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Author Topic: State of the Senate right now  (Read 18744 times)
Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon
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« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2004, 09:10:54 am »
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And the #1 job is not to elect Republicans, it is to make the country more conservative in the long run.  If another Barry Goldwater leads to another Ronald Reagan, it is more than worth it to lose one Senate seat in Pennsylvania.

The job of Conservatives is to make the country more conservative in the long run.  The job of folks such as myself is to make the country better in the long run.  The job of the Republican party is to make the country more Republican in the long run, because the Republican Party is comprised of far more than just the far-right.

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I would take a Zell Miller Demcorat over a Chris Shays republican any day of the week.

Though I think that Campaign Finance Deform is one of the most evil things that has ever been unleashed upon our nation - and I confronted him about it at a CFR event - Chris Shays is a good Republican and should stay right where he is.  Connecticut would only replace him with a Democrat.
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Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon
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« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2004, 09:13:58 am »
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Right on the Mark, Mark!

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As for Toomey, I like him as well, but he will be at best a 50/50 shot in the general election while Specter is a guaranteed winner. I can't believe that Conservatives in PA would be dumb enough to abandon Specter and let a Democrat be elected...
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Rococo4
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« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2004, 10:07:51 am »
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Specter has been the Senator from PA for a long time and has won with comfy margins and is by all accounts - even by most Toomey supporters - a stronger candidate against Hoffel.  The problem is that if Toomey was the nominee, half his potential voters (moderates in suburban Philly) will be alienated from him and the Dems will win.  How many times does a freakishly conservative candidate (Simon, Shallenberger, etc.) have to lose a race that we could have easily won with a more moderate candidate for you folks to realize that Republicans win when we match the hopes, dreams, and aspirations of the voters - not just nominate candidates who are hardcore ideologues.  Thank heavens there was no primary for the California recall race otherwise you guys probably would have screwed that up too.

I disagree on PA's Senate race.  No conservative will vote Specter.  If he is the nominee, half his potential voters will be alienated from the GOP Senate candidate and the Dems will win.

This is just a special case....we are not out there backing other challengers, nor would we be.  Specter has to go. He can not be in charge of Judicary.  Thats all this is about.  I agree Specter would win the General, and Toomey would be 50/50 to win, but I also think we will hold the Senate.  A lesson needs to be shown that you cant act like a Dem then change in your election yr.  The real moderates like Snowe, Collins and Chafee at least have principles, even though I disagree with them.
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bullmoose88
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« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2004, 10:23:04 am »
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We know what happens when the Republican Party decides to say, "Screw Reality, Lets Nominate an Ideologue and be a Movement"...

Its called Goldwater...and 6 states.

Go ahead and try, but don't expect us moderates to clean up your mess.
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Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon
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« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2004, 10:37:24 am »
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AMEN.

We know what happens when the Republican Party decides to say, "Screw Reality, Lets Nominate an Ideologue and be a Movement"...

Its called Goldwater...and 6 states.

Go ahead and try, but don't expect us moderates to clean up your mess.
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Comrade Sibboleth
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« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2004, 10:43:47 am »
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...and 5 of those were more to do with blatent race-baiting than anything else...

Go on! Nominate Goldwater mkII!
Pleeeeeeeaaaaaaaaase...
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« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2004, 10:48:39 am »
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AMEN.

We know what happens when the Republican Party decides to say, "Screw Reality, Lets Nominate an Ideologue and be a Movement"...

Its called Goldwater...and 6 states.

Go ahead and try, but don't expect us moderates to clean up your mess.

you guys are just plain wrong.  It is one senator and it is only a big deal because of the position he is in line to get if he wins reelection.  We have too many moderates in the party now - but no one is trying to get rid of them.  I dont see how any Republican could support Specter.  There is just a laundry list of reasons not to.  

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Fmr. Gov. NickG
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« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2004, 10:51:33 am »
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Kansas went pretty heavily for Bush in 2000.  Now they've got a Democrat Governor cause we nominated someone that was too conservative for KANSAS   But I guess that was still a victory for you, eh?

At least you are supporting Mel in Florida, though I wish Mark Foley would have stayed in the race.

I agree we have a shot in IL if we play our cards right, but NV is hopeless after all our first, second, third, fourth, and fifth tier candidates dropped out.

I've already said, I think Toomey will win and is a better candidate than Specter.

I also think the Republicans are the favorites in Colorado, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Florida if they nominate Mel Martinez.  All these states went to bush in 2000.

We also have a shot in Illinois and Nevada.

I have no expectations of losing the Seante, with or without the Pennsylvania seat.

Foley might have been the GOP's best candidate in the general, but he could not have won a GOP primary with so many Christian conservatives against him.

And JohnFord...I don't think the Republicans even have a legitimate candidate in Nevada.
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Rococo4
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« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2004, 10:58:32 am »
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Kansas went pretty heavily for Bush in 2000.  Now they've got a Democrat Governor cause we nominated someone that was too conservative for KANSAS   But I guess that was still a victory for you, eh?

