The Big Bad Swedish Politics & News Thread

[politicus]

Back to Sweden, I have a question. I'm sure all of you will say that a coalition with ANY far-right party, even just giving outside support, is impossible in Sweden right now.

Eventually it will happen though, it's going to be hard though because the Swedish Democrats are so much more extreme than the Danish People's Party or the Progress Party, with their neo-Nazi past.

Is there any chance that some of the more moderate, or at least less tainted, people within the SD break out and establish a new party that might be more suitable for a coalition?

SD is not really to the right of DPP. It i much more a matter of differences in perception off such parties and the political culture in the two countries in general than ideology. Of course the toxic roots of SD reinforces this difference, but they are not the main reason for it.

Even with the far right being somewhat normalized in Denmark, I still don't think the Liberals would ever rely on support from a party with neo-Nazi origins the way they rely on the DPP now.

The Neo-Nazi origin thing is complicated. SD was founded back in 1988 by some right wing populists and some formerly active in racist and nationalist groups, one of which - the New Swedish Movement - was fascist, but not nazi. Its first chairman was however a former member of Nordiska Rikspartiet, which was neo-Nazi and it absorbed a few others with a neo-Nazi background. But it has been through a lot of changes since then and the founders are no longer active in it. Current leader Jimmie Åkesson took over in 2005 (and came to the party in 1995 from the Moderate school youth org) and the party has been through a significant transformation in the last decade. Its roots clearly makes it harder for SD to  become accepted by mainstream parties, but I think it would have happened anyway in a political culture with a less "moralistic" (for lack of a better word) approach to politics.

Given how toxic the Nazi taint is in Denmark and Norway the leaders of a similar party would likely have dissolved it and founded a new one, when they decided to mainstream it. Given that Sweden was not occupied by Germany the far right in Sweden has been somewhat  more forgiving of Nazi connections than in DK and Norway.

[politicus]

Divers have found a sunken mini-sub marine (with inscriptions in Cyrillic letters) in Swedish territorial waters.. The 80s are back..

[ingemann]

I must admit I really don't get what people see or saw in FI, maybe it's just because while I read Swedish newspapers once in a while, I don't follow the Swedish debate enough. I usual get somewhat what people see in parties, even if I disagre with them, but FI just seemed weird.

Well, you got the wrong gender for starters.

That's a very good point, but.. (see below)

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... but a problem with this as I see it, in my experience most women don't vote after these policies. In my experience the whole gender equality as a primary policy focus are hold by very few women outside a academic elite. The "gender issues" they usual care about seem more like cheap and convenient access to childcare (so that they can work), things which are relative easy to focus on and result in a large improvement of their daily life.

BTW I found your discussion with "Swedish Austerity Creep" interesting. I must admit I find FI more of a feministic version of LA than Alternative. A party which represent already existing political policies, just more extreme.

[ingemann]

I would have thought that the Socialist People's Party would line up pretty neatly with the Dutch Socialist Party and the Swedish Left Party. Are you saying that with the Workerites gone they are a more intersectional-y rump?

I would say FI are like GreenLeft because they both flirt with liberal economics and are very intersectional-y.

I would say the Red-Greens are roughly equivalent to the FI and GreenLeft, minus the economics part. I assume they must still be pretty hardcore because of all the Communists.

but yeah, Radicals are D66, that's pretty dead on.

I still say The Alternative is also basically D66, and therefore totally redundant and unnecessary.

I would say it's the Radical who is redundant and unnecessary. The Alternative is fresh wind into Danish politics, while Radicals are a special interest party caught in a age which have been over since 2001, and which are unlikely to return.

[Gunnar Larsson]

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... but a problem with this as I see it, in my experience most women don't vote after these policies. In my experience the whole gender equality as a primary policy focus are hold by very few women outside a academic elite. The "gender issues" they usual care about seem more like cheap and convenient access to childcare (so that they can work), things which are relative easy to focus on and result in a large improvement of their daily life.

I get the feeling that you probably substantially underestimate the size of the academic "elite", a sizeable share of the electorate have spent a few years at a university. Not really sure what your point is with regards to gender issues. They can get votes on both types of gender issues in a similar way as green parties might win votes on all sorts of "green issues" etc.

