is Rick Santorum more or less objectionable because he is a Roman Catholic?

[patrick1]

You know my whole neutral hoodie/band shirt/jeans outfit? People wear that EVERYWHERE. You can go to a show in Europe or even South Africa and people will be dressed the exact same way.

I spent many years going to a scene where everyone dressed the exact same way.....


it was Catholic school

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

There are definite regional sounds though, often with odd counterparts, for example there is a very distinctive German sound that is primarily influenced by New England in the late 90s, a French sound (and similar but not the same French Canadian sound) which is primarily influenced by San Diego circa 1990, and an Italian sound which is most like the Midwest in the mid-90s. Interestingly Brooklyn and Queens sound absolutely nothing alike. South Africa sounds like Queens or South Florida around the turn of the century.

I feel weird being able to identify all this, since most people upon hearing it are like "It's all just noise".

You know my whole neutral hoodie/band shirt/jeans outfit? People wear that EVERYWHERE. You can go to a show in Europe or even South Africa and people will be dressed the exact same way.

I spent many years going to a scene where everyone dressed the exact same way.....


it was Catholic school

It's obviously not a uniform or the "exact same way": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnWX85PnnfM

There's a ton of different fashion styles there. Just not any you'll likely see anyone wearing at mass.

[patrick1]

I used to wear my clip on tie too loose in grade school, done ironically of course.

[Simfan34]

There are definite regional sounds though, often with odd counterparts, for example there is a very distinctive German sound that is primarily influenced by New England in the late 90s, a French sound (and similar but not the same French Canadian sound) which is primarily influenced by San Diego circa 1990, and an Italian sound which is most like the Midwest in the mid-90s. Interestingly Brooklyn and Queens sound absolutely nothing alike. South Africa sounds like Queens or South Florida around the turn of the century.

I feel weird being able to identify all this, since most people upon hearing it are like "It's all just noise".

You know my whole neutral hoodie/band shirt/jeans outfit? People wear that EVERYWHERE. You can go to a show in Europe or even South Africa and people will be dressed the exact same way.

I spent many years going to a scene where everyone dressed the exact same way.....


it was Catholic school

It's obviously not a uniform or the "exact same way": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnWX85PnnfM

There's a ton of different fashion styles there. Just not any you'll likely see anyone wearing at mass.

How is this different from an environment, like a Catholic church, where it's acceptable to wear jeans, suits, chinos, bow ties, cords... whereas your people seem truly uniform.

[DC Al Fine]

There are definite regional sounds though, often with odd counterparts, for example there is a very distinctive German sound that is primarily influenced by New England in the late 90s, a French sound (and similar but not the same French Canadian sound) which is primarily influenced by San Diego circa 1990, and an Italian sound which is most like the Midwest in the mid-90s. Interestingly Brooklyn and Queens sound absolutely nothing alike. South Africa sounds like Queens or South Florida around the turn of the century.

I feel weird being able to identify all this, since most people upon hearing it are like "It's all just noise".

You know my whole neutral hoodie/band shirt/jeans outfit? People wear that EVERYWHERE. You can go to a show in Europe or even South Africa and people will be dressed the exact same way.

I spent many years going to a scene where everyone dressed the exact same way.....


it was Catholic school

It's obviously not a uniform or the "exact same way": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnWX85PnnfM

There's a ton of different fashion styles there. Just not any you'll likely see anyone wearing at mass.

How is this different from an environment, like a Catholic church, where it's acceptable to wear jeans, suits, chinos, bow ties, cords... whereas your people seem truly uniform.

If anything BRTD would be more likely to be accepted in his gear in a standard evangelical church than I would be at one of his concerts in my sport coat and slacks

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

There are definite regional sounds though, often with odd counterparts, for example there is a very distinctive German sound that is primarily influenced by New England in the late 90s, a French sound (and similar but not the same French Canadian sound) which is primarily influenced by San Diego circa 1990, and an Italian sound which is most like the Midwest in the mid-90s. Interestingly Brooklyn and Queens sound absolutely nothing alike. South Africa sounds like Queens or South Florida around the turn of the century.

I feel weird being able to identify all this, since most people upon hearing it are like "It's all just noise".

You know my whole neutral hoodie/band shirt/jeans outfit? People wear that EVERYWHERE. You can go to a show in Europe or even South Africa and people will be dressed the exact same way.