At least you are supporting Mel in Florida, though I wish Mark Foley would have stayed in the race.

I agree we have a shot in IL if we play our cards right, but NV is hopeless after all our first, second, third, fourth, and fifth tier candidates dropped out.

I've already said, I think Toomey will win and is a better candidate than Specter.

I also think the Republicans are the favorites in Colorado, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Florida if they nominate Mel Martinez.  All these states went to bush in 2000.

We also have a shot in Illinois and Nevada.

I have no expectations of losing the Seante, with or without the Pennsylvania seat.

Foley might have been the GOP's best candidate in the general, but he could not have won a GOP primary with so many Christian conservatives against him.

And JohnFord...I don't think the Republicans even have a legitimate candidate in Nevada.

seems to me the FLA Senate race will be almost strictly determined by the Presidential race.....i am willing to bet there will be almost 0 people who vote Bush, but for the Dem nominee or vice versa.  This isnt all that common, but sometimes you see it, like in 2000 (Bush won in NE by alot, but Ben Nelson won a close race for Senate, there are many examples).  FLA will not be one of them.
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Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon
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« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2004, 11:09:26 am »
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Someone catch me... I'm about to faint.  Speechless really.

"Too many moderates"... well.. just you wait.. we're only going to get bigger and bigger and bigger...

I don't see how any Republican could support a Democrat having a better chance at winning the seat.

AMEN.

We know what happens when the Republican Party decides to say, "Screw Reality, Lets Nominate an Ideologue and be a Movement"...

Its called Goldwater...and 6 states.

Go ahead and try, but don't expect us moderates to clean up your mess.

you guys are just plain wrong.  It is one senator and it is only a big deal because of the position he is in line to get if he wins reelection.  We have too many moderates in the party now - but no one is trying to get rid of them.  I dont see how any Republican could support Specter.  There is just a laundry list of reasons not to.  


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Rococo4
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« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2004, 11:11:20 am »
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Someone catch me... I'm about to faint.  Speechless really.

"Too many moderates"... well.. just you wait.. we're only going to get bigger and bigger and bigger...

I don't see how any Republican could support a Democrat having a better chance at winning the seat.

AMEN.

We know what happens when the Republican Party decides to say, "Screw Reality, Lets Nominate an Ideologue and be a Movement"...

Its called Goldwater...and 6 states.

Go ahead and try, but don't expect us moderates to clean up your mess.

you guys are just plain wrong.  It is one senator and it is only a big deal because of the position he is in line to get if he wins reelection.  We have too many moderates in the party now - but no one is trying to get rid of them.  I dont see how any Republican could support Specter.  There is just a laundry list of reasons not to.  



and i dont see how any Republican could vote for Specter over Toomey, because Toomey is actually a Republican, not just a politican with a "R" next to his name
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Comrade Sibboleth
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« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2004, 11:21:14 am »
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Rococo... moderates are often better members of their respective parties than fire eaters in nice safe seats.
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« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2004, 11:39:25 am »
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Rococo... moderates are often better members of their respective parties than fire eaters in nice safe seats.


yes they are sometimes, actully most of the time, yes your right.  not this time.  Specter is not your average moderate.  I will just have to disagree with you all on this one.
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Rococo4
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« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2004, 11:45:55 am »
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I am sure you will love Specter if he becomes Judicary Cmte. chairman and rejects a Bush SCOTUS nomiantion because they are too conservative for him.  (assuming GWB wins again).  or appeals court judges for that matter

IF you see Specter as Judicary chairman i think you guys will realize what this is about......if it wasnt for the fact of what he is going to become in the Senate, frankly i wouldnt care if beat Toomey or not.
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Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon
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« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2004, 12:13:07 pm »
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President Bush seems to be comfortable with him.  Vice-President Cheney seems to be comfortable with him.  Senator Santorum seems to be comfortable with him.  If they are comfortable, I'm comfortable with him.

I am sure you will love Specter if he becomes Judicary Cmte. chairman and rejects a Bush SCOTUS nomiantion because they are too conservative for him.  (assuming GWB wins again).  or appeals court judges for that matter

IF you see Specter as Judicary chairman i think you guys will realize what this is about......if it wasnt for the fact of what he is going to become in the Senate, frankly i wouldnt care if beat Toomey or not.
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Rococo4
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« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2004, 12:22:14 pm »
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President Bush seems to be comfortable with him.  Vice-President Cheney seems to be comfortable with him.  Senator Santorum seems to be comfortable with him.  If they are comfortable, I'm comfortable with him.

I am sure you will love Specter if he becomes Judicary Cmte. chairman and rejects a Bush SCOTUS nomiantion because they are too conservative for him.  (assuming GWB wins again).  or appeals court judges for that matter

IF you see Specter as Judicary chairman i think you guys will realize what this is about......if it wasnt for the fact of what he is going to become in the Senate, frankly i wouldnt care if beat Toomey or not.

