Does being for less immigration mean a party is inherently right-wing?

[DC Al Fine]

I'm sorry but xenophobia is one of the things that kind of dismisses you as left-wing. Left-wing is not just on economy, left-wing is a package on all topics. As for reducing immigration, it can be advocated without xenophobic stances, so it's a bit so-so. But if you're willing to apply the exact same law on all issues to immigrants as well as national citizens, there is no argument to reduce immigration. I mean when you say it causes downward pressure on wages, you just have to apply the same wage-laws to every one and that's not an issue anymore.

Those who want less immigration are typically those who fear for their "identity" whatever the hell that can be. So broadly speaking, yes they are right-wing.

Bullsh**t, the supporters of parties like the BNP are lefties to to the core. They are anti market, pro union, and pro welfare state and arguably better social democrats than labour. Furthermore, the economic spectrum is accepted almost everywhere as the divider between "right" and "left". Unless you are willing to call libertarians "left" your argument falls short.

[DC Al Fine]

Precisely my point. Many sources in the 1930's sources viewed the National Socialists and Fascists as members of the left. Anti communist members of the left, but leftists nonetheless. As opposed to "far-right" parties like the DNVP which were monarchist, hierarchical.

To put it in terms of Dutch politics, it appears that PVV has more in common with Labour or SP than they do with right wing parties like the CDA, VVD, or Christian Union. I'd certainly grant that there are a lot of right wing, anti-immigrant parties out there like UKIP or some Republicans, but it is certainly not a left/right issue in the sense that taxes or universal health care is.

I'd compare immigration to foreign policy where both left and right are split. There are old right republicans and libertarians that are doves and hawkish neocons. Likewise pacifists and Joe Lieberman both vote democrat. In each case the issue is split, unlike most social and economic issues that divide left and right more cleanly.

[DC Al Fine]

Comrade Sibboleth, would you mind posting or PM'ing me some of those right wing economic historians who think the Nazi's were economic right wingers? A quick google search just garnered me the von Mises institute talking about how much of a raging socialist Hitler was.

The issue of whether the Nazis were left or right is irrelevant to my original point; immigration does not produce a clean left-right split like other issues.

[DC Al Fine]

What Sibboleth said. Xenophobia is a right-wing value. Openness and internationalism are left-wing values. Period.

1. Openness and internationalism are liberal/libertarian values as well, and socialists can be nationalist (most third world/ex colony socialists are).

2. You don't have to be xenophobic to be anti-immigration. There are plenty of economic and environmental reasons to be against mass immigration.

3. It doesn't make much sense to define right and left in other terms than socioeconomic ones.

#2 is especially relevant. You should hear what members of the Parti Quebecois think of anglophone migrants to "their" province.

[DC Al Fine]

Not this sh!t again. One of these days this kind of drivel will actually drive me to commit a violent act. But not tonight. Instead...

Since nobody was calling the Nazi's left wing, we'd rather you dealth with the Idea that maybe fully fledged economic collectivism and democratic socialism can co-exist with racial prejudice, national patriotism and xenophobia.

It can and it has with astonishing regularity, especially in Europe.

[DC Al Fine]

Not this sh!t again. One of these days this kind of drivel will actually drive me to commit a violent act. But not tonight. Instead...

Since nobody was calling the Nazi's left wing, we'd rather you dealth with the Idea that maybe fully fledged economic collectivism and democratic socialism can co-exist with racial prejudice, national patriotism and xenophobia.

It can and it has with astonishing regularity, especially in Europe.

For example?

British National Party (UK)
Front National (France)
Democratie National (Belgium)
Danish People's Party (Denmark)
National Democratic Party (Germany)
Attack (Bulgaria)
Slovak National Party (Slovakia)

[DC Al Fine]

Oh f' off. The BNP spend 90% of their time ranting against Marxists, as I'm sure do their counterparts. Their support for socialism is as much that know they wouldn't stand a chance with attracting working class support if they dropped their welfare policies.

Prove it. I was just on the BNP site. Plenty about "muslim paedophiles", marxists not so much.

