Who won the Debate?

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Lol... oh Jake

[Adam Griffin]

If we're talking about who was the bigger asshole and wasted more time, then Biden. If we're talking about who was more factually and otherwise on-point, then Ryan Biden.

[Brittain33]

This basically stops Romney's rise just as the 2004 VP debate stopped Kerrymentum.

This is not 2004.

It's uncanny how much everything this year has been like 2004.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

If we're talking about who was the bigger asshole and wasted more time, then Biden. If we're talking about who was more factually and otherwise on-point, then Ryan.

um

[Franzl]

If we're talking about who was the bigger asshole and wasted more time, then Biden. If we're talking about who was more factually and otherwise on-point, then Ryan.

Do you know what a fact is?

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

If we're talking about who was the bigger asshole and wasted more time, then Biden. If we're talking about who was more factually and otherwise on-point, then Ryan.

Do you know what a fact is?

A fact is whatever he agrees with... duh.

[zorkpolitics]

Its amazing to me how many people see what they want to see, and can somehow say Biden won?

I thought Biden was arrogant, bullying, and obnoxious, and as one focus group participant said, a buffoon.  Ryan was the better candidate.  Outside of the CBS poll three polls show Ryan won:

Final CNN poll who won? Ryan 49 Biden 43
NBC poll who won? Ryan 56 to Biden 36
AP poll who won? Ryan 51 to Biden 43

[J. J.]

I'm watching the morning shows:

MSNBC:  Biden, to joky, not presidential.

CNN:  Libya

FOX:  Libya

It wasn't a bad debate. 

I'd give it to Ryan on points (largely for style), but not by much, and both candidates had a B+.

[RJ]

A week ago I posted that I thought everyone's, including the media's, take on the first debate was just plain rediculous. Then I come to among others these three opinions:

Biden could have won if he wasn't so arrogant and such a bully...but then he wouldn't be Biden.

I thought Biden was arrogant, bullying, and obnoxious, and as one focus group participant said, a buffoon.  Ryan was the better candidate.  Outside of the CBS poll three polls show Ryan won:

If we're talking about who was the bigger asshole and wasted more time, then Biden. If we're talking about who was more factually and otherwise on-point, then Ryan.

Biden used the same tactics Romney used! He spoke over Ryan, went well past his alotted time(the same way Ryan did) and all but moderated for the moderator. No one had a problem with it when Romney did it. Unfortunately this is what debating has been reduced to in this country! Whoever shouts the loudest and makes the most colorful analogies or memorable statements wins!

There is no way Romney won last week and Biden lost this week. It's complete partisanship to suggest otherwise.

[AmericanNation]

Its amazing to me how many people see what they want to see, and can somehow say Biden won?

I thought Biden was arrogant, bullying, and obnoxious, and as one focus group participant said, a buffoon.  Ryan was the better candidate.  Outside of the CBS poll three polls show Ryan won:

Final CNN poll who won? Ryan 49 Biden 43
NBC poll who won? Ryan 56 to Biden 36
AP poll who won? Ryan 51 to Biden 43

I'm watching the morning shows:

MSNBC:  Biden, to joky, not presidential.

CNN:  Libya

FOX:  Libya

It wasn't a bad debate.  

I'd give it to Ryan on points (largely for style), but not by much, and both candidates had a B+.

It's pretty clear Ryan's performance gets better with time (like I said it would) and Biden's gets worse with time.  If you understand boxing, Biden was wildly throwing a million punches not landing any and Ryan just threw a few straight jabs that landed on the jaw.  
Also, the truth always comes out (eventualy) and Biden's lies are particularly bad because they will keep the Libya thing in the news and perhaps highlight how incompetent the dems are about taxes and revenue (the economy, jobs and debt).      

So Biden lost on 1)Foreign policy and 2) The economy and taxes...  Those aren't big issues. 

[Brittain33]

NBC poll who won? Ryan 56 to Biden 36

Wasn't that a CNBC web poll drawn from whoever was watching on CNBC?

[Kalimantan]

Biden had good points and bad points,some of his punches hit and some missed, the laughing made sense some of the time and didn't at others.

But Ryan looked like a schoolboy, gave no reason to vote for him and was worryingly amateur at times.

Winning or losing doesn't really matter here. Ryan did not look VP material.

[Inmate Trump]

Biden's performance did nothing outside of rile his base.  That was his goal, I guess, but the Democratic base alone is not going to win Obama his reelection.

I know everyone says undecided voters are idiots, blah blah blah...well those are the voters who will decide this election, and the simple fact is that Biden looked bad.  Ryan *literally* could not answer a single question without Biden talking all over him.  Whatever substance was in Biden's arguments was lost by his constant interruptions, mocking laughs, and facial expressions.