I spent many years going to a scene where everyone dressed the exact same way.....


it was Catholic school

It's obviously not a uniform or the "exact same way": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnWX85PnnfM

There's a ton of different fashion styles there. Just not any you'll likely see anyone wearing at mass.

How is this different from an environment, like a Catholic church, where it's acceptable to wear jeans, suits, chinos, bow ties, cords... whereas your people seem truly uniform.

How is that uniform? Even amongst just the band there's a variety. Also note all the variety here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gEMxYHkVAY

(For anyone who claims girls are never present at these, note the cute blonde nodding her head near the front.)

If anything BRTD would be more likely to be accepted in his gear in a standard evangelical church than I would be at one of his concerts in my sport coat and slacks

I was under the impression people dress casually at standard evangelical churches anyway (and these shows are not "concerts".)

But anyway in further regards to this:

Should that person remain a Catholic just because of "OMG CULTURE!"?

It hardly matters "should." The fact is that so many do, even though you wouldn't see the same experience with most Protestant denominations.

It surely matters that the Catholic church has 2,000 years of continuity, and within many people's lifetimes, took steps to adapt to some aspects of modern life. It also means there is zero tradition of accepted schism where you go off and do your own thing, while that right is central to the Protestant tradition.

Still consider that most people like I described would leave. 1 in 3 Americans raised Catholic no longer is, so it's not like leaving is something unheard of or that everyone values "culture" that highly. I also strongly suspect that number is above 50% for where one parent is not Catholic.

Anyway another point is that I live in the Midwest, where Catholics and non-Catholics have long been quite integrated, and there is no type of "unique" Catholic culture. In addition to that (going back to my point above), mixed marriages are incredibly common, so even if someone from one of those is raised Catholic, they probably won't feel much of an unbreakable cultural connection. So essentially people identifying as Catholic for purely superficial reasons is rather rare here, and almost unheard of in what I'm most involved in.

What I find a little ironic about all this is that I believe PR was raised Methodist by a raised Catholic mother, meaning he should have more familiarity with people leaving the church.

[All Along The Watchtower]

What I find a little ironic about all this is that I believe PR was raised Methodist by a raised Catholic mother, meaning he should have more familiarity with people leaving the church.

The United Methodist Church has arguably more in common with the Catholic Church than it has with hipster evangelical Vineyard churches, but that's beside the point. In any case, I have Catholic relatives and friends who still find meaning in the Catholic Church's rituals and traditions, even though they don't agree with or follow the Church's teachings on any number of issues.

It has been pointed out to you that in places like Europe (and many locales in America, honestly) that people identify as "Catholic" or "Protestant" or "Jewish", etc. even though they are for all intents and purposes, secular or nominal in practice. Just because this supposedly isn't the case for people in the Upper Midwest (which I honestly am not so sure about, but whatever) doesn't mean that it isn't the case elsewhere. You don't have to be so narrowly provincial about this, or think that people are "stupid" because they find meaning in a religion other than personal religious belief.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

What I find a little ironic about all this is that I believe PR was raised Methodist by a raised Catholic mother, meaning he should have more familiarity with people leaving the church.

The United Methodist Church has arguably more in common with the Catholic Church than it has with hipster evangelical Vineyard churches

This is a United Methodist church: http://iamembrace.com

Also they ordain women.

but that's beside the point. In any case, I have Catholic relatives and friends who still find meaning in the Catholic Church's rituals and traditions, even though they don't agree with or follow the Church's teachings on any number of issues.

It has been pointed out to you that in places like Europe (and many locales in America, honestly) that people identify as "Catholic" or "Protestant" or "Jewish", etc. even though they are for all intents and purposes, secular or nominal in practice. Just because this supposedly isn't the case for people in the Upper Midwest (which I honestly am not so sure about, but whatever) doesn't mean that it isn't the case elsewhere. You don't have to be so narrowly provincial about this, or think that people are "stupid" because they find meaning in a religion other than personal religious belief.

I've said before that I would not have as much of an issue if such people didn't apply these same standards to other people who did not want to maintain a purely nominal affiliation.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

The United Methodist Church uses liturgical colors, BRTD.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The United Methodist Church uses liturgical colors, BRTD.

