is Rick Santorum more or less objectionable because he is a Roman Catholic?

[patrick1]

Ooh, good question. I think his misuse of Catholicism is a particularly grating quality, which would be impossible without him being Catholic, so more.

(margin found!)

How's he misusing it? The things about him people find so objectionable are just due to him following the church's actual teachings and beliefs.

More, because I see him as a false prophet merely claiming to be Catholic to fool uneducated voters.

The guy goes to Latin Mass, you can't get much more purely Catholic than that. Certainly not something a closet Protestant would do. And who is he fooling? I can't see anyone willing to vote for Santorum but wouldn't be willing to do so if he was Protestant, but plus Catholicism obviously had next to no effect and where his support in the primary came from.

I voted more because what his abhorrent policies come from a very hierarchical and organized organization. Conservative evangelicals are fractured and often fight with things amongst themselves.

To me it comes down to a matter of priorities in his faith.  Growing up the main dictum(s) I was taught was the Great Commandment and The New Commandment. His more strident criticisms and condemnations are misplaced, wrong and at odds with the aforementioned articles.  They are not a message of inclusion but exclusion. Of course, you have many in the college who put forth the same positions. It is one thing to believe something to be sin- it is quite another to de-humanize those who you think engage in it.

OK but what is the Catholic hierarchy and leadership prioritizing? Like it or not, Santorum is more within their worldview than any liberal is.

Catholicism is a religion of love, compassion, and social obligations. Santorum would be a nasty individual no matter what faith tradition he identified with.

It's kind of odd seeing a gay say this.

I agree with the second sentence though.

My partner's extended family is conservative Catholic. And with few exceptions, they are accepting of me, even though they don't accept SSM. Through my partner's life and that of some of the nuns' organizations I see a positive community-minded faith that reminds me of some of what I learned in Hebrew School. It's a part of the faith that is only sometimes conveyed by the leadership, which will speak out against war and in favor of caring for the poor one week and then declare a line in the sand on gay rights the next.

Unfortunately as noted above the priorities lately have radically changed. When was Paul Ryan condemned by the leadership (not a group of rogue nuns) for his economic plans as much as pro-choice and pro-gay marriage politicians have been?

To be honest here's the root problem here for me: It strikes me as a little absurd to say that Catholicism is generally OK and good and it's just some people like Santorum and the leadership who are ruining it but evangelical Protestantism is fundamentally rotten for rather obvious reasons.

my question is this:
Has Santorum mended the catholic-protestant divide that has traditionally existed?

That hasn't been a major factor in anything for around 50 years now.

BRTD, you seem naturally, on this forum at least, to be a judgmental and prejudiced person- quick to snap decisions. It does not shock me that you would be more open to hear what you find objectionable than the actual good that is done. Listen, I am in no position to defend the Catholic Church. There were deep moral failings within the church that were, in my opinion, more serious than their stances on gay rights or contraception. However, the Church and its members have done tremendous work in the developing world, in education, against poverty, against war and a voice for immigrants and the undocumented.  It would be wise and better for you to fill your easel with a more varied set of equipment.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

To be honest patrick, I might be a bit less judgmental here if Catholics in general were less judgmental of others' choices and rights to make their own decisions. I doubt it's as bad now as it is 31 years ago but I have never heard of Lutheran parents throwing a fit about their kid getting married in a non-Lutheran church at any point or insisting anyone baptized Lutheran belongs to them to life and they can't ever leave or no longer affiliate with them if they choose that way. oakvale claims that most people in Ireland would consider all the ex-Catholics in my church to still be Catholic, which is like the most inane thing ever.

Despite all that, as I explained here the deep flaws are just too great to that I would never be willing to associate with Catholicism under any circumstances whatsoever, no matter how I was raised or even if my ancestors were 100% Catholic (mind you many of them were). People should not associate with something they have next to nothing in common of due to accident of birth.

[patrick1]

Let it go, that particular family anecdote was a long time ago. Mistrust and enmity went both ways. As Torie mentioned there was a time that Catholics were seen as insufficiently patriotic by many. This was around a time that all of my forebears including the women were in the Marine Corps or Army fighting for it. Eventually you have to accept what happened as past and go forward.
The Jesuits are not hatching any conspiracies to mass convert you. By doctrine, Baptism is a sacrament and is meant to hold an eternal quality. Likewise with marriage. Now you can choose to be offended your whole life by these things or just accept that you disagree .  I am not very religious, atm at least, but it does seem that you would have a more fulfilling faith by looking at your own beliefs more and how you treat others than to shoot off constantly on how you disagree with something else. As a general rule, it is far better to be for something than against something.
Lastly, a lot of things happen by accident of birth. I didn't ask to be an American either. The beauty here is that you can either accept or reject it.  I hope all is well and you enjoy your Sundays.