You can call undecideds idiots all you want, but they are the ones who are going to elect--or not--your candidate.  Going after your base is one thing; to go after your base at the expense of the undecideds is just plain stupid, and I think that's what happened with the way Biden handled himself.  How hard is it to give your opponent a chance to answer a question and simply attack his answer after he's made it, rather than interrupt him every single time he opens his mouth?  Even if what Ryan said was not factual, let him dig his own grave with his lies, don't dig yourself one too!

[AmericanNation]

Biden's performance did nothing outside of rile his base.  That was his goal, I guess, but the Democratic base alone is not going to win Obama his reelection.

I know everyone says undecided voters are idiots, blah blah blah...well those are the voters who will decide this election, and the simple fact is that Biden looked bad.  Ryan *literally* could not answer a single question without Biden talking all over him.  Whatever substance was in Biden's arguments was lost by his constant interruptions, mocking laughs, and facial expressions.

You can call undecideds idiots all you want, but they are the ones who are going to elect--or not--your candidate.  Going after your base is one thing; to go after your base at the expense of the undecideds is just plain stupid, and I think that's what happened with the way Biden handled himself.  How hard is it to give your opponent a chance to answer a question and simply attack his answer after he's made it, rather than interrupt him every single time he opens his mouth?  Even if what Ryan said was not factual, let him dig his own grave with his lies, don't dig yourself one too!

yes, yes, and yes, but Biden made dems feel better about themselves so Biden won.  

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Remember that CBS was the only poll of undecided voters specifically, and had Biden up by a fairly significant margin (not as good as Romney's last week, though).

[Wonkish1]

Look I'm no Biden fan, but when that debate was over I thought Biden won. When the poll results came in my mouth dropped. I sat their scratching my head for a while.

Then slowly the rationale started coming out. Women! The story of the night is that women felt that he had gone so, so, so far overboard in his behavior that they couldn't stand it which resulted in a bit of a stalemate.

I wouldn't think that women would have seen things so completely differently than I did. Apparently they did see it differently and this site is basically one large sausage fest. That could be your answer as to why your seeing some GOP posters saying that Biden won on here, but a different result outside of here.


The apparent conclusion to draw from this: A few interruptions = net bonus. Go overboard with that and add some condescension and women apparently think you're an A-hole(but less so men).  Learn something new everyday. They'll probably be some obscure manual/book written by a consultant about this and disseminated to the all the political consultancy firms for a high price after this election. Hell it may even quantity the exact amount of interruptions one should engage in(focus group tested of course) and how many seconds of condescension a politician should practice in a single debate.


PS: If women really did dislike Biden's performance a lot than under the surface that's a little bit rough for Dems. That would mean that they have turned in 2 debate performances that women disliked.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

I don't think there is any consensus on who "won" the debate. Biden was clearly more knowledgable on the issues as he should be. Biden isn't an idiot. Anyone who thought he would be outmatched by Ryan in this debate needs to clear their eyes and ears. He is no idiot.

But debates aren't always about facts. In 1960, those listening to the debate thought Nixon won, but when those who watched the debate were asked, they picked Kennedy. The fact is, Biden came off as too over the top, almost like he was on something. I get that the Democrats wanted to "call out" Romney/Ryan on their lies in the last debate, but he was trying to hard, which explains why the polls coming out indicated a mixed result. Biden stopped the bleeding among the Democrats, but you won't see a "bounce" coming from this.

The main event will take place on Tuesday. If Obama wins the debate, the election is over. If Romney wins, I think he becomes the favorite to win the election. If it's a tie, it will be close with Obama the favorite.

[Wonkish1]

The main event will take place on Tuesday. If Obama wins the debate, the election is over. If Romney wins, I think he becomes the favorite to win the election. If it's a tie, it will be close with Obama the favorite.

The last debate is going to likely be the main event just because of the relatively short memories of voters.

If you actually watch Obama's old debates he may do well in townhall setting next week, but don't expect really much better performance(than last time) at the podiums. The way he talked in last debate was much the exact same way he talked all over 2008. The only 2 differences is Obama's face and that McCain sucked at debating in 2008. The "uhhh...uhh..uh...you see (moderator's name)...uh...uh...we..uh..we need to blah, blah, blah." Romney can get in almost twice the amount of words per minute as Obama can and no matter what performance you grab in Obama's past he's never been able to overcome that. It will be there in the last debate. Obama's best shot in the last debate is to jam in a zinger that Romney can't respond to causing Mitt to look bad.

[Wonkish1]

Everybody had their expectations so far off going into these debates.

If you asked the average person 3 weeks ago what they thought the performances would be...they would have said Obama > Romney and Biden < Ryan.  That is just so naive. Going into the Romney, Obama debate I had a lot higher expectations for Mitt than most and going into Biden, Ryan I was telling everybody around me to mute their expectations because the higher expectations for Ryan are undeserved.

