SENATE BILL: Freedom to Eat Act (VETOED, SPONSOR NEEDED)

[Napoleon]

Fascinating. How do they relate to the bill?

The bill was about dogs. Isn't that obvious?

Not to him, apparently; it's unfortunate for the good people of the Northeast region.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I oppose this bill, but it doesn't do much good, since I'll be out of the Senate in a day.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

I apologize for not contributing more, but I just instinctively find it so obvious why this bill should pass. It's hard to put into words. The practice of eating dog constitutes a cultural tradition for many Atlasians. Why should we outlaw this tradition and elevate the dog to special status while so many other animals remain free-for-the-picking? As far as I am aware, we have not outlawed, say, the consumption of guinea pig meat, which happens to also involve the slaughter of beloved household pets. And rightfully so: Guinea pig is a source of protein in many traditional South American diets.

It's not fair to endorse some cultures and outlaw others. Moreover, we can't sit on some throne and dictate which mammals are more worthy of survival than others. There is no fair criteria; whatever we come up with would innevitably and unjustifiably be eurocentric. So we either ban the consumption of all meat, or permit the consumption of all meat. The former is unrealistic and intrusive. The latter is logical and unrestrictive.

If we're in the business of regulating what people eat, it should be based on food safety, not on some skewed sense of morality.

[bgwah]

The practice of eating dog constitutes a cultural tradition for many Atlasians.

I seriously doubt that. Do you have any examples?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

That has already been addressed. I would recommend reading the thread.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

This isn't South America.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

So should we ban women from driving to appease immigrants from Saudi Arabia? Should we execute all homosexuals to respect the culture of Uganda?

[HagridOfTheDeep]

The practice of eating dog constitutes a cultural tradition for many Atlasians.

I seriously doubt that. Do you have any examples?

Not really. We're operating in a fictional country. Even so, I imagine we've so stigmatized the consumption of dog that it'd be hard to admit to eating canine meat if someone came knocking at the door. Still, as Nix demonstrated, it does hold a place in at least one country's tradition. Since we're a nation that encourages immigration, it's not absurd to suggest that some folks ascribing to that tradition have established a home in Atlasia.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

That has already been addressed. I would recommend reading the thread.[/quote]

I have read the thread, but I appreciate your concern. You and Napoleon must've attended the same etiquette classes.

Despite being previously addressed in debate, I've yet to hear a satisfactory response. Instead, I've seen dodges and insults. That's why I'm restating the point.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

This isn't South America.[/quote]

I'm not talking about the diet of South America—continents don't eat. I'm talking about the diet of South Americans, a number of whom move to Atlasia because of the freedoms we offer. Why outlaw a practice that hurts no one?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

So should we ban women from driving to appease immigrants from Saudi Arabia? Should we execute all homosexuals to respect the culture of Uganda?
[/quote]

Of course not. I made a generalized statement that didn't exactly convey what I meant, so I apologize. The traditions you mention are intrusive. Catering to them would in return stifle other people's freedom. But when it comes to practices that don't hurt anyone, we should not preference one group's culture over another's. Whether or not my neighbour is allowed to eat dog has no bearing on how my sister lives her life. Whether or not women are allowed to drive would.

[Niemeyerite]

I'll never vote "Yes" on a dog Holocaust. It may not be logical, but yes, I believe they are just below our moral status. People can live without eating dogs, seriously. When you go to Egypt, Morocco, Lybia... You can't eat pig, because the majority of people there thinks it's not moral. When you go to China, you can't eat rabbits... I don't thinks there's anything wrong about doing the same thing to protect our beloved friends here in Atlasia.

And yes, they're too cute to be eaten.

[Napoleon]

The practice of eating dog constitutes a cultural tradition for many Atlasians.

The practice of eating human constitutes a cultural tradition for many creepy Atlasians. So what?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Dogs were elevated to special status centuries ago, and the eating of them was already outlawed too. Perhaps you didn't notice?

I'm just as willing to give guinea pig meat a similar status.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Some cultures stone women to death. I guess its not fair to "outlaw" that.

[Franzl]

I find it rather absurd to put dogs on the same level as human beings, no matter how much we may love them.

