Politico: Obama will have no mandate because he will lose white men!

[badgate]

I had no clue unenlightened white folk = mandate. Huh.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Can we please keep the classist undertones to a minimum, guys?

[Mechaman]

Isn't it ironic that some of the people who just love to play the enlightened card almost always come out as the most shockingly bigoted people?

[All Along The Watchtower]

People of both parties are racist and classist, albeit for different reasons.

[mileslunn]

Using this silly logic, one could argue Romney would have no mandate to govern since he lost the African-American vote by close to 90%.  The reality is a vote is a vote and an American is an American.  It doesn't matter what demographic they fall under.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Well who cares about rural white men anyway?

Obama and the Democrats owe them nothing. They've done nothing for this country but stoke race and class resentment at home and serve as cannon fodder for unnecessary wars abroad. They hate minorities, gays, pretty much anyone who isn't like them.

Romney and the Republicans don't owe them anything either. Guys like Romney would just as soon replace them with robots. Or if you can't get a robot, get some little Chinaman to do the same job for a tenth the cost. Cap their SSI benefits. Make it impossible for them to afford to retire and next to impossible for their kids to go to college. They'll still vote for the "working man's" party (even if most of them are laid off).

And they'll go on living in their alternate reality where they think the rest of us are mooching off them and that they're always being cheated and put upon. They always point their pitchforks at the wrong people. Schoolteachers. Black single moms. Do they really think they're to blame for the fact that a high school education doesn't get you into the middle class anymore? They ought to pick on somebody their own size for a change. Like their fellow white men - the ones who laid them off, for example.

^This post is the embodiment of out of touch, arrogant, smug dickishness. Attitudes like yours are the main reason why more and more working-class white people are voting Republican, or at least, not voting Democratic (often not even voting, period). How can you have a Party of the People when the party leaders and activists mock, sneer at, or worse, actively endorse policies that all working people suffer from?

Hate to break it to you, buddy, but the Democratic Party's emphasis on "Third Way" policies of vague "social progressivism", combined with accommodation and deference to the Reaganite program on the most foundational economic issues, insure that the vast majority of Americans of all colors, creeds, sexual orientation, genders, ethnicities, and ages will have their standard of living decline.

Yeah, social issues are important, but they must be tied to economics at their core-otherwise, you will have growing inequality, a country of haves and have nots. But hey, if one half-black man can become President, and if gays can marry in a few states, and if the Fortune 400 includes a few more highly educated white women, and if your party pays lip service to "social justice" in its rhetoric, while taking the positions of 90s Republicans in practice-the right-wing neo-liberal economic policies are worth that trade-off, eh?

The point is, a lot of poor and working-class white people feel forgotten by the Democratic Party, and rightly so. Yeah, there's racism and cultural ignorance among segments of the population there, but you can just as easily say that for "educated"  middle and upper class white counterparts (who, I'd argue, are better at hiding their racism, not that they have less of it).  

So why pick on poor whites-in particular, poor rural whites? Because they vote Republican? Or maybe it's something else entirely; maybe their voting Republican is an indicator of the Democratic Party's abandonment of economic, bread-and-butter issues, in favor of a harsh "meritocracy" that a token number of non-whites would participate in, but would not fundamentally alter power relations.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Exactly. Republicans at least have enough of a simulacrum of respect for these groups to offer them wedge issues and cultural platitudes. Democrats who don't pursue some sort of actively ordoliberal (at least) program on bread-and-butter issues have nothing to offer them whatsoever, although Democrats who do can still win them depending on the circumstances (as we look likely to see in parts of the Midwest in two days, since even though Obama does have the tendencies that Progressive Realist is criticizing the way this campaign has been framed makes him more attractive on this basis than he would be otherwise, and Romney can't sell the cultural line as well as Bush or even McCain).

[King]

You don't need to kiss ass to these people.  They're not worth your pandering.  They are literally dying out.  They are either too old to reproduce or, like Mike Naso, too repulsive to reproduce.  Their beliefs will die with them.

The biggest problem with many of these men is that they just assume they are educated and intelligent.  On the whole, every Opinionated Book Skimmer I've ever met has been apart of the prestigious white middle class male demo.  

But I repeat:  They're dying out.  You don't need to figure out how to bring them into the fold.  Nonwhites and women have a lot more to prove when they seek an education and as a result they learn more on the whole.  Educated women also control the reproduction of the species.  Keep these more educated voters in your circle and forget about the rest. 

You can still help them with policies, but don't let them dictate to you what needs to be done because they don't hold any power anymore and they don't actually know anything anyway.