[Smash255]

Neither,  the fact he is a fundamentalist asshole is what makes him objectionable, not his religion.

[Platypus]

Despite all that, as I explained here the deep flaws are just too great to that I would never be willing to associate with Catholicism under any circumstances whatsoever, no matter how I was raised or even if my ancestors were 100% Catholic (mind you many of them were). People should not associate with something they have next to nothing in common of due to accident of birth.

Next wednesday I'll be going to a funeral in Sydney for a friend, who was heavily involved in queer activism (amongst many other things). Half the funeral will be gays, and many of them on the extreme end of the scale.

It will be held at a Catholic church with the whole shebang of catholicism, sans eulogy, avec weird incantations, and I will go and stand up and sit down and maybe even say an appropriately voiceless amen or two.

He would never choose this funeral, but his parents did, and so off I'll go to support them in a difficult time for me, but an awful time for them. I won't allow my serious misgivings and quite frankly dislike for the Catholic church distract myself or the family from the event.

My question is this: What would you do - go and fit in, go and protest, or miss the funeral?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I'd go. Which is quite different from identifying as Catholic or financially supporting the church in any way. And in fact if I was potentially in such a situation I'd probably stipulate in my will that I would not receive a Catholic funeral (wouldn't be needed though, my parents are the type who'd respect my wishes anyway.)

Let it go, that particular family anecdote was a long time ago. Mistrust and enmity went both ways. As Torie mentioned there was a time that Catholics were seen as insufficiently patriotic by many. This was around a time that all of my forebears including the women were in the Marine Corps or Army fighting for it. Eventually you have to accept what happened as past and go forward.
The Jesuits are not hatching any conspiracies to mass convert you. By doctrine, Baptism is a sacrament and is meant to hold an eternal quality. Likewise with marriage. Now you can choose to be offended your whole life by these things or just accept that you disagree .  I am not very religious, atm at least, but it does seem that you would have a more fulfilling faith by looking at your own beliefs more and how you treat others than to shoot off constantly on how you disagree with something else. As a general rule, it is far better to be for something than against something.

Lastly, a lot of things happen by accident of birth. I didn't ask to be an American either. The beauty here is that you can either accept or reject it.  I hope all is well and you enjoy your Sundays.

OK but can you then understand how people hurt by the church in the past (and people who are divorced are another great example) might have some misgivings and animosity?

I really have no issue with immigration or emigration to quote your example there and to cite the example in my linked post, would it be right for the girl in question there to simply accept her accident of birth and not do what she wanted? But as should be obvious to anyone who's been here awhile I put next to no value whatsoever on tradition or family heritage, at least as far as my personal values are concerned.

Mind you, the Midwest must be one of the places in the Western world with the weakest link between nominal denominational affiliation and ethnicity simply because they aren't very correlated, a lot of the Germans are Lutheran anyway so even those really German places aren't going to be overwhelmingly Catholic. No one feels like they have any type of "ethnic obligation" to identify as Catholic (I find the premise absurd anyway, but that also might just be due to lack of being exposed to it.) Honestly I wasn't even aware there were people who thought that way and would identify as Catholic despite never attending Mass until I was an adult.

[7,052,770]

BRTD, you have to realize that your family incident is extremely unusual and in no way resembles the action of typical catholics, right?

[Keystone Phil]

Great topic.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BRTD, you have to realize that your family incident is extremely unusual and in no way resembles the action of typical catholics, right?

In the present day, yes.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

BRTD's blatant bigotry is even worse than mine in the worst of circumstances. Quite frankly, we're all sick of it.

[Keystone Phil]

BRTD's blatant bigotry is even worse than mine in the worst of circumstances. Quite frankly, we're all sick of it.

Welcome to...six years ago?

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

BRTD's blatant bigotry is even worse than mine in the worst of circumstances. Quite frankly, we're all sick of it.

Welcome to...six years ago?

The answer hasn't changed in all those six years.

[All Along The Watchtower]

What Santorum represents isn't that uncommon within "strict" Catholicism, but I would hardly call him representative.

[All Along The Watchtower]

To be honest patrick, I might be a bit less judgmental here if Catholics in general were less judgmental of others' choices and rights to make their own decisions.

Ironic coming from you, of course.

[Oakvale]

BRTD remains one of the only people who can get me to defend the Catholic Church. Mainly because he doesn't actually criticise the Church all that much instead of being an unrepentant bigot against the millions of practicing Catholics who don't toe the strict party line on every theological issue.

I also might as well point out that I was joking when I said that you can "never leave' the Catholic Church. As I recall I was actually referencing a joke I heard some comedian tell. Which isn't to say I wasn't trying to make a valid point - I was trying to impress upon BRTD that the American way - or, er, what he tells me is the American way - that religious identification changes is more or less unique to the US. In Ireland, but also in most of Europe generally, if someone's born Catholic they stay "Catholic", even if only nominally - prodigious conversion seems to be largely a US phenomenon.