And nothing will change for dog owners. It's not like hungry dog-eaters are going to start going through neighborhoods to round up their next meals.

[Niemeyerite]

I find it rather absurd to put dogs on the same level as human beings, no matter how much we may love them.

And nothing will change for dog owners. It's not like hungry dog-eaters are going to start going through neighborhoods to round up their next meals.

No. Eating dead women doesn't mean your girlfriends will be killed and then eaten, either.

We agree we are not on the same level, but, in my opinion, there are 3 levels:

1. Humans.


2. Dogs.


(cats could be here)






3. Other animals.

[Franzl]

This is akin to supporting legalized alcohol while still demanding that marijuana remain illegal.

Either we allow animal meat to be consumed, or we don't. (Public health reasons and such as exceptions for certain regulations and/or bans.)

[bgwah]

The legislation doesn't even ban eating canine meat. It bans the commercial sale, production, and purchase of it.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

I remember this bill! I supported it because it didn't ban eating dogs, just the taboo of marketing and selling it in the marketplace. Of course, one could argue if we do that then no one will eat it...

[Napoleon]

The legislation doesn't even ban eating canine meat. It bans the commercial sale, production, and purchase of it.

Reading is a lot of trouble bgwah.

[Niemeyerite]

Restoring the right of Atlasian citizens to make their own dietary choices means we can eat humans, too?

[Oakvale]

Restoring the right of Atlasian citizens to make their own dietary choices means we can eat humans, too?

Well, no. There's obviously no real moral justification for killing and eating animals, but unless you want to make Atlasia a vegetarian state I don't see why we should draw distinctions between different animal species out of a mix of cultural nationalism and sentimentality. I probably wouldn't eat a dog, no, but is it much worse than eating, say, a cute little pig?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Fascinating. How do they relate to the bill?

For some reasons this post reminded me of an exhange between Peter Sellers and Orson Welles in the 1968 Casino Royale movie.

But I guess that doesn't bode to well for either you or Bgwah here, does it?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I remember this bill! I supported it because it didn't ban eating dogs, just the taboo of marketing and selling it in the marketplace. Of course, one could argue if we do that then no one will eat it...

I remember it as well, but more for the annoying procedural delays on simple matters that waisted so much time, rather than anything else.

[Napoleon]

Restoring the right of Atlasian citizens to make their own dietary choices means we can eat humans, too?

Well, no. There's obviously no real moral justification for killing and eating animals, but unless you want to make Atlasia a vegetarian state I don't see why we should draw distinctions between different animal species out of a mix of cultural nationalism and sentimentality. I probably wouldn't eat a dog, no, but is it much worse than eating, say, a cute little pig?

We aren't drawing distinctions between animals. The distinctions were drawn long ago. Dogs are our pets companions and friends. Pigs are raised on a farm for us to eat. Its been that way for a long time.

[tmthforu94]

Restoring the right of Atlasian citizens to make their own dietary choices means we can eat humans, too?

Well, no. There's obviously no real moral justification for killing and eating animals, but unless you want to make Atlasia a vegetarian state I don't see why we should draw distinctions between different animal species out of a mix of cultural nationalism and sentimentality. I probably wouldn't eat a dog, no, but is it much worse than eating, say, a cute little pig?

We aren't drawing distinctions between animals. The distinctions were drawn long ago. Dogs are our pets companions and friends. Pigs are raised on a farm for us to eat. Its been that way for a long time.

Don't tell that to my neighbors!

Are we going to go after every animal that is considered a pet as well? Because I'll be mad as hell if you guys ban turtle!!!

But seriously.

[Niemeyerite]

Restoring the right of Atlasian citizens to make their own dietary choices... not including humans and dogs. I'd vote for that.

[Franzl]

Restoring the right of Atlasian citizens to make their own dietary choices means we can eat humans, too?

Well, no. There's obviously no real moral justification for killing and eating animals, but unless you want to make Atlasia a vegetarian state I don't see why we should draw distinctions between different animal species out of a mix of cultural nationalism and sentimentality. I probably wouldn't eat a dog, no, but is it much worse than eating, say, a cute little pig?