[Sasquatch]

Well who cares about rural white men anyway?

Obama and the Democrats owe them nothing. They've done nothing for this country but stoke race and class resentment at home and serve as cannon fodder for unnecessary wars abroad. They hate minorities, gays, pretty much anyone who isn't like them.

Romney and the Republicans don't owe them anything either. Guys like Romney would just as soon replace them with robots. Or if you can't get a robot, get some little Chinaman to do the same job for a tenth the cost. Cap their SSI benefits. Make it impossible for them to afford to retire and next to impossible for their kids to go to college. They'll still vote for the "working man's" party (even if most of them are laid off).

And they'll go on living in their alternate reality where they think the rest of us are mooching off them and that they're always being cheated and put upon. They always point their pitchforks at the wrong people. Schoolteachers. Black single moms. Do they really think they're to blame for the fact that a high school education doesn't get you into the middle class anymore? They ought to pick on somebody their own size for a change. Like their fellow white men - the ones who laid them off, for example.

This is a beautiful post.

I should clarify what I thought was beautiful about this post. It's the idea, that some in this country have, that just because your white you are inherently entitled to things. I was thinking more along the lines of the Tea Party/Pat Buchanan types who long for the 1950s and other demographics knew their place in society.

However, it raises a bigger issue. What about those white, non-college educated, mostly non-ideological, working class types who feel betrayed? They have every right to feel that way. If you were one of these people, I don't understand what the Democratic Party has to offer you. They don't have anything, but unlike Republicans, Democrats don't even attempt to appeal to these people.

Republicans use these people. Democrats ignore these people. People would rather have manipulative attention given to them rather than be ignored. I don't understand why Democrats are afraid to talk about class.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

You don't need to kiss ass to these people.  They're not worth your pandering.  They are literally dying out.  They are either too old to reproduce or, like Mike Naso, too repulsive to reproduce.  Their beliefs will die with them.

The biggest problem with many of these men is that they just assume they are educated and intelligent.  On the whole, every Opinionated Book Skimmer I've ever met has been apart of the prestigious white middle class male demo. 

But I repeat:  They're dying out.  You don't need to figure out how to bring them into the fold.  Nonwhites and women have a lot more to prove when they seek an education and as a result they learn more on the whole.  Educated women also control the reproduction of the species.  Keep these more educated voters in your circle and forget about the rest. 

You can still help them with policies, but don't let them dictate to you what needs to be done because they don't hold any power anymore and they don't actually know anything anyway.

Right on. These are people, whatever percentage of the country they are, who will vote Republican no matter what, who believe that they are victims, and that they are entitled to run the country and have all its advantages. . . It's not the Democrats job to convince these people - you'll never convince them to take responsibility to better themselves or care about anyone else.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

You don't need to kiss ass to these people.  They're not worth your pandering.  They are literally dying out.  They are either too old to reproduce or, like Mike Naso, too repulsive to reproduce.  Their beliefs will die with them.

The biggest problem with many of these men is that they just assume they are educated and intelligent.  On the whole, every Opinionated Book Skimmer I've ever met has been apart of the prestigious white middle class male demo. 

But I repeat:  They're dying out.  You don't need to figure out how to bring them into the fold.  Nonwhites and women have a lot more to prove when they seek an education and as a result they learn more on the whole.  Educated women also control the reproduction of the species.  Keep these more educated voters in your circle and forget about the rest. 

You can still help them with policies, but don't let them dictate to you what needs to be done because they don't hold any power anymore and they don't actually know anything anyway.

No, I understand this point, but helping the rural working class is important to me as an ancestral member of the rural working class. Whether the people being helped are white or not doesn't particularly register in my scale of value once rural and working class are established, but I'm white so I'm sure there's some unconscious or semi-conscious bias there somehow.

Nicely played, shua.

[Indy Texas]

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Betrayed about what? Please explain to me how these people have been betrayed (and by whom).

I guess what boggles my mind, living in and having grown up in a large, multicultural, polyglot city, is that while being low-income is certainly not easy or pleasant, it's not somehow harder to be a low-income white person than a low-income non-white. If anything, it ought to be slightly easier because low-income whites don't have to deal with the subconscious kinds of racism that are projected onto minority groups. (A blue-collar white guy can walk past a woman on the street without her instinctively grabbing hold of her purse; a black man will often face this. White people, rich or poor, never have to deal with being perceived as "foreign" or possibly "illegal" in the way that Hispanics and Asians do even if they were born in this country).

