is Rick Santorum more or less objectionable because he is a Roman Catholic?

[patrick1]

Ooh, good question. I think his misuse of Catholicism is a particularly grating quality, which would be impossible without him being Catholic, so more.

(margin found!)

How's he misusing it? The things about him people find so objectionable are just due to him following the church's actual teachings and beliefs.

More, because I see him as a false prophet merely claiming to be Catholic to fool uneducated voters.

The guy goes to Latin Mass, you can't get much more purely Catholic than that. Certainly not something a closet Protestant would do. And who is he fooling? I can't see anyone willing to vote for Santorum but wouldn't be willing to do so if he was Protestant, but plus Catholicism obviously had next to no effect and where his support in the primary came from.

I voted more because what his abhorrent policies come from a very hierarchical and organized organization. Conservative evangelicals are fractured and often fight with things amongst themselves.

To me it comes down to a matter of priorities in his faith.  Growing up the main dictum(s) I was taught was the Great Commandment and The New Commandment. His more strident criticisms and condemnations are misplaced, wrong and at odds with the aforementioned articles.  They are not a message of inclusion but exclusion. Of course, you have many in the college who put forth the same positions. It is one thing to believe something to be sin- it is quite another to de-humanize those who you think engage in it.

[patrick1]

Ooh, good question. I think his misuse of Catholicism is a particularly grating quality, which would be impossible without him being Catholic, so more.

(margin found!)

How's he misusing it? The things about him people find so objectionable are just due to him following the church's actual teachings and beliefs.

More, because I see him as a false prophet merely claiming to be Catholic to fool uneducated voters.

The guy goes to Latin Mass, you can't get much more purely Catholic than that. Certainly not something a closet Protestant would do. And who is he fooling? I can't see anyone willing to vote for Santorum but wouldn't be willing to do so if he was Protestant, but plus Catholicism obviously had next to no effect and where his support in the primary came from.

I voted more because what his abhorrent policies come from a very hierarchical and organized organization. Conservative evangelicals are fractured and often fight with things amongst themselves.

To me it comes down to a matter of priorities in his faith.  Growing up the main dictum(s) I was taught was the Great Commandment and The New Commandment. His more strident criticisms and condemnations are misplaced, wrong and at odds with the aforementioned articles.  They are not a message of inclusion but exclusion. Of course, you have many in the college who put forth the same positions. It is one thing to believe something to be sin- it is quite another to de-humanize those who you think engage in it.

OK but what is the Catholic hierarchy and leadership prioritizing? Like it or not, Santorum is more within their worldview than any liberal is.

Catholicism is a religion of love, compassion, and social obligations. Santorum would be a nasty individual no matter what faith tradition he identified with.

It's kind of odd seeing a gay say this.

I agree with the second sentence though.

My partner's extended family is conservative Catholic. And with few exceptions, they are accepting of me, even though they don't accept SSM. Through my partner's life and that of some of the nuns' organizations I see a positive community-minded faith that reminds me of some of what I learned in Hebrew School. It's a part of the faith that is only sometimes conveyed by the leadership, which will speak out against war and in favor of caring for the poor one week and then declare a line in the sand on gay rights the next.

Unfortunately as noted above the priorities lately have radically changed. When was Paul Ryan condemned by the leadership (not a group of rogue nuns) for his economic plans as much as pro-choice and pro-gay marriage politicians have been?

To be honest here's the root problem here for me: It strikes me as a little absurd to say that Catholicism is generally OK and good and it's just some people like Santorum and the leadership who are ruining it but evangelical Protestantism is fundamentally rotten for rather obvious reasons.

my question is this:
Has Santorum mended the catholic-protestant divide that has traditionally existed?

That hasn't been a major factor in anything for around 50 years now.

BRTD, you seem naturally, on this forum at least, to be a judgmental and prejudiced person- quick to snap decisions. It does not shock me that you would be more open to hear what you find objectionable than the actual good that is done. Listen, I am in no position to defend the Catholic Church. There were deep moral failings within the church that were, in my opinion, more serious than their stances on gay rights or contraception. However, the Church and its members have done tremendous work in the developing world, in education, against poverty, against war and a voice for immigrants and the undocumented.  It would be wise and better for you to fill your easel with a more varied set of equipment.

