Who won the debate?

[Vosem]

I'm going to go ahead and say I'm not entirely sure I see how the Libya moment was such an overwhelming Obama victory; here's the transcript:

OBAMA: Secretary Clinton has done an extraordinary job. But she works for me. I’m the president and I’m always responsible, and that’s why nobody’s more interested in finding out exactly what happened than I do.
The day after the attack, governor, I stood in the Rose Garden and I told the American people in the world that we are going to find out exactly what happened. That this was an act of terror and I also said that we’re going to hunt down those who committed this crime.
And then a few days later, I was there greeting the caskets coming into Andrews Air Force Base and grieving with the families.
And the suggestion that anybody in my team, whether the Secretary of State, our U.N. Ambassador, anybody on my team would play politics or mislead when we’ve lost four of our own, governor, is offensive. That’s not what we do. That’s not what I do as president, that’s not what I do as Commander in Chief.
CROWLEY: Governor, if you want to…
ROMNEY: Yes, I — I…
CROWLEY: … quickly to this please.
ROMNEY: I — I think interesting the president just said something which — which is that on the day after the attack he went into the Rose Garden and said that this was an act of terror.
OBAMA: That’s what I said.
ROMNEY: You said in the Rose Garden the day after the attack, it was an act of terror.
It was not a spontaneous demonstration, is that what you’re saying?
OBAMA: Please proceed governor.
ROMNEY: I want to make sure we get that for the record because it took the president 14 days before he called the attack in Benghazi an act of terror.
OBAMA: Get the transcript.
CROWLEY: It — it — it — he did in fact, sir. So let me — let me call it an act of terror…
OBAMA: Can you say that a little louder, Candy?
CROWLEY: He — he did call it an act of terror. (applause) It did as well take — it did as well take two weeks or so for the whole idea there being a riot out there about this tape to come out. You are correct about that. (applause)
ROMNEY: This — the administration — the administration indicated this was a reaction to a video and was a spontaneous reaction.
CROWLEY: It did.
ROMNEY: It took them a long time to say this was a terrorist act by a terrorist group. And to suggest — am I incorrect in that regard, on Sunday, the — your secretary –
OBAMA: Candy?
ROMNEY: Excuse me. The ambassador of the United Nations went on the Sunday television shows and spoke about how –
OBAMA: Candy, I’m –
ROMNEY: — this was a spontaneous –
CROWLEY: Mr. President, let me –
OBAMA: I’m happy to have a longer conversation –
CROWLEY: I know you –
OBAMA: — about foreign policy.
CROWLEY: Absolutely. But I want to — I want to move you on and also –
OBAMA: OK. I’m happy to do that, too.
CROWLEY: — the transcripts and –
OBAMA: I just want to make sure that –
CROWLEY: — figure out what we –
OBAMA: — all of these wonderful folks are going to have a chance to get some of their questions answered.

So Crowley merely said that he used that phrase, but backed Romney saying it had taken 2 weeks for the idea of it being a terrorist act to come out. Unless the clip you saw ended where Crowley said "He did call it an act of terror," I don't see how that particular moment is going to help Obama in any particular way. Both the statement that Obama had used the phrase and the statement that it had taken 2 weeks to paint a fuller picture received applause from the audience. The moment did not come across to me as a 'Gerald Ford moment', or even a moment in which Romney looked worse than Obama; both candidates came off as telling only the part of the truth which helped them. Two gaffes canceling each other out, if you will.

Nevertheless, the debate was an Obama victory, if only because Obama actually engaged Romney and that's bound to energize parts of the left (polling seems to be indicating it was a more decisive victory than Biden's, which resulted in about a 1-point bounce which was then reversing before this debate, but obviously nothing close to Romney's first-debate victory). But I quibble on the idea that Obama won the Libya confrontation; that moment specifically I think was a draw.

[Vosem]

Uh, I'm not really sure you get to absorb the debate in an entirely different format than viewed by tens of millions and get to say that you don't think it was an effective moment for Obama.

Except that's not what I did -- I watched the debate and a good 45 minutes of after-debate coverage on YouTube, then decided to go to bed and posted my reaction the following morning on Atlas; I simply got the transcript to point out that it didn't strike me as a significant moment (and that afterwards, they spent more time talking about the exchange earlier in the debate about licenses to use public lands than that exchange), while everyone on the forum was saying it was so good for Obama. On top of the fact that the moderator called both of them out, both candidates received applause, and during the key moment all three of them were speaking simultaneously. Obama won the debate, but I maintain the Libya exchange was a draw and fundamentally had little or nothing to do with his victory.

What you think of that moment substantively is irrelevant, it was a smashing Obama high point in the debate broadcast, and the biggest moment of the debate. End of.

Why? 'End of' isn't a reason.

[Vosem]

I personally will defer to our resident Libya expert on that particular question. Vosem did, after all, humiliate a (liebiral) school teacher on this very issue.

http://pete.com/view/calm-down-bro

Two things:
a) I'd really appreciate it if someone instructed me how to make images visible instead of posting links, that's getting annoying.
b) Read the post, man...we're discussing voter reactions to the candidate's exchange on Libya, which is a topic rather far removed from the question of whether or not Obama should've intervened in Libya in '11.

[Vosem]

It was certainly very interesting (in the Chinese sense).