People are forgetting that Biden largely survived in presidential nominations almost exclusively on debate skills. He had nothing else and if he didn't have that then he would have been the first one out of every presidential election. People also seem to make the mistake of applying Obama's oratory skills to the debate. They aren't the same thing. They seem to forget that Obama takes considerably long times(at least for a politician) to gather his thoughts in response to a question. Paul Ryan has talents suitable for a committee hearing more than anything else. He asks good questions, he talks intricacies of policy well, etc. He also is the type that deliver one hell of a power point presentation. In none of these situations does he do rough and tumble.

So when I read and watch the expectations put out there by pundits, media, etc. I just assume that they don't watch debate reruns and they don't understand the types of talents that go into debates vs. other communication delivery methods.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Nah, the third debate is usually the least watched and most people who are "undecided" make up their minds by then. The second debate this year will be crucial merely because how poorly Obama did in the first debate. People will tune in to see if he can rebound and if Romney can continue his momentum.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Look I'm no Biden fan, but when that debate was over I thought Biden won. When the poll results came in my mouth dropped. I sat their scratching my head for a while.

Then slowly the rationale started coming out. Women! The story of the night is that women felt that he had gone so, so, so far overboard in his behavior that they couldn't stand it which resulted in a bit of a stalemate.

I wouldn't think that women would have seen things so completely differently than I did. Apparently they did see it differently and this site is basically one large sausage fest. That could be your answer as to why your seeing some GOP posters saying that Biden won on here, but a different result outside of here.


The apparent conclusion to draw from this: A few interruptions = net bonus. Go overboard with that and add some condescension and women apparently think you're an A-hole(but less so men).  Learn something new everyday. They'll probably be some obscure manual/book written by a consultant about this and disseminated to the all the political consultancy firms for a high price after this election. Hell it may even quantity the exact amount of interruptions one should engage in(focus group tested of course) and how many seconds of condescension a politician should practice in a single debate.


PS: If women really did dislike Biden's performance a lot than under the surface that's a little bit rough for Dems. That would mean that they have turned in 2 debate performances that women disliked.

Come to think of it, this seems possible, although most of the women in my life, who tend to be what was referred to as 'brassy' back when people called women 'brassy', didn't have this reaction. A little depressing, because 'tone arguments' are almost always depressing, but possible.

[BigSkyBob]

Remember that CBS was the only poll of undecided voters specifically, and had Biden up by a fairly significant margin (not as good as Romney's last week, though).

So, Ryan won both polls of the general electorate?

Winning by losing is an interesting position to take!

[BigSkyBob]

CNN's snap poll is the result of a very Republican (R+2 to be exact) audience for the debate. Shows that Republicans are enthusiastic and paying close attention to the election but it also puts Ryan edging out Biden in their poll in better perspective.

Snap polls that don't poll undecided voters are relatively useless.

Snap polls ought to survey the electorate, not specific subgroups of the electorate.

[Wonkish1]

Nah, the third debate is usually the least watched and most people who are "undecided" make up their minds by then. The second debate this year will be crucial merely because how poorly Obama did in the first debate. People will tune in to see if he can rebound and if Romney can continue his momentum.

What about Reagan vs. Carter last debate? Reagan vs. Mondale last debate? Or W. vs. Kerry last debate(where at least W. stopped the bleeding).


Going into next debate I think the overwhelming odds are for next debate that it will be a tie. The reasons include:
1) Obama will feel more comfortable in a town hall setting
2) But he still will not be able to get over his excessively long time to gather his thoughts while he drops his 'umms', Romney will still be able to get in more words per minute.
3) The fact that responses are directed to the audience with the candidate standing instead of directing it more to the other candidate will mean that Romney's ability to be somewhat combative will be muted.

The big mistake for Obama: Is to try to overcompensate for his last debate performance and try to direct tougher hits toward Romney instead of engage in the audience. Town hall style is not a place to go after the other guy. Remember the moment where Gore got up and tried to 'intimidate' Bush in 2000. It didn't work well.

The big mistake for Romney: Interruptions. While it seems that a few(but not many) interruptions in a podium debate is a net positive, I find it hard to believe that could ever go well in a town hall debate. First of all, you have to physically stand up to pull off the interruption and that isn't a good visual.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Remember that CBS was the only poll of undecided voters specifically, and had Biden up by a fairly significant margin (not as good as Romney's last week, though).

So, Ryan won both polls of the general electorate?

Winning by losing is an interesting position to take!

The debate viewership was Republican enough that Ryan's narrow 'victory' within it could be easily construed as a tie or narrow 'defeat' if one were inclined to the sort of reweighting that you guys were engaging heavily in when Obama was significantly ahead nationwide. As it is, I really don't see the (electoral) relevance of who 'won' the debate in the minds of people whose intended vote is already decided anyway.