And the one I linked to has their own app available for iPhones and Androids.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

The United Methodist Church uses liturgical colors, BRTD.

And the one I linked to has their own app available for iPhones and Androids.

Which is, of course, a more important indicator.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The thing is, liturgical colors isn't something I find objectionable or offensive. Complimentarianism and clerical celibacy are.

[Simfan34]

BRTD, that Church is weird. It's like some Obama-government-funded, Lena-Dunham-inspired state-run community center. Secondly, what on earth distinguishes a show from a concert?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BRTD, that Church is weird. It's like some Obama-government-funded, Lena-Dunham-inspired state-run community center.

EXACTLY. That's the whole point. Especially the Lena Dunham part.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Size. You can't have a concert in someone's basement.

[Simfan34]

BRTD, that Church is weird. It's like some Obama-government-funded, Lena-Dunham-inspired state-run community center.

EXACTLY. That's the whole point. Especially the Lena Dunham part.

Well that's terrible. Completely revolting.

Secondly, what on earth distinguishes a show from a concert?

Size. You can't have a concert in someone's basement.

Sure you can. Is Dude Fest a concert, by that metric?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

The thing is, liturgical colors isn't something I find objectionable or offensive. Complimentarianism and clerical celibacy are.

Okay, but degree of theological and cultural similarity and difference isn't dictated by what you do or don't find offensive.

Incidentally, what's your beef with clerical celibacy? It's certainly not a concept I'm attached to (obviously, since I belong to a denomination in which not only are most priests married, but some are married to someone of the same sex), but I've never heard anybody describe it as offensive. An undue burden, yes, but not offensive. Certainly not to the same degree as complementarianism.

BRTD, that Church is weird. It's like some Obama-government-funded, Lena-Dunham-inspired state-run community center.

EXACTLY. That's the whole point. Especially the Lena Dunham part.

I'd consider roughly a third to half of the implications of that set of descriptors mutually exclusive with being a church in any meaningful sense, but that's just me.

I also like how Lena Dunham has become Simfan's bane; it just seems appropriate somehow.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Dude Fest is neither a concert nor show. As the name says, it is a fest.

It's a good thing Simfan did not go to my church during the series we were encouraged to tweet reactions on smartphones during the sermon. And BTW Lena Dunham would most likely give AWESOME sermons.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

She strikes me as an apatheist but if she was a Christian she'd be very funny and interesting. Certainly more so than most Catholic priests.

[Simfan34]

She strikes me as an apatheist but if she was a Christian she'd be very funny and interesting. Certainly more so than most Catholic priests.

That's like saying if Hitler was a Rabbi, he'd give a solid sermon. You can't divorce facts from reality.

Now, Sarah Silverman on the other hand... but the point in that that church appears to be a legitimately terrible place, and the coffee's probably atrocious too.

[patrick1]

She strikes me as an apatheist but if she was a Christian she'd be very funny and interesting. Certainly more so than most Catholic priests.

And how many priests have you met and had a conversation with BRTD? Many of the smartest men I have ever met have been priests. Certainly better educated and more worldly that you or me.  Many also have great senses of humor, some are dour and frustrated- much like the gen pop.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

The thing is, liturgical colors isn't something I find objectionable or offensive. Complimentarianism and clerical celibacy are.

Why is the celibacy of someone else, and I assume you're not trying to hook up with priests here, offensive to you?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The thing is, liturgical colors isn't something I find objectionable or offensive. Complimentarianism and clerical celibacy are.

Okay, but degree of theological and cultural similarity and difference isn't dictated by what you do or don't find offensive.

My point actually was just in response to him claiming it's closer to Catholicism than anything "hipster", note just how hipster that UMC church is. They even have their evening service starting at 6:05PM instead of 6PM just so they can call it "The 605" because that's South Dakota's area code! And the lead pastor is a hipster glasses wearing guy born in the 80s.

Incidentally, what's your beef with clerical celibacy? It's certainly not a concept I'm attached to (obviously, since I belong to a denomination in which not only are most priests married, but some are married to someone of the same sex), but I've never heard anybody describe it as offensive. An undue burden, yes, but not offensive. Certainly not to the same degree as complementarianism.

As much as complementarianism? No. But still ridiculous, not to mention counterproductive. The Catholic church is the largest denomination in America yet still is the only one with clergy shortage issues.