[ingemann]

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... but a problem with this as I see it, in my experience most women don't vote after these policies. In my experience the whole gender equality as a primary policy focus are hold by very few women outside a academic elite. The "gender issues" they usual care about seem more like cheap and convenient access to childcare (so that they can work), things which are relative easy to focus on and result in a large improvement of their daily life.

I get the feeling that you probably substantially underestimate the size of the academic "elite", a sizeable share of the electorate have spent a few years at a university. Not really sure what your point is with regards to gender issues. They can get votes on both types of gender issues in a similar way as green parties might win votes on all sorts of "green issues" etc.

I have spend time at a university, so have many people I know, most of us still doesn't belong to a academic elite.

As for the rest of your post, yes of course you can have both have practical policies and weird ivory tower theorectical discussions about gender equality. But it's rarely a vote winner. Most parties have a limited policies to brand themselves, and it's rare for a party to succeed in branding itself both as a practical pig and a philosopher king at the same time.

[politicus]

Ingemann & Gunnar: You guys need to fix your quotes.

The segment of women that care about the more abstract and principled feminist issues is a relatively small minority, but not a tiny elite and while mainly middle class and bookish and/or arty it is not exclusively academic. This group is enough to give a niche party 3-4% of the votes. Add a few male sympathizers and some single issue voters attracted to part of the platform and you get a base. It is tricky to turn out all of this base, but not impossible.

Regarding whether you can combine different layers of women's issues the Women's List in Iceland is a good example of a feminist party working both with theoretical and practical issues - like daycare - and it was quite successful for a while.

[Gunnar Larsson]

Divers have found a sunken mini-sub marine (with inscriptions in Cyrillic letters) in Swedish territorial waters.. The 80s are back..

Though in this case it looks like Putin is innocent, as the submarine was built when Nicholas II was tsar and sunk almost 100 years ago.

[Gunnar Larsson]

I get the feeling that you probably substantially underestimate the size of the academic "elite", a sizeable share of the electorate have spent a few years at a university. Not really sure what your point is with regards to gender issues. They can get votes on both types of gender issues in a similar way as green parties might win votes on all sorts of "green issues" etc.

I have spend time at a university, so have many people I know, most of us still doesn't belong to a academic elite.

As for the rest of your post, yes of course you can have both have practical policies and weird ivory tower theorectical discussions about gender equality. But it's rarely a vote winner. Most parties have a limited policies to brand themselves, and it's rare for a party to succeed in branding itself both as a practical pig and a philosopher king at the same time.

Well, then you are (apart from being male) part of the demographics from which FI get many of their votes. They are not all Phds in Gender Studies, but comes from a somewhat broader demographics as described by politicus.

I would say that it is rather common to have both very ideological and very pragmatic fractions/tendencies in most parties. For example you have the fundis vs realos for the greens. I would say that the workers movement is the only exception as it has been large enough to contain both pragmatic social democratic parties and more ideological communist/leftist parties. I would say that the FI brand is basically feminism/justice between the genders, rather than any specific policies (in the same way as the green brand is about environmentalism and the SD brand about anti-immigration, without being tightly bound to any specific policies).

[DavidB.]

Oh Sweden, you never cease to amaze me.

An astonishing video of hippie activists vandalizing Stockholm's Östermalmstorg underground station because of a Sweden Democrats ad. I also read that Löfven has condemned this behavior, but seemed even more eager to condemn the ad itself... What was on the ad?

http://www.metro.se/metro-tv/har-river-demonstranter-ner-sds-tunnelbanereklam/EVHohd!32dTuZtUbTU6/

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Apparently it's advertisements aimed at tourists (it's written in broken English for one) apologising about the "mess" from beggars and tourists and promising to be the true opposition. It's an intriguing idea - I've never really heard of a political campaign being aimed entirely at people who can't vote.
; but it seems the hippies are really irked by public transport being used to advertise for the SD's.

[politicus]

Apparently it's advertisements aimed at tourists (it's written in broken English for one) apologising about the "mess" from beggars and tourists and promising to be the true opposition. It's an intriguing idea - I've never really heard of a political campaign being aimed entirely at people who can't vote.
; but it seems the hippies are really irked by public transport being used to advertise for the SD's.

The target audience is Swedes embarrassed by their country looking "messy" to foreign guests. It probably works well, neatness and order are highly valued by "Middle-Sweden".

[DavidB.]