I dont think Bush would come out against any Republican senator for reelection - you dont do that.  The most he would do is stay neutral, like he did against Bob Smith in 02 in NH.  Bush wants to win PA and he doesnt want to look too extreme, which he feels supporting Toomey would make him do
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bullmoose88
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« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2004, 03:35:24 pm »
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Htmldon,

you know the scary thing is, if the rightwing of the party is correct in thinking that indeed they are 70%+ of the party and that we're expendable, just the 5% swing from us leaving the GOP and--God Forbid--going to the Democrats would keep the GOP out of office for a very very very very long time.

Now what if we're 40% or 45%? or more? >P
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« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2004, 06:30:13 pm »
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I dont think you are getting my point.  Specter is one case by itself.  We are not trying to push out any other moderates.  
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« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2004, 07:49:07 pm »
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Rococo is right.

We are not tryingn to purge moderates.  There is no desire from me to oust Schwarzenegger form me out here in CA.  Mitt Romeny in MA, Pataki in NY, all fine with me, because that is the best we can hope for.  However, this is a special case.  Specter will cause more harm than a freshmen Democrat because of the power he will have.  Also, this is a state that just re-elected Rick Santorum.  They will, of course, elect Toomey if we send him up.

And by the way guys, the last time we tried to be a movement we won 49 states.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2004, 07:50:14 pm by JohnD.Ford »Logged

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« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2004, 08:10:51 pm »
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Rococo is right.

We are not tryingn to purge moderates.  There is no desire from me to oust Schwarzenegger form me out here in CA.  Mitt Romeny in MA, Pataki in NY, all fine with me, because that is the best we can hope for.  However, this is a special case.  Specter will cause more harm than a freshmen Democrat because of the power he will have.  Also, this is a state that just re-elected Rick Santorum.  They will, of course, elect Toomey if we send him up.

And by the way guys, the last time we tried to be a movement we won 49 states.

Thanks for the backup......good points about Romney, Arnold, etc.  Specter absoluetly would do more damage as Judicary Cmte. Chairman than a freshman PA Dem Senator
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Dave from Michigan
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« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2004, 08:51:54 pm »
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When is the pennslyvannia republican senate primary
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Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon
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« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2004, 09:26:31 pm »
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So you are more supportive of Democrats than Republicans.  I see exactly where you stand.

Rococo is right.

We are not tryingn to purge moderates.  There is no desire from me to oust Schwarzenegger form me out here in CA.  Mitt Romeny in MA, Pataki in NY, all fine with me, because that is the best we can hope for.  However, this is a special case.  Specter will cause more harm than a freshmen Democrat because of the power he will have.  Also, this is a state that just re-elected Rick Santorum.  They will, of course, elect Toomey if we send him up.

And by the way guys, the last time we tried to be a movement we won 49 states.

Thanks for the backup......good points about Romney, Arnold, etc.  Specter absoluetly would do more damage as Judicary Cmte. Chairman than a freshman PA Dem Senator
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« Reply #47 on: March 31, 2004, 10:24:04 pm »
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What are you talking about, Don?

Neither Rococo or I said that.  I said that a Benedict Arnold with power will do more damage than a Democrat who no one cares about because he is a freshman.  You refuse to acknowledge that Specter is a sh*tty Senator, and you refuse to acknowledge that Toomey is perfectly electable.

Toomey is a regular old republican, Santorum is a radical religious zealot.  PA will be more than willing to elect Toomey if they will elect Santorum.

Let me ask you directly, then.  Do you believe that a state that has twice sent Rick Santorum to the Seante will reject Pat Toomey?
« Last Edit: March 31, 2004, 10:25:39 pm by JohnD.Ford »Logged

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« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2004, 12:01:08 am »
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They just keep ignoring that we are just anti-Specter...whatever.  No obvioulsy we are not for Democrats over Republicans.  We think  (know) Toomey would be a better Senator and can win, so thats why we want him to defeat Specter
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bullmoose88
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« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2004, 12:52:41 am »
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I have to ask again...

Santorum was last elected in 2000, with a very weak majority (53-47 or 52-48 against a weak democrat)

That was before he opened his big mouth and started to piss off those who lived in the Southeast. Like it or not, we're the fastest growing part of the state, with some of the largest registered republican populations--if not the largest--in the state.

If George W. Bush said the same things tricky rick said in the last 2 years...he'd have no chance in hell here.

As for Toomey, he barely won against an inept candidate in the 15th. If he wins, all those Specter voters will find Hoffel a more compatible candidate.

 
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A Socially Liberal, Fiscally Conservative NE Republican with some Left-Libertarian/3rd Way Leanings. Simply, a Rockefeller Republican.

According to one poster, I represent a...

Dying bread of Americans.
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