The other point I was making is that - obviously - Irish identity and Catholic identity are almost inextricably linked. That's not something that's always had great consequences, of course, since you have the nasty element in the past of Protestants being considered "less" genuinely Irish, but I digress. A Catholic is not someone who is a fanatical supporter of the Catholic Church. The vast majority of Catholic women, shocker, use birth control, which as far as I'm aware the Pope is still opposed to. A Catholic is someone who culturally identifies as such.

For a personal example, my mother identifies as Catholic, goes to Mass on Christmas and Easter, but is by no means devout and doesn't stop what she's doing at noon to go through her rosary beads. She agrees with Catholic teaching on virtually no "social issue", but if you asked her she'd say she was Catholic without a second thought. That's very, very common. I'd go as far as to say it's the norm... at least here.

Grow up, BRTD. I don't have much time for the Catholic Church by any means, but your bigotry against Catholics is pretty obnoxious and I'm reasonably certain Hipster Jesus wouldn't approve.

[Keystone Phil]

Why do we still discuss this stuff? BRTD very obviously has some "issues." I don't say that to be funny; he has problems. He will post a topic or post about a subject, masking it as an attempt to get the community's opinion on a general topic but actually just wants to vent about some really bizarre personal account that literally no one cares about.

You must remember that this is a child (yes, he's at an adult age but no one here should doubt he's at the maturity level of a nine year old) that rails against people for using anecdotes to prove points then does the same thing except he does it more than anyone else.

So stop asking him to grow up. It's a waste of time. Instead, encourage this sad person to seek help.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BRTD remains one of the only people who can get me to defend the Catholic Church. Mainly because he doesn't actually criticise the Church all that much instead of being an unrepentant bigot against the millions of practicing Catholics who don't toe the strict party line on every theological issue.

I also might as well point out that I was joking when I said that you can "never leave' the Catholic Church. As I recall I was actually referencing a joke I heard some comedian tell. Which isn't to say I wasn't trying to make a valid point - I was trying to impress upon BRTD that the American way - or, er, what he tells me is the American way - that religious identification changes is more or less unique to the US. In Ireland, but also in most of Europe generally, if someone's born Catholic they stay "Catholic", even if only nominally - prodigious conversion seems to be largely a US phenomenon.

The other point I was making is that - obviously - Irish identity and Catholic identity are almost inextricably linked. That's not something that's always had great consequences, of course, since you have the nasty element in the past of Protestants being considered "less" genuinely Irish, but I digress. A Catholic is not someone who is a fanatical supporter of the Catholic Church. The vast majority of Catholic women, shocker, use birth control, which as far as I'm aware the Pope is still opposed to. A Catholic is someone who culturally identifies as such.

For a personal example, my mother identifies as Catholic, goes to Mass on Christmas and Easter, but is by no means devout and doesn't stop what she's doing at noon to go through her rosary beads. She agrees with Catholic teaching on virtually no "social issue", but if you asked her she'd say she was Catholic without a second thought. That's very, very common. I'd go as far as to say it's the norm... at least here.

Grow up, BRTD. I don't have much time for the Catholic Church by any means, but your bigotry against Catholics is pretty obnoxious and I'm reasonably certain Hipster Jesus wouldn't approve.

I would not have much of a problem with this if these type of people often had such a difficult time accepting that their kids might not want to identify as Catholic even if in a purely nominal sense. If you recall back in 2008 Supersoulty was talking about how Tim Pawlenty (who obviously I am very very far from a fan of...to put it mildly) would be a disaster as McCain's running mate because lots of Catholic voters would freak out over him for converting away from the church.

[TJ in Oregon]

Interestingly, Sarah Palin is also an ex-Catholic. No one cared and hardly anyone knew.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

That's Sarah Palin. Considering everything else that came up about her and all the other controversy there was, that's a pretty boring and extremely minor thing.

Mind you I don't necessarily think there would've been a lot of controversy over Pawlenty for that either (after all there wasn't here when he was Governor, I never heard anyone bring that up and wasn't even aware of it until he started trying for the VP position), but there clearly is some attitude that would give Supersoulty the impression that that people would react that way.

[traininthedistance]

BRTD, have you ever heard of "cafeteria Catholics"?  I'd wager they're a lot more common and real than whatever poorly-supported anecdote Superwhoever brought up once over four years ago.

You really do have a perplexing and hard-to-defend blind spot when it comes to these matters.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BRTD, have you ever heard of "cafeteria Catholics"?  I'd wager they're a lot more common and real than whatever poorly-supported anecdote Superwhoever brought up once over four years ago.

You really do have a perplexing and hard-to-defend blind spot when it comes to these matters.