[patrick1]

Let it go, that particular family anecdote was a long time ago. Mistrust and enmity went both ways. As Torie mentioned there was a time that Catholics were seen as insufficiently patriotic by many. This was around a time that all of my forebears including the women were in the Marine Corps or Army fighting for it. Eventually you have to accept what happened as past and go forward.
The Jesuits are not hatching any conspiracies to mass convert you. By doctrine, Baptism is a sacrament and is meant to hold an eternal quality. Likewise with marriage. Now you can choose to be offended your whole life by these things or just accept that you disagree .  I am not very religious, atm at least, but it does seem that you would have a more fulfilling faith by looking at your own beliefs more and how you treat others than to shoot off constantly on how you disagree with something else. As a general rule, it is far better to be for something than against something.
Lastly, a lot of things happen by accident of birth. I didn't ask to be an American either. The beauty here is that you can either accept or reject it.  I hope all is well and you enjoy your Sundays.

[patrick1]

I'm having a tough time following this argument. What I'm seeming to gather from it is that BRTD hates Catholics because many years earlier, he was told that Catholics might complain about Tim Pawlenty because of his conversion away from the Church? This gets stranger and stranger as we wander into t he deeper caverns of his mind.

No, no, no. He hates Catholics because one set of his grandparents were upset that his mom got married outside the church or something. Everything else is just a series of bizarre anecdotes that hinge off of that.  Mind you this is from a supposed sola scriptura believer who self admittedly hasn't read the bible, but will troll Catholic encyclicals to cherry pick points of arguments for an online forum.

[patrick1]

I'm having a tough time following this argument. What I'm seeming to gather from it is that BRTD hates Catholics because many years earlier, he was told that Catholics might complain about Tim Pawlenty because of his conversion away from the Church? This gets stranger and stranger as we wander into t he deeper caverns of his mind.

Welcome to Arguing with BRTD: Where his logic almost never makes sense, you get bombarded with ridiculous personal accounts from his strange life and you leave the argument accomplishing nothing at all.

It is actually worse than talking to BushOk.  Jeff will at least acknowledge what you say and do something exactly the opposite. Zach just completely ignores everything and will take one sentence out of context and then continue having a conversation with himself.  Witness Oakvales post about BRTD using anecdotes and BRTD responds to that post with something about Supersoulty and Tim Pawlenty.  If I didnt know better that would be pretty funny trolling.

[patrick1]

Here's something that I think might result in some extreme Values Dissonance: in my whole subculture and scene, things like your native culture and traditions are not supposed to matter. Because one you get involved with the subculture, THAT becomes your culture. Where you came from is washed away. Even if you were born into some specialized ethnic community, that is not what you "belong" to anymore. Race, ethnicity and background no longer matter. You know my whole neutral hoodie/band shirt/jeans outfit? People wear that EVERYWHERE. You can go to a show in Europe or even South Africa and people will be dressed the exact same way. And it helps that it's neutral and not tied to any type of region or culture and also doesn't carry any racial or class connotations, etc. You know my dislike of cliques and fraternities? It's pretty much based on the same type of thinking. Now that's not to say all sorts of categories within that culture develop (as this makes clear), but it does mean that one doesn't attach themselves to an ethnic identity anymore, and that makes any type of purely nominal denominational affiliation meaningless. It's part of a greater stream of acceptability and equality, similar to Galatians 3:28, just change "Christ Jesus" to "punk/hardcore/indie/emo".

What this does mean is that if someone is a Christian (and mind you, atheism/agnosticism is closer to the norm), they'll probably identify as just "Christian" (or something like "Christ follower") and if they have a church it'll be something neutral in terms of race and ethnic connotations. So essentially that means no Catholics, at least for that reason mentioned above. And to actually be a Catholic, this means basically accepting things like patriarchism and this:

It also means there is zero tradition of accepted schism where you go off and do your own thing, while that right is central to the Protestant tradition.

which run COMPLETELY afoul to the acceptable cultural mores. The result? If you're involved you won't be Catholic, and if you're really in deep in the scene it's not likely you'll know someone in it whose Catholic, and thus will not be familