Ancestry and political attitudes
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 29, 2024, 10:07:15 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  Political Geography & Demographics (Moderators: muon2, 15 Down, 35 To Go)
  Ancestry and political attitudes
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2
Author Topic: Ancestry and political attitudes  (Read 4949 times)
All Along The Watchtower
Progressive Realist
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,426
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: December 19, 2012, 01:04:25 PM »

How much influence does an American region or locality's ancestral makeup (past or present) have on the political attitudes, beliefs, and tendencies of the residents, or the political culture of said region?

For example, the Upper Midwestern states of Minnesota, Wisconsin, North Dakota, etc. have a lot of Scandinavian and German ancestry. Surely that has influenced the rather peculiar political culture in that region?
Logged
Vosem
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,625
United States


Political Matrix
E: 8.13, S: -6.09

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2012, 06:23:00 PM »

I'm descended from CPSU members...

...that later joined the Republican Party.
Logged
angus
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,423
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2012, 07:33:38 PM »

How much influence does an American region or locality's ancestral makeup (past or present) have on the political attitudes, beliefs, and tendencies of the residents, or the political culture of said region?

For example, the Upper Midwestern states of Minnesota, Wisconsin, North Dakota, etc. have a lot of Scandinavian and German ancestry. Surely that has influenced the rather peculiar political culture in that region?

Very little.  For example, you could say that Cubanos like the GOP because of their unwavering intolerance of the Castro regime, but you'd have a hard time explaining the fact that Obama won over 48% of that voting bloc this year.  Better yet, you could say that Orthodox Jews are one of the most reliably Republican voting blocs on the planet, and you could blame it on the unwavering support of Israel by the GOP, but you'd befuddle yourself trying to come up with a reason the 72% of nominal Jews who aren't orthodox (but who are generally more supportive of Israel's foreign policies than the general public) voting reliably for Democrats.

Guatemaltecos?  Haitiens?  They're mostly poor, so they like whoever is more socialist.  Right now we don't have any one fitting that description, but Democrats come closer than Republicans.

Indians?  They have a long history of the caste, so you might automatically assume that they like Republicans better than they like Democrats, and to be sure they preferred Bush over Gore in 2000.  But in 2012 3/4 of them preferred Obama over Romney.

I think that all you can really say is that Romney comes across as a cross between Daddy Warbucks and Darth Vader, and not in a good way.  Moreover, this perception seems to have crossed ethnic boundaries.  For example, I'm the only guy on my block who will admit to having voted for Mitt Romney, and I live on a fairly diverse block.   Smiley

Logged
Indy Texas
independentTX
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,258
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.52, S: -3.48

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2012, 12:18:49 AM »

Indians?  They have a long history of the caste, so you might automatically assume that they like Republicans better than they like Democrats, and to be sure they preferred Bush over Gore in 2000.  But in 2012 3/4 of them preferred Obama over Romney.

That sounds like the sort of logic Republicans would use in trying to appeal to Indian-Americans.
Logged
Person Man
Angry_Weasel
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 36,681
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2012, 03:38:42 PM »

Indians?  They have a long history of the caste, so you might automatically assume that they like Republicans better than they like Democrats, and to be sure they preferred Bush over Gore in 2000.  But in 2012 3/4 of them preferred Obama over Romney.

That sounds like the sort of logic Republicans would use in trying to appeal to Indian-Americans.

I just thought that a lot of Indians voted GOP because they don't like Muslims. Most Indians I know are pretty obnoxious latte-types but are very hawkish. Basically, they are neocons a way that a lot of people say that Jews/Israelis are.
Logged
ilikeverin
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 16,410
Timor-Leste


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2012, 05:15:00 PM »

Only insofar as it influenced the culture of a locality in terms of kind of a "memetic founder effect".  I don't have a drop of Scandinavian blood (that I know of), but I turned out like a "Scandinavian-acting" Minnesotan regardless, because it's where I grew up.
Logged
Benj
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 979


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2012, 01:30:43 PM »

Indians?  They have a long history of the caste, so you might automatically assume that they like Republicans better than they like Democrats, and to be sure they preferred Bush over Gore in 2000.  But in 2012 3/4 of them preferred Obama over Romney.

That sounds like the sort of logic Republicans would use in trying to appeal to Indian-Americans.

I just thought that a lot of Indians voted GOP because they don't like Muslims. Most Indians I know are pretty obnoxious latte-types but are very hawkish. Basically, they are neocons a way that a lot of people say that Jews/Israelis are.

This logic doesn't hold up at all. Muslim-hating was only a significant political force after 9/11, by which point Indians were voting strongly Democratic. They voted more Republican in the 1990s because they were wealthy, and especially because the sort of Indians who immigrate to the US are typically upper-caste, high-status, high-education Indians who saw the Republican Party as the local incarnation of the BJP. But that was blown to smithereens by Republican nativism after 9/11.
Logged
Person Man
Angry_Weasel
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 36,681
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2012, 02:01:00 PM »

No, the Indians in India are pretty anti-Muslim. They are called "Mazis" by many Indians and there are perhaps those who would vote BJP back home but once they are naturalized here, they are pretty loyal Democrats.
Logged
Benj
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 979


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2012, 05:53:51 PM »

No, the Indians in India are pretty anti-Muslim. They are called "Mazis" by many Indians and there are perhaps those who would vote BJP back home but once they are naturalized here, they are pretty loyal Democrats.

I meant in the US. The Republicans were neither identifiably more anti-Muslim nor identifiably more pro-Israel before 9/11 than the Democrats. (In fact, the Democrats were often perceived as more pro-Israel, and they nominated a Jew for VP in 2000.)
Logged
old timey villain
cope1989
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,741


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2012, 09:32:20 PM »

"American" ancestry (as previously listed on the census) strongly correlates with being conservative and voting Republican. Although it might have more to do with the fact that most people who identify with this ancestry are white southerners. Anybody know what that ancestry really means??
Logged
Indy Texas
independentTX
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,258
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.52, S: -3.48

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2012, 10:57:29 PM »

"American" ancestry (as previously listed on the census) strongly correlates with being conservative and voting Republican. Although it might have more to do with the fact that most people who identify with this ancestry are white southerners. Anybody know what that ancestry really means??

I think it's generally assumed that the people who list "American" tend to be whites of Scots-Irish ancestry whose ancestors have lived in America so long (i.e. pre-Revolutionary War) that they don't really view themselves as having a connection to anywhere else.
Logged
LastVoter
seatown
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,322
Thailand


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2012, 02:18:35 AM »

I'm descended from CPSU members...

...that later joined the Republican Party.
The opposite would be more ridiculous.
Logged
Oldiesfreak1854
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,674
United States


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2012, 10:59:06 AM »

Dutch-Americans are some of the most heavily Republican of any ancestry, aside from Cuban-Americans.  This is evidenced by election results in much of West Michigan, especially Ottawa county.  My hometown is predominantly German Lutheran, and very big on family values, but has always seemd to lean Republican from the historical models I've seen.  In a good election for the GOP (which doesn't necessarily mean winning, but it could be a close race), it usually votes about 70-80% for the Republican candidate.  Interestingly, it probably would have leaned Dem in the years leading up to the Civil War if what I've read about the history of the two parties is true.  Until about 1912, German-Americans' votes were typically split by religion, with Catholics predominantly Democrat, Jews predominantly Republican, and Protestants about even.  And as for Jews, I believe that Republicans today are probably more pro-Israel and less anti-Semitic than Democrats.
Personally, I have a little German ancestry (in the form of Pennsylvania Dutch).  But for the most part, my ancestry is about half Scottish and half Irish, and I, of course, am a Republican.  I don't think that really says much about how my ancestry votes or is aligned politically, but it's how I feel.
Logged
soniquemd21921
Rookie
**
Posts: 137
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2012, 07:37:12 PM »

I'm pretty sure that New Englanders of Yankee ancestry were the most Republican ethnic voting bloc in the party's first century. When you consider that many New England towns that were in the 70 to 80 percent GOP range in the 40's and 50's had sizeable Catholic populations, Yankee support for Republicans may have easily approached - or even surpassed - 90 percent.
Logged
Oldiesfreak1854
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,674
United States


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2012, 08:10:21 PM »

I'm pretty sure that New Englanders of Yankee ancestry were the most Republican ethnic voting bloc in the party's first century. When you consider that many New England towns that were in the 70 to 80 percent GOP range in the 40's and 50's had sizeable Catholic populations, Yankee support for Republicans may have easily approached - or even surpassed - 90 percent.
*Sigh* if only it still did. Sad
Logged
HAnnA MArin County
semocrat08
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,037
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2012, 03:58:43 AM »

I've wondered about this for a long time as well. The area in which I live in Southeast Missouri is predominantly of German American heritage. In my county alone, there is a tiny community of Dutch-German Catholics and this is one of the most staunchly Republican precincts in the county. The "town's" baseball field is littered in pro-life banners.

Osage County, Missouri is also strongly Republican and heavily of German American lineage; in fact, I think they even have some of their street signs in Germanic names. This is a part of the state that is included in the Missouri Rhineland.
Logged
Oldiesfreak1854
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,674
United States


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2012, 08:38:28 AM »

I've wondered about this for a long time as well. The area in which I live in Southeast Missouri is predominantly of German American heritage. In my county alone, there is a tiny community of Dutch-German Catholics and this is one of the most staunchly Republican precincts in the county. The "town's" baseball field is littered in pro-life banners.

Osage County, Missouri is also strongly Republican and heavily of German American lineage; in fact, I think they even have some of their street signs in Germanic names. This is a part of the state that is included in the Missouri Rhineland.
That sounds a lot like my hometown.
Logged
Indy Texas
independentTX
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,258
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.52, S: -3.48

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2013, 03:09:47 PM »

I've wondered about this for a long time as well. The area in which I live in Southeast Missouri is predominantly of German American heritage. In my county alone, there is a tiny community of Dutch-German Catholics and this is one of the most staunchly Republican precincts in the county. The "town's" baseball field is littered in pro-life banners.

Osage County, Missouri is also strongly Republican and heavily of German American lineage; in fact, I think they even have some of their street signs in Germanic names. This is a part of the state that is included in the Missouri Rhineland.

My mom's side of the family has roots in SE Missouri. They were of Swiss/German Protestant origin. But my maternal grandmother's family were liberal Republicans (pro-New Deal and, later, pro-ERA and pro-civil rights). I don't know how unusual that was.
Logged
Oldiesfreak1854
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,674
United States


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2013, 08:48:48 PM »

I've wondered about this for a long time as well. The area in which I live in Southeast Missouri is predominantly of German American heritage. In my county alone, there is a tiny community of Dutch-German Catholics and this is one of the most staunchly Republican precincts in the county. The "town's" baseball field is littered in pro-life banners.

Osage County, Missouri is also strongly Republican and heavily of German American lineage; in fact, I think they even have some of their street signs in Germanic names. This is a part of the state that is included in the Missouri Rhineland.

My mom's side of the family has roots in SE Missouri. They were of Swiss/German Protestant origin. But my maternal grandmother's family were liberal Republicans (pro-New Deal and, later, pro-ERA and pro-civil rights). I don't know how unusual that was.
I have a feeling that was pretty common.
Logged
RBH
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,210


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2013, 09:34:15 PM »

I've wondered about this for a long time as well. The area in which I live in Southeast Missouri is predominantly of German American heritage. In my county alone, there is a tiny community of Dutch-German Catholics and this is one of the most staunchly Republican precincts in the county. The "town's" baseball field is littered in pro-life banners.

Osage County, Missouri is also strongly Republican and heavily of German American lineage; in fact, I think they even have some of their street signs in Germanic names. This is a part of the state that is included in the Missouri Rhineland.

Osage County wasn't swept by Republicans this year, they voted for Koster for AG.