Actually, his point was that such people would be reluctant to vote for a ticket with an ex-Catholic on it. Basically he argued that to a lot of Catholics, including many swing voters who obviously did not agree with the church on everything, a ticket with a pro-choice Catholic would be seen as more tolerable than one with a pro-life ex-Catholic, basically rejecting the church trumps rejecting some of the church's teachings. I don't necessarily agree with this, but being pro-life does give some cover, imagine the howls that would come from groups like the Catholic League if a pro-choice ex-Catholic ever was on the Democratic ticket.

But of course I'm aware of such people. I just don't get why anyone would continue to affiliate with such an organization. You don't hear about cafeteria Southern Baptists do you? That's because people who are more liberal than that group leave it. Also consider that basically no one in my subculture identifies as Catholic, no I don't go around shows polling people about their religion or anything, but I've been pretty active on lots of forums where heated religious debates come up and am quite aware of the Christian hardcore scene, there are probably more atheists at your average Christian hardcore show than Catholics. Hell this song is from a Christian hardcore band.

[Smash255]

BRTD, have you ever heard of "cafeteria Catholics"?  I'd wager they're a lot more common and real than whatever poorly-supported anecdote Superwhoever brought up once over four years ago.

You really do have a perplexing and hard-to-defend blind spot when it comes to these matters.

Actually, his point was that such people would be reluctant to vote for a ticket with an ex-Catholic on it. Basically he argued that to a lot of Catholics, including many swing voters who obviously did not agree with the church on everything, a ticket with a pro-choice Catholic would be seen as more tolerable than one with a pro-life ex-Catholic, basically rejecting the church trumps rejecting some of the church's teachings. I don't necessarily agree with this, but being pro-life does give some cover, imagine the howls that would come from groups like the Catholic League if a pro-choice ex-Catholic ever was on the Democratic ticket.

But of course I'm aware of such people. I just don't get why anyone would continue to affiliate with such an organization. You don't hear about cafeteria Southern Baptists do you? That's because people who are more liberal than that group leave it. Also consider that basically no one in my subculture identifies as Catholic, no I don't go around shows polling people about their religion or anything, but I've been pretty active on lots of forums where heated religious debates come up and am quite aware of the Christian hardcore scene, there are probably more atheists at your average Christian hardcore show than Catholics. Hell this song is from a Christian hardcore band.

Part of the reason you don't see as many leave is because the group that disagrees with the leadership is so large.  Its not like the Southern Baptists in which someone who disagrees with the leadership has only a small amount of others that disagree with their leadership.  Also to many its more of an idenity than a religious belief system.

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

I would say moreso, simply because I grew up in a majority-Catholic town, surrounded by peers who went to the local Catholic church on the weekend.  I can not think of one time throughout middle or high school when anyone said anything as objectionable and offensive as what Christy McSweatervest says every time you put a microphone to his gullet.  Notice I said "throughout middle and high school' i.e. - adolescents.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BRTD, have you ever heard of "cafeteria Catholics"?  I'd wager they're a lot more common and real than whatever poorly-supported anecdote Superwhoever brought up once over four years ago.

You really do have a perplexing and hard-to-defend blind spot when it comes to these matters.

Actually, his point was that such people would be reluctant to vote for a ticket with an ex-Catholic on it. Basically he argued that to a lot of Catholics, including many swing voters who obviously did not agree with the church on everything, a ticket with a pro-choice Catholic would be seen as more tolerable than one with a pro-life ex-Catholic, basically rejecting the church trumps rejecting some of the church's teachings. I don't necessarily agree with this, but being pro-life does give some cover, imagine the howls that would come from groups like the Catholic League if a pro-choice ex-Catholic ever was on the Democratic ticket.

But of course I'm aware of such people. I just don't get why anyone would continue to affiliate with such an organization. You don't hear about cafeteria Southern Baptists do you? That's because people who are more liberal than that group leave it. Also consider that basically no one in my subculture identifies as Catholic, no I don't go around shows polling people about their religion or anything, but I've been pretty active on lots of forums where heated religious debates come up and am quite aware of the Christian hardcore scene, there are probably more atheists at your average Christian hardcore show than Catholics. Hell this song is from a Christian hardcore band.

Part of the reason you don't see as many leave is because the group that disagrees with the leadership is so large.  Its not like the Southern Baptists in which someone who disagrees with the leadership has only a small amount of others that disagree with their leadership.  Also to many its more of an idenity than a religious belief system.

See that kind of just reminds me of people who identify as Republicans and insist they can change the party and aren't enabling all the crazy in it. And the "identity" thing fails when you look at lots of people. Is Tom Cruise a Catholic? Or Keith Ellison? What about Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church Katharine Jefferts Schori? She was baptized in a Catholic church.

[TJ in Oregon]

BRTD, since you are so adamantly against Catholics being baptized into the church without choosing to, what about this:

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