Apparently it's advertisements aimed at tourists (it's written in broken English for one) apologising about the "mess" from beggars and tourists and promising to be the true opposition. It's an intriguing idea - I've never really heard of a political campaign being aimed entirely at people who can't vote.
; but it seems the hippies are really irked by public transport being used to advertise for the SD's.

The target audience is Swedes embarrassed by their country looking "messy" to foreign guests. It probably works well, neatness and order are highly valued by "Middle-Sweden".

And why would Stockholm be messy? Does this alleged "messiness" imply something that can be perceived as racist, or are people angry just because it's SD?

[ingemann]

Apparently it's advertisements aimed at tourists (it's written in broken English for one) apologising about the "mess" from beggars and tourists and promising to be the true opposition. It's an intriguing idea - I've never really heard of a political campaign being aimed entirely at people who can't vote.
; but it seems the hippies are really irked by public transport being used to advertise for the SD's.

The target audience is Swedes embarrassed by their country looking "messy" to foreign guests. It probably works well, neatness and order are highly valued by "Middle-Sweden".

And why would Stockholm be messy? Does this alleged "messiness" imply something that can be perceived as racist, or are people angry just because it's SD?

My guess are that it's about "Romanian" beggars. In Scandinavia begging was relative limited until the 00s, it was mostly native homeless. But since Romania became part of EU, there have bee a llarge influx of beggars from Romania (much like in other parts of Europe), who also make up part of a new wave of burglaries, cons and home robberies (through a large part of these in Scandinavia are commited by "Lithuanians" and other "Balts").

Of course I include the inverted commas because the "Romanians" are mostly Romani/Gypsies, while the Lithuanians are largely Lithuanian Russians (often people who are returning after having worked abroad, and lack money because they have send all their earnings home to the family).

As such this is likely a campaign against Romanis, not only the Romanian ones, but also the ones who have residence in Sweden.
... and if people think that Muslims are unpopular in Europe, the opinions about Romanis are much much worse.

[Antonio the Sixth]

With or without the immigrants, I doubt any European will ever come to Sweden and think "gee, what a messy country!"

[DavidB.]

Apparently it's advertisements aimed at tourists (it's written in broken English for one) apologising about the "mess" from beggars and tourists and promising to be the true opposition. It's an intriguing idea - I've never really heard of a political campaign being aimed entirely at people who can't vote.
; but it seems the hippies are really irked by public transport being used to advertise for the SD's.

The target audience is Swedes embarrassed by their country looking "messy" to foreign guests. It probably works well, neatness and order are highly valued by "Middle-Sweden".

And why would Stockholm be messy? Does this alleged "messiness" imply something that can be perceived as racist, or are people angry just because it's SD?

My guess are that it's about "Romanian" beggars. In Scandinavia begging was relative limited until the 00s, it was mostly native homeless. But since Romania became part of EU, there have bee a llarge influx of beggars from Romania (much like in other parts of Europe), who also make up part of a new wave of burglaries, cons and home robberies (through a large part of these in Scandinavia are commited by "Lithuanians" and other "Balts").

Of course I include the inverted commas because the "Romanians" are mostly Romani/Gypsies, while the Lithuanians are largely Lithuanian Russians (often people who are returning after having worked abroad, and lack money because they have send all their earnings home to the family).

As such this is likely a campaign against Romanis, not only the Romanian ones, but also the ones who have residence in Sweden.
... and if people think that Muslims are unpopular in Europe, the opinions about Romanis are much much worse.

Clear answer, thanks. Sounds plausible to me. In the Netherlands, the situation is comparable - with regard to both increasing crime from "Romanians" and opinions about Eastern Europeans in general. The only difference is, for obvious reasons, that there are many Poles and almost no Lithuanians here.

With or without the immigrants, I doubt any European will ever come to Sweden and think "gee, what a messy country!"

Lol, indeed But that doesn't really matter as long as Swedes believe it - after all, they are the ones who have seen their city become "messier" (at least if this perception, on which the campaign would be based, is shared by many Swedes, which is something I'd believe).

[ingemann]

With or without the immigrants, I doubt any European will ever come to Sweden and think "gee, what a messy country!"

It's several difference aspect, one is that Stockholm and other large cities have changed, but it's also people thinking back and telling themselves how much better the world was in old day (when the young was respectful to their olders, the summers warmers, the sky more blue etc.). At last it a wrong comparison, what foreigners think about this doesn't matter, this is a campaign to Swedes disguised as a fake excuse to foreign tourist.