And Osage County was one of the few non-confederate counties to vote for Kennedy and Goldwater, also mainly due to German Catholics.

So your area would be Perry County, or somewhere in the vicinity?
Logged
Hash
Hashemite
Moderators
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 32,403
Colombia


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2013, 10:07:01 PM »

Isn't Gasconade County, MO the county of reference for solidly Republican German counties? It was the only county in MO (besides St. Louis iirc) to vote for Lincoln in 1860 iirc.
Logged
RBH
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,210


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2013, 10:29:09 PM »

Isn't Gasconade County, MO the county of reference for solidly Republican German counties? It was the only county in MO (besides St. Louis iirc) to vote for Lincoln in 1860 iirc.

Yes, although Gasconade is more German Protestant than German Catholic
Logged
Franknburger
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,401
Germany


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2013, 11:50:52 PM »

As to German ancestry (that is the only one I really dare to say something about), it night help to keep several things in mind:

1. Unlike in the UK and Sweden, where protestantism was decreed by royal order (Henry VIII, Gustav Wasa), German and Swiss protestants had to fight a 30 year war for their right for religious self-determination (and more indpendence from Emperor and Pope). The Dutch fight even lasted eighty years. That has surely instilled a 'republican' attitude (meant first of all in a non-partisan sense, i.e. covering issues like civil liberties, self-determination and -organisation, anti-authoritarism etc.) into the collective memory. On top of that, of course, you get Weber's famous 'protestant ethics' ('don't wait for god to decide your faith and reward you after death, take matters into your own hands, and god will prove his favour already while you are still on this earth'). Last but not least, with Catholic structures, especially Monastries, destroyed, the former's educational, social and charitable tasks had to be taken over by local governments & communities, bringing forward a different understanding of social responsibility, and the role of government.

2. Many, although by no means all protestant German immigrans into the USA had a middle-class background.  For once, virtual all Free Imperial Cities (self-ruled cities not subjunct to any Count, Duke or Bishop, but only to the Emperor) were predominantly protestant (often with a sizeable Jewish minority). Such Free Cities included many major cities such as Hamburg, Lübeck, Bremen, Magdeburg, Dortmund, Frankfurt/Main, Nuremberg, Strassburg, or Augsburg,  but also a lot of smaller towns especially in South-Western Germany (plus Alsace). There were a few catholic Free Cities (most notably Cologne and Aachen),  as well as several larger residential cities (Protestant: Hannover, Berlin, Brunswick, Kassel - Catholic: Munich, Stuttgart, - nominally Catholic but de-facto protestant: Dresden),  but essentially, I would estimate those who immigrated to the USA before the Industrial revolution  from German cities to be at least 75% protestant, maybe 15% Catholic and the remainder Jewish. I probably don't have to go into detail what urban background, and exposure to local self-government means in terms of political attitude.

3. While not fully congruent, the Catholic-Protestant border drawn after the War of Thirty Years in North-Western Germany roughly coincides with the border between traditional Roman and traditional Saxon inheritance laws. Under Saxon law, an agricultural estate (farm) is passed on to the oldest child (irrespectively of its gender), which in turn has to take care of the parents for their old age. The younger childs are compensated in kind (cattle) or cash, albeit at a reduced rate to make up for the eldest taking care of the parents. This has preserved a structure of comparatively large, wealthy farms in North-Western Germany, but at the same time fostered an emigration culture of the later-born, which was one of the driving forces behind the mideaval German Eastern Colonisation (e.g. West & East Prossia), Germans settling in Russia on the call of Catherine the Great, and, of course, immigration into the US. What we are talking about here are young people with strong agricultural (entrepreneurial) background, reasonably well-being and -educated (for their rural background), equipped with some start capital from their inheritance compensation, and aware of a century-old emigration tradition. I don't have any statistial data at hand, but anecdotal evidence leads me to guess that many of them ended up as dairy farmers in Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin or the Dakotas (and quite a number saw their children continuing the migration tradition along the Oregon Trail). Oh- and before I forget - Saxon law was also about common land property (Almende'), and free access to forests for hunting (as it still exists in Sweden). After arriving in the USA, these people probably had little problem to self-identify themselves as WASP, and go with the (progressive wing of the) Republican party.

