debate on this bill.

[Gabu]

Apparently no one cares, so I hereby open voting on this bill.

All senators in favor, vote "aye"; all senators against, vote "nay".

[Bono]

Aye

[DanielX]

I urge my senators, and all others, to oppose this measure.

I find it disgusting enough that the US trades with such regimes as Saudi Arabia and China. To expand it to include yet another dictatorship? Sorry, but trade revenues only make the dictator richer, and do little if anything for the poor citizens of a country.

Sorry, but I don't like it.

[The Duke]

NAY

[12th Doctor]

Nay

[Gabu]

In light of John Ford's arguments that basically negated my original reasons to support this bill...

Nay.

[Nym90]

Nay

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Nay