Of course the people pulling down this ad served as the third part of this ad. It fit into their narrative that SD are persecuted by the political establishment and their opponents are a bunch of jackbooted thugs.

So they sold first a message how those thieving Romanis are destroying Stockholm, then the media raised awareness of this to all of Sweden by taking a stand against it, then their opponents made themselves look like arrogants snobs by mocking their English and at last SD could sell their opponents as jackbooted thugs.

Success.

While if this ad had been ignored, only Stockholmers (a group where SD get few voters) would have seen it and SD would just have wasted some money.

[DavidB.]

Other news that might give SD a boost: http://www.svd.se/1200-live-fran-polisens-presskonferens/om/knivattacken-pa-ikea.

Two asylum seekers from Eritrea have been arrested for stabbing two people to death in an IKEA in Västerås. It seems that they didn't have a political motive. The police are investigating the details.

[Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese]

Two asylum seekers from Eritrea have been arrested for stabbing two people to death in an IKEA in Västerås. It seems that they didn't have a political motive. The police are investigating the details.

It's a terribly tragic event. The victims were a middle-aged woman and her son in his twenties. The police has so far only been able to release very limited information about their investigation. They've said that they haven't found any signs of a political motive so far, but they aren't ruling it out either. It's to early to know anything in other words. The lack of information has of course given birth to various rumors.

One of the suspected murderers are at the time being operated for wounds he himself received during the attack. The as of yet unconfirmed theory I've herd is that he was injured by the son who was trying to protect his mother.

The police is also taking security measures to protect the asylum centre were the two murderers were living, in order to prevent any violent acts of retaliation that might be directed at it. 

[DavidB.]

Two asylum seekers from Eritrea have been arrested for stabbing two people to death in an IKEA in Västerås. It seems that they didn't have a political motive. The police are investigating the details.

It's a terribly tragic event. The victims were a middle-aged woman and her son in his twenties. The police has so far only been able to release very limited information about their investigation. They've said that they haven't found any signs of a political motive so far, but they aren't ruling it out either. It's to early to know anything in other words. The lack of information has of course given birth to various rumors.

One of the suspected murderers are at the time being operated for wounds he himself received during the attack. The as of yet unconfirmed theory I've herd is that he was injured by the son who was trying to protect his mother.

The police is also taking security measures to protect the asylum centre were the two murderers were living, in order to prevent any violent acts of retaliation that might be directed at it.  

Terribly tragic indeed. Let's hope that the other, third victim will be alright.

[Gustaf]

Two asylum seekers from Eritrea have been arrested for stabbing two people to death in an IKEA in Västerås. It seems that they didn't have a political motive. The police are investigating the details.

It's a terribly tragic event. The victims were a middle-aged woman and her son in his twenties. The police has so far only been able to release very limited information about their investigation. They've said that they haven't found any signs of a political motive so far, but they aren't ruling it out either. It's to early to know anything in other words. The lack of information has of course given birth to various rumors.

One of the suspected murderers are at the time being operated for wounds he himself received during the attack. The as of yet unconfirmed theory I've herd is that he was injured by the son who was trying to protect his mother.

The police is also taking security measures to protect the asylum centre were the two murderers were living, in order to prevent any violent acts of retaliation that might be directed at it.  

Terribly tragic indeed. Let's hope that the other, third victim will be alright.

Let's not, since the third "victim" seems to be the perpetrator.

Antonio, your post is exactly what the campaign aims at. Swedes take pride in being the type of country that others come to and are amazed by the tidiness and there not being visible poverty, etc.

This strikes effectively at the fears of many Swedes. Of course, the insane overreaction of, well, everyone not SD gave them the kind of coverage they could never have dreamed about. They basically admitted that this was their plan as well. The Swedish left is so easy to play for SD.

[DavidB.]