[DC Al Fine]

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[DC Al Fine]

I'm sorry but xenophobia is one of the things that kind of dismisses you as left-wing. Left-wing is not just on economy, left-wing is a package on all topics. As for reducing immigration, it can be advocated without xenophobic stances, so it's a bit so-so. But if you're willing to apply the exact same law on all issues to immigrants as well as national citizens, there is no argument to reduce immigration. I mean when you say it causes downward pressure on wages, you just have to apply the same wage-laws to every one and that's not an issue anymore.

Those who want less immigration are typically those who fear for their "identity" whatever the hell that can be. So broadly speaking, yes they are right-wing.

Bullsh**t, the supporters of parties like the BNP are lefties to to the core. They are anti market, pro union, and pro welfare state and arguably better social democrats than labour. Furthermore, the economic spectrum is accepted almost everywhere as the divider between "right" and "left". Unless you are willing to call libertarians "left" your argument falls short.

Hahahaha.  I'm not even European, and I'm entirely aware that the BNP is the farthest thing from being "lefties."  They are racist, authoritarian right wing nationalists to the core.

Laughter+A bald assertion =/ A cogent argument.

[DC Al Fine]

I'm afraid that what's not clear to some is that is not enough to say "More houses for the poor!Higher minimum wage!" to be left-wing.

Many neo-fascist groups propose such a "social agenda", trying to appeal to the working class and at the same time to hide their hate towards whoever is "different" (LGBT,foreigners).
Hate which, more often than not, degenerates into physical aggressions.

So,yes,to say that the BNP or the Front National are left-wing is nothing other than believing what they want you to believe, and not look at what they actually do and think.

Economic views has been the left/right standard for centuries. If you use social agenda as your dividing line, you wind up with absurdities like having to call Gary Johnson a lefty or Stalin a right winger.

[DC Al Fine]

I'm afraid that what's not clear to some is that is not enough to say "More houses for the poor!Higher minimum wage!" to be left-wing.

Many neo-fascist groups propose such a "social agenda", trying to appeal to the working class and at the same time to hide their hate towards whoever is "different" (LGBT,foreigners).
Hate which, more often than not, degenerates into physical aggressions.

So,yes,to say that the BNP or the Front National are left-wing is nothing other than believing what they want you to believe, and not look at what they actually do and think.

Economic views has been the left/right standard for centuries. If you use social agenda as your dividing line, you wind up with absurdities like having to call Gary Johnson a lefty or Stalin a right winger.

You obviously misunderstood me.

I am saying that they are authoritarian right-wingers who claim to have leftist views on topics such as housing or welfare just to get more popular support from the working class.
But these remain simple claims, since they never get elected to anything.
So they get some support from the working class and at the same time they appear "civilized" to people like you or whoever tries to make an analysis purely on "formal programmes", but in reality they are (violent) semi-fascists.

And at that point the question is: do you think fascism is left-wing?

First, take a look at my political matrix score in my signature. I'm a hardcore, right wing reactionary. Why would left wing fiscal views seem "respectable" to me? Fascists are godless heathens who worship their race and the state.

I'd dispute your "they never get elected" claim. Front National in France for example has controlled local governments and increased welfare measure that the Parti Socialiste abandoned.

To answer your question, I'll use the BNP as my example. It depends on where you put the centre. If we are talking American politics, then absolutely yes. The same goes for British or Australian politics, where  the BNP is well to the left of Labour. Throughout the Anglosphere, the BNP is to the left of virtually all major parties. Now of course if they were in Sweden, the BNP would be right wing.

However, in the context of this forum I would call fascism left wing. It is certainly to the right of communism and most forms of socialism, but it is still a left leaning ideology.

[DC Al Fine]

Economic views has been the left/right standard for centuries.

JUST. F.U.C.K.I.N.G. NO.
It wasn't what defined them in the first place in the National Assembly of the French Revolution where it originated, and still isn't enough anywhere except for political maniacs or dumbasses like you seem to be.

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Yes ! Gary Johnson AND Joseph Stalin ARE right-wingers for f**k's sake.

However, in the context of this forum I would call fascism left wing. It is certainly to the right of communism and most forms of socialism, but it is still a left leaning ideology.

In the context of this forum, I will just call the ice liquid, chlorophyllia red, haggis a dessert, the Earth flat, and your account ignored from now on.

Haggis is delicious and don't you forget it.