We aren't drawing distinctions between animals. The distinctions were drawn long ago. Dogs are our pets companions and friends. Pigs are raised on a farm for us to eat. Its been that way for a long time.

Just like those that want to change the "institution of marriage" by letting the gays marry. Using your reasoning, we're not drawing distinctions, just minding distinctions that are natural and have been that way for a long time.

[Oakvale]

Restoring the right of Atlasian citizens to make their own dietary choices means we can eat humans, too?

Well, no. There's obviously no real moral justification for killing and eating animals, but unless you want to make Atlasia a vegetarian state I don't see why we should draw distinctions between different animal species out of a mix of cultural nationalism and sentimentality. I probably wouldn't eat a dog, no, but is it much worse than eating, say, a cute little pig?

We aren't drawing distinctions between animals. The distinctions were drawn long ago. Dogs are our pets companions and friends. Pigs are raised on a farm for us to eat. Its been that way for a long time.

An appeal to tradition seems like a counter intuitive stance for a liberal President to take. Traditions should be justified based on their merit, not merely on the fact that they're, well, traditional.

Do I particularly like the idea that people would eat dog meat? No, not really, but that's my own cultural biases speaking, and I don't think they should be imposed on cultures within Atlasia that don't share my personal feelings on this.

[Niemeyerite]

Restoring the right of Atlasian citizens to make their own dietary choices means we can eat humans, too?

Well, no. There's obviously no real moral justification for killing and eating animals, but unless you want to make Atlasia a vegetarian state I don't see why we should draw distinctions between different animal species out of a mix of cultural nationalism and sentimentality. I probably wouldn't eat a dog, no, but is it much worse than eating, say, a cute little pig?

We aren't drawing distinctions between animals. The distinctions were drawn long ago. Dogs are our pets companions and friends. Pigs are raised on a farm for us to eat. Its been that way for a long time.

An appeal to tradition seems like a counter intuitive stance for a liberal President to take. Traditions should be justified based on their merit, not merely on the fact that they're, well, traditional.

Do I particularly like the idea that people would eat dog meat? No, not really, but that's my own cultural biases speaking, and I don't think they should be imposed on cultures within Atlasia that don't share my personal feelings on this.

People can eat dog meat if they want to. What I don't think is good, moral idea is commercializing it.

[Niemeyerite]

For the record, I'm aware that the original bill doesn't ban the actual consumption of dog meat. From my initial post:

When the Senate approved this bill last September, it banned the production, sale, and purchase of canine meat for no reason other than the cuteness of the animal involved.

That is an inappropriate source of justification for such a prohibition. Whether dogs are cute or repulsive is irrelevant; instead, we should determine whether the consumption of canine meat is a moral concern or a health concern. It is neither; eating dog meat is not a health risk when it has been prepared safely. And if it is morally wrong to eat a dog, then it is also just as morally wrong to eat a pig or a cow, something that I doubt this body would be prepared to do. That is why I am asking that we repeal this law, which perpetuates a cruel stigma and unfairly limits Atlasians' access to a particular type a food.

This is a de facto prohibition, limiting access to dog meat only to those who can slaughter and butcher the animal themselves. In fact, it's possible that our current laws do nothing to prevent someone from walking into an animal shelter and buying a dozen dogs for the family barbecue.

Meat acquired on the commercial market is subject to inspection. Farmers, slaugherhouses, butchers, and markets must adhere to health, safety, and environmental regulations. (Regulations that we could make more stringent with this legislation, if anyone is interested in compromising on this bill and achieving something productive.) Furthermore, because of the stigma attached to eating dog meat, we shouldn't expect an enormous increase in consumption if we pass this bill. Major food corporations will want nothing to do with dog meat, and I doubt that anyone could market it successfully. We won't see McDogburgers anytime soon, no matter what we do.

The possibility of that scares me. People aren't complaining because they can't buy dog meat, are they? Because if we let that happen, there're many people who will complain when they find it in the markets. We should solve problems, not create new ones.

[bgwah]

Please quit acting like you're the progressives here. You're not. You're the reactionaries.

Commercialization adds an extra layer of cruelty.

Don't let Franzl and crew re-define "puppy farm" to an even more terrible meaning.