Oh, really... I didn't know that. Indeed, let's not, then

I try to be reluctant in demonizing Sweden as the one progressive Tumblr multiculti lalaland in the world, as some people do, since reality in Sweden isn't that different from reality in e.g. Denmark or the Netherlands (even if the political reality certainly is). However, the buzz around SD's underground campaign amazes me. It shows once again that the Swedish mainstream is almost taking pride in taking the mistakes of so many other European mainstream parties to the extreme. The truth of the matter is that this will backfire epically, like it did in Denmark, the Netherlands, the UK, Finland... I truly believe that the electoral ceiling for SD is even higher than that of the Dutch PVV used to be, before all the scandals. These feelings among voters simply don't just go away by basically saying "lalala I can't hear you" or by calling a party racist. Sweden has an interesting political future...

[ingemann]

Of course in all fairness it should be said, that while it's in the interest of the Swedish mainstream and far left as collectivse to ignore this ad campaign, as individuals a lot of people acted in their own interest. As this gave them some street creds and maybe even public recognisation, which they can use to sell themselves and their organisations, some which nobody have likely heard about.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

It is an intriguing technique from an electoral standpoint. In fact it is the obvious situation from, say, Denmark and the Netherlands etc. in those countries, pretty much every party's immigration platform crept rightwards to follow the new populist upstarts lead (aside from parties whose 'branding' is solidly anti-populist, even elitist - your Radikal Venstre's and D66's). In Sweden, we have seen very little attempts to emulate the SD's platform from neither parties of the left nor the parties of the right; in direct contrast to considerable shifts in immigration policy from various disparate governments (Rutte, Cameron, Thoning-Schmidt, Hollande and Stubb).

We can see this strategy of ignoring surging right populists in a few other countries: Merkel's government has largely ignored AfD's and other's complaints about immigration; Faymann and Renzi seem to take rising populist rightists in their stride as well; but only in Sweden do we see the entire "establishment" locking right-populists from power (well, maybe in Germany; but they have a historical reason).

Is this a wise strategy? I see two arguments countering each other. I suppose the one people agree with probably depends on their pre-existing views:

"this is a wise strategy. Other countries' parties attempts to emulate right-populist platforms did nothing to stem their rise and instead emboldened them. The SD's will have a natural ceiling  in the population which locks them from power - it's best to not engage with them or legitimise until they fizzle out like, say, Vlaams Belang or the BNP did."

"This is not a wise strategy. Ignoring the populists' demands will enrage them and cause them to grow even more; while giving dissatisfied citizens an untested outlet to express their rage. An unchecked angry group of populists would cause chaos in both a parliamentary context (with SD's wrecking bills) and in an extraparliamentary sense".

[DavidB.]

As I see it, SD's success is based on these two "pillars":

1. The extreme demonization of the party itself (and the demonization of every dissenting opinion on immigration/multiculturalism).

2. Other parties not taking the issue(s) seriously. Other parties could even ignore the SDs entirely, officially (through a cordon sanitaire) or unofficially, while addressing the issues they base their success on. From an electoral perspective, that would significantly decrease SD's appeal. Instead, center-right (!!!!) leader Reinfeldt did the entire opposite thing by telling Swedes to "open their hearts" (and their wallets...) for endless immigration. Well, yeah, then you're basically digging your own grave...

By contrast, the Dutch PVV has become toxic for government cooperation by now, probably almost as much as SD, because of remarks that are considered racist by most people. While the PVV is highly demonized, its electoral potential isn't nearly as great as it used to be, because other parties (most notably the VVD) started to take immigration seriously - or at least they made it look like that... As you said, the entire political spectrum shifted to the right on "multiculturalism" issues (except for D66/GL/the new joke party DENK, who constitute the logical progressive reaction to this shift to the right). So while the PVV can rely on protest voters ("SD pillar 1"), the other parties have not only made serious debate about immigration acceptable, but also incorporated in their program views on immigration that are considered more sensible by many people, "removing" SD's success pillar 2 for the PVV.

I support the view that the Swedish mainstream has made an unwise choice. Given the SD's past, there might have been legitimate concerns about incorporating them into a coalition (at least in 2010), but parties should have addressed people's concerns about immigration. These concerns aren't inherently racist and I think it's legitimate to question the status-quo on this issue, especially when all mainstream parties are taking the extreme position they're taking right now ("let 'em all in").

For me, this is simply an issue of the functioning of a democracy. If parties keep ignoring an issue to the point that another party fills the void, if parties continue to ignore the issue if the party promoting the issue is the third party in parliament and is at 23% in the polls, and if these parties even then continue dismissing the very legitimacy of any debate on the issue, then my view is that such a democracy simply doesn't function as it should.