Yes, income inequality has widened over the past thirty years. Yes, wages for unskilled jobs have been depressed. But part of the reason the archetypal good ole boy could go from high school to the factory floor and support a stay-at-home wife and three kids on his salary is because the prevailing system denied blacks and immigrants and women the opportunities for those jobs. It's kind of hard to deny that the relative prosperity that working-class whites enjoyed in the mid-20th century was had at the expense of a minority underclass. In that sense, it was arguably "undeserved."

I live in a minority-majority city in a minority-majority state. And part of the reason there is such a flurry of activity here is that there are so many minorities and immigrants who, while relatively poor, are optimistic about their future and are trying to pursue opportunities as they come. They feel like after decades of discrimination, the playing field - while certainly not level - is more level than it has been before. I look at the underemployed white Joe the Plumbers of the hinterlands and it's hard for me not to view them as bitter that they can't tilt the playing field in their favor the way their fathers and grandfathers did.

[King]

You don't need to kiss ass to these people.  They're not worth your pandering.  They are literally dying out.  They are either too old to reproduce or, like Mike Naso, too repulsive to reproduce.  Their beliefs will die with them.

The biggest problem with many of these men is that they just assume they are educated and intelligent.  On the whole, every Opinionated Book Skimmer I've ever met has been apart of the prestigious white middle class male demo.  

But I repeat:  They're dying out.  You don't need to figure out how to bring them into the fold.  Nonwhites and women have a lot more to prove when they seek an education and as a result they learn more on the whole.  Educated women also control the reproduction of the species.  Keep these more educated voters in your circle and forget about the rest.  

You can still help them with policies, but don't let them dictate to you what needs to be done because they don't hold any power anymore and they don't actually know anything anyway.

No, I understand this point, but helping the rural working class is important to me as an ancestral member of the rural working class. Whether the people being helped are white or not doesn't particularly register in my scale of value once rural and working class are established, but I'm white so I'm sure there's some unconscious or semi-conscious bias there somehow.

Nicely played, shua.

As I said, the policies should be to help them, but the politics shouldn't pander to them.  You don't need them to win, ignore them, and prove you are right.  

Take some of our fellow forumites like nhmagic, a white male, who thinks the world is going to collapse into chaos over the next four years and will probably be seen building an underground apocalypse shelter once Obama hits 270 on Tuesday night.  There is no populist message you can drum up to get this man to believe otherwise.  There is one thing you can do: win this election without his vote, leave in 2016 with 4% unemployment and a world that isn't post-apocalyptic, TAKE CREDIT FOR IT, and maybe then people like him will realize that liberal Democrats aren't evil.  

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Take some of our fellow forumites like nhmagic, a white male, who thinks the world is going to collapse into chaos over the next four years and will probably be seen building an underground apocalypse shelter once Obama hits 270 on Tuesday night.  There is no populist message you can drum up to get this man to believe otherwise.  There is one thing you can do: win this election without his vote, leave in 2016 with 4% unemployment and a world that isn't post-apocalyptic, TAKE CREDIT FOR IT, and maybe then people like him will realize that liberal Democrats aren't evil.  

That's the plan. Fingers crossed.

[Sbane]

If you think Obama is a Muslim, a terrorist or any other assortment of nasty opinions the white uneducated class holds, then you are an idiot who's opinion should not matter. If you find it to be classist, that is fine with me, but the truth remains the these people are incapable of thinking logically and should not be taken seriously.

[Sbane]

Isn't it ironic that some of the people who just love to play the enlightened card almost always come out as the most shockingly bigoted people?

Don't you live in Oklahoma? Then you should know exactly the type of people who come across as the most "shockingly bigoted". You know, the type of people who will go up to black people in service jobs and tell them Obama is a Muslim and that all blacks will riot if he doesn't win, just to get a rise out of them and then complain and get them fired. That is pretty shockingly bigoted. Please spare me the faux outrage about classism in this thread. Let's deal with something real out there, racism.

[Sbane]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Betrayed about what? Please explain to me how these people have been betrayed (and by whom).

I guess what boggles my mind, living in and having grown up in a large, multicultural, polyglot city, is that while being low-income is certainly not easy or pleasant, it's not somehow harder to be a low-income white person than a low-income non-white. If anything, it ought to be slightly easier because low-income whites don't have to deal with the subconscious kinds of racism that are projected onto minority groups. (A blue-collar white guy can walk past a woman on the street without her instinctively grabbing hold of her purse; a black man will often face this. White people, rich or poor, never have to deal with being perceived as "foreign" or possibly "illegal" in the way that Hispanics and Asians do even if they were born in this country).