BRTD, that Church is weird. It's like some Obama-government-funded, Lena-Dunham-inspired state-run community center.

EXACTLY. That's the whole point. Especially the Lena Dunham part.

I'd consider roughly a third to half of the implications of that set of descriptors mutually exclusive with being a church in any meaningful sense, but that's just me.

I also like how Lena Dunham has become Simfan's bane; it just seems appropriate somehow.

What's wrong with a church for people who like Lena Dunham?

She strikes me as an apatheist but if she was a Christian she'd be very funny and interesting. Certainly more so than most Catholic priests.

And how many priests have you met and had a conversation with BRTD? Many of the smartest men I have ever met have been priests. Certainly better educated and more worldly that you or me.  Many also have great senses of humor, some are dour and frustrated- much like the gen pop.

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=163052.0

I doubt Catholic priests give sermons like this. Any that I see by looking up on YouTube tend to be kind of dry. In all fairness the same is true of Episcopalian.

I would like to apologize to BRTD, as he, indeed, is right, an open church like that is the way to proceed in the 21st century if a church expects to be a relevant institution. Lena Dunham, of course, is a very funny actress and such criticisms are unfounded. The homilies at the Catholic church I used to go to were interminably dull and tiresome. BRTD, do you know if there are any churches like yours I could go to in the NYC area?

When you brought up Sarah Silverman I was going to say you should probably at least mention someone funny, instead one of the least funny people in the media. But anyway check out this: http://northbrooklynvineyard.org

So hipster they meet in a bar!

Also this place in Queens is quite obvious as well: http://www.neighborhoodnyc.org Check out the article about it here.

[TJ in Oregon]

The Catholic church is the largest denomination in America yet still is the only one with clergy shortage issues.

We have standards.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Alright I'm kind of curious what others (like other Upper Midwesterners or demographic nuts) think of the following analysis (kind of combining a bunch of points I've made before all in one post): In Minnesota and North Dakota most Catholics come from German ancestry, but we all know that not all Germans are Catholic, and Germans are so spread out the Midwest (it's kind of the default ethnic background) that being a German Catholic doesn't come with some type of deep identity as a result, even the really ethnically German areas like New Ulm and the non-suburban parts of Carver County have as many Protestants as Catholics, the only Catholic majority areas are some really isolated and kind of creepy rural areas and even those areas have non-negligible Lutheran minorities. In addition most Midwesterners are of some mixed background, it's quite rare to meet anyone who is 100% anything (at least amongst whites) and even someone who is 100% German is likely to have some mixed Catholic/Lutheran marriage somewhere in their ancestry considering how common those are here, even if you find someone whose entire extended family was raised Catholic there's almost certainly going to be some convert somewhere. So this feeling might be less if you don't have an essentially all Catholic family. Furthermore the idea of the Catholic church and Catholic schools being the center of an ethnic community doesn't really happen because, well we don't have "ethnic" neighborhoods, we have white and minority neighborhoods (and I guess the heavily Jewish area around St. Louis Park and southwest Minneapolis, but even this place is nowhere near majority Jewish). The closest thing to this type of working class neighborhood is the mostly Scandinavian and Eastern European Northeast Minneapolis community (and being Scandinavian earned the nickname "Nordeast") and even this is fading thanks to youngs attracted by the cheap rent (I know a lot of people who live there, and of course they don't identify by religion or ethnicity, but by subculture). And because our education system is so renowned and public schools aren't held in low regard, Catholic schools aren't the default option for anyone except people with lots of money/parents who are like Rick Santorum. We have some Catholic colleges that are actually pretty highly held schools academically, but because of this they dilute plenty of non-Catholic students, thus diluting the Catholic identity of them and in the case of University of St. Thomas at least to the point of the affiliation being little more than purely nominal and in the name (kind of like how no one thinks of Duke as being a Methodist school today.)

So essentially the factors leading to Catholicism solely as an identity are just rather weak here. Does that make sense? I'd say that Lutheran identity is more common here, especially since that's seen as something uniquely Midwestern.

[afleitch]

The Catholic church is the largest denomination in America yet still is the only one with clergy shortage issues.

We have standards.

I'm afraid recent events in America, Ireland and elsewhere show that that isn't the case.