4. Things get a bit more complicated if you move further East (Mecklenburg, Pomerania, Brandenburg, East & West Prussia) - you could still find some of these medium-scale, free farmers there, but mostly the land was controlled by local low nobility, with the majority of the the rural population (a mix of germanised Slavonics and failed German colonists) subjunct to serfdom. On the other hand, the Prussian Kings attracted quite a number of Huguenots (french protestants) to the area - urban, well-educated, renowned for their handicraft skills; while the a good part of the Baltic coast was for most of the 17th and 18th century under Swedish control. So, a German Protestant from North-Eastern Germany may have been anything of the above, and you will really have to dig  deep into an individual setllement's / family history to find a connection between ancestry and political attitudes.

5. In contrast to Saxon inheritance law, under Roman law estates are equally split among all, or at least all male, children. Thus, in (predominantly Catholic) South-Western and South Germany, average farm sizes tended to get pretty small over the course of a few generations (unless there were major wars or epidemics to 'control' population growth). The rural population, while (as land owners) having less incentives for emigration, was forced to search for additional income sources outside agriculture, making them more industrous [The different terrain, more mountaineaous, i.e. better energy supply (wood, charcoal, water power) in comparison to Northern Germany, facilitated at the same time the development of pre-industrial processing activities}.  Thus, a typical Catholic German pre-WWI US immigrant would be much more likely than his Protestant counterpart to emigrate in order to escape poverty, arriving with hardly anything but his skills in the USA, and these skills might be more in blacksmithing or wheelwrighting than in agriculture. He would often also be less formally educated than a Protestant immigrant, maybe having undergone only some four years of church school training. In other words, he would be rather working-class than middle-class, and as such quite likely to be a staunch democrat (until when? Wilson entering WWI against Germany? Hoover/ Eisenhower, American Germans both becoming US Presidents on a Republican ticket? Post-Kennedy / Civil Rights party realignment in the US?).
 
6. Last but not least, there is the post WW-II "I married an american soldier" German immigration (2 friends of my parents, 1 friend of my parents-in-law), which, as I have been told, is not just an issue of the late 1940s, but has continued at least until the 1970s, as Army officers that had erved in Korea or Vietnam got to choose their foreign posts, and usually opted for Germany. Now, while there is probably little doubt about how retired US Army officers vote, their German-born wifes' vote may be more swingy ...

Don't know if this helped ..
Logged
Ban my account ffs!
snowguy716
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 22,632
Austria


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2013, 03:56:42 AM »

Only insofar as it influenced the culture of a locality in terms of kind of a "memetic founder effect".  I don't have a drop of Scandinavian blood (that I know of), but I turned out like a "Scandinavian-acting" Minnesotan regardless, because it's where I grew up.
This is indeed the case as German is the single largest heritage in MN.. and yet the country most closely linked with the state is Norway.  Of course the Germans were never as political, and that became even more pronounced after WWI.

My grandma's elderly neighbors growing up were Germans.. and they were looked down upon, especially during WWII.  But he and my great-grandfather were friends as they were both ardent gardeners and were neurotic about keeping an impeccable yard/lawn.  My grandma's family was mostly Norwegian with some English... so judgment was best passed on the toilet where it could quickly be flushed.
Logged
soniquemd21921
Rookie
**
Posts: 137
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2013, 07:23:59 AM »
« Edited: January 02, 2013, 07:33:12 AM by soniquemd21921 »

Looking at past election results, it appears that German Catholics started voting Republican long before other Catholic groups did, and were not as lopsidedly Democratic as other Catholics were (like in New England, where Catholic support for Democrats was in the 80-90 percent range). JFK's percentage of the vote in German Catholic counties was below Al Smith's percentage in those counties (Stearns, Minnesota was 71% Smith but 58% Kennedy, for example).

Was Osage the only non-southern county that voted for JFK and then voted for Goldwater?
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.061 seconds with 13 queries.