Yes, income inequality has widened over the past thirty years. Yes, wages for unskilled jobs have been depressed. But part of the reason the archetypal good ole boy could go from high school to the factory floor and support a stay-at-home wife and three kids on his salary is because the prevailing system denied blacks and immigrants and women the opportunities for those jobs. It's kind of hard to deny that the relative prosperity that working-class whites enjoyed in the mid-20th century was had at the expense of a minority underclass. In that sense, it was arguably "undeserved."

I live in a minority-majority city in a minority-majority state. And part of the reason there is such a flurry of activity here is that there are so many minorities and immigrants who, while relatively poor, are optimistic about their future and are trying to pursue opportunities as they come. They feel like after decades of discrimination, the playing field - while certainly not level - is more level than it has been before. I look at the underemployed white Joe the Plumbers of the hinterlands and it's hard for me not to view them as bitter that they can't tilt the playing field in their favor the way their fathers and grandfathers did.

Excellent post.

[opebo]

The attitude you "leftists" have towards the misguided class is sickening.

I agree completely - these people are mostly victims, to be pitied rather than censured.

And the 95% of blacks voting for Obama gets little attention... this is not racism lad

Black's  voting is self-defense, the white's is racism.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Can we please keep the classist undertones to a minimum, guys?

They don't even realise that they're doing it. Which is about half the problem.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

but don't let them dictate to you what needs to be done because they don't hold any power anymore

Who are 'they', exactly? Because if it's 'white men' then, actually, they most certainly do hold most of the power in your country (mine too. Globally as well. Very much so), but if you mean working class whites or rural whites - and people should note that these two things are not the same thing - then I think you'll find that they never had it...

[Mechaman]

Isn't it ironic that some of the people who just love to play the enlightened card almost always come out as the most shockingly bigoted people?

Don't you live in Oklahoma? Then you should know exactly the type of people who come across as the most "shockingly bigoted". You know, the type of people who will go up to black people in service jobs and tell them Obama is a Muslim and that all blacks will riot if he doesn't win, just to get a rise out of them and then complain and get them fired. That is pretty shockingly bigoted. Please spare me the faux outrage about classism in this thread. Let's deal with something real out there, racism.

Oh yes nice way to avoid my points by pointing out where I live.
Yes, there is bigotry here like the Sharia Law ban that was passed a couple of years ago.  Sure, there are people who believe that Obama is a Muslim and I bet there are even people who think the black will riot if he wins (in the countryside anyways).  That still doesn't take away from my original point that a lot of you guys are hypocritical BIGOTS whose views, once properly spelled out, are quite shocking.  The views of a number of Oklamans isn't that shocking, frankly, because I never hear any of them raising the pretend card of enlightenment while they are making the claims they do.  You, and other two-faced "progressives", do it on an almost daily basis on here and you guys have been lucky that until now no one has called you out on it.
Well, that time is over.  And good riddance too.
I never seen such people in all my years, who preach tolerance while out of their mouths they say the most intolerant spiel about whole demographics.  Since you brought up Oklahoma and you think we are all bigots, I should point out that some of the damn best people I've ever known are Oklahomans.  People who don't harbor ill-feelings for every non-white non-christian person they meet.  People who have gay friends.  People who are gay.  People who, well you get the point.
But of course, to some people on here, who prefer the position of sitting in their little corners of America (or wherever else), in their little so-called zones of Enlightenment, it doesn't matter.  Instead, they prefer to bring out the very stereotypasaurus that they oft accuse the people they criticize for using on "unwanteds".  They prefer to sit in their little corners and judge, instead of giving a damn.  To me that's beyond pathetic.  If counselors took the same approach to alcoholism and drug addiction that some of the so-called "progressives" take towards the white male working class, our society would be in a shitty shape.  Needless to say, AA would stand for something else besides "Alcoholics Anonymous".
So no, let's not divert the conversation.  You guys like to pontificate, but not act, on your words.  It's about time the rest of us held you accountable.

PS: the idea that white working class is incapable of thinking logically reeks of the very thing you rally against, racism.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Betrayed about what? Please explain to me how these people have been betrayed (and by whom).

The economic and social policies of Democratic Party after the election of Bill Clinton, supposedly one of them. The language of betrayal generally isn't helpful for anything other than starting a metaphorical (or actual) fight, but it does have a certain truth to it in this case.

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Which I suppose immediately demonstrates your moral superiority.

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Actually the main reason for the decline in working class living standards is the same in the U.S as in most other Western countries: namely deindustrialisation and neoliberal economic dogma. If you can't see this, then you aren't worth talking to.

It's interesting, however, that the word 'undeserved' comes up here. Most posters here are spoilt brats from bourgeois backgrounds who have lived charmed lives and don't even realise that this is so. They will progress from their comfortable suburban backgrounds to university and then to generally well-paid careers. Surely all of this, given the social structure of the United States, is quite 'undeserved' as well? Because it surely must come at the 'expense' of someone else...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Please spare me the faux outrage about classism in this thread. Let's deal with something real out there, racism.

The correlation between Tennessee avatars and braindeath is a curiously strong one.

[Sbane]

Isn't it ironic that some of the people who just love to play the enlightened card almost always come out as the most shockingly bigoted people?

Don't you live in Oklahoma? Then you should know exactly the type of people who come across as the most "shockingly bigoted". You know, the type of people who will go up to black people in service jobs and tell them Obama is a Muslim and that all blacks will riot if he doesn't win, just to get a rise out of them and then complain and get them fired. That is pretty shockingly bigoted. Please spare me the faux outrage about classism in this thread. Let's deal with something real out there, racism.

Oh yes nice way to avoid my points by pointing out where I live.
Yes, there is bigotry here like the Sharia Law ban that was passed a couple of years ago.  Sure, there are people who believe that Obama is a Muslim and I bet there are even people who think the black will riot if he wins (in the countryside anyways).  That still doesn't take away from my original point that a lot of you guys are hypocritical BIGOTS whose views, once properly spelled out, are quite shocking.  The views of a number of Oklamans isn't that shocking, frankly, because I never hear any of them raising the pretend card of enlightenment while they are making the claims they do.  You, and other two-faced "progressives", do it on an almost daily basis on here and you guys have been lucky that until now no one has called you out on it.
Well, that time is over.  And good riddance too.
I never seen such people in all my years, who preach tolerance while out of their mouths they say the most intolerant spiel about whole demographics.  Since you brought up Oklahoma and you think we are all bigots, I should point out that some of the damn best people I've ever known are Oklahomans.  People who don't harbor ill-feelings for every non-white non-christian person they meet.  People who have gay friends.  People who are gay.  People who, well you get the point.
But of course, to some people on here, who prefer the position of sitting in their little corners of America (or wherever else), in their little so-called zones of Enlightenment, it doesn't matter.  Instead, they prefer to bring out the very stereotypasaurus that they oft accuse the people they criticize for using on "unwanteds".  They prefer to sit in their little corners and judge, instead of giving a damn.  To me that's beyond pathetic.  If counselors took the same approach to alcoholism and drug addiction that some of the so-called "progressives" take towards the white male working class, our society would be in a shitty shape.  Needless to say, AA would stand for something else besides "Alcoholics Anonymous".
So no, let's not divert the conversation.  You guys like to pontificate, but not act, on your words.  It's about time the rest of us held you accountable.

PS: the idea that white working class is incapable of thinking logically reeks of the very thing you rally against, racism.

I don't see how you took my post as being directed towards all of Oklahoma. I live in Tennessee, and I have seen overt racism (which you do not see in California, but it exists), but I have also seen that most people are decent. Still, this does not mean that the views of those bigots should be taken seriously. They blame their problems on others instead of taking personal responsibility...and at the same time accuse others of doing the same.

I am not stereotyping anyone, and you better not accuse me of that again. Racists are racists are racists. It's as simple as that. There is more of it in the south, and it is certainly more overt. Those are also facts. It is also a fact that most people in the south are not racist. When I go off on racist people, I am only talking about those people. In the north they tend to be well hidden, in the south you see them speaking more truthfully, which is why I brought up your state. But yeah, thanks for showing your insecurity about your state.

I frankly don't care to "understand" why they think Obama is a muslim or a terrorist. They need to be ignored by the rest of the populace as far as I am concerned. Does that come off as bigoted to you? If it does, I frankly don't care. But if you think I am stereotyping whole states, you don't know what the hell you are talking about. I voluntarily moved to Tennessee from California, you moron. And I do not regret it at all.

[Sbane]

Please spare me the faux outrage about classism in this thread. Let's deal with something real out there, racism.

The correlation between Tennessee avatars and braindeath is a curiously strong one.

It is not classist to point out that overt racists come from a certain background. Not to say racism doesn't exist in the upper classes, but of course that is more or less classism. The bigotry of SOME working class whites is of a different quality.

Oh, and thanks for upholding your reputation of being the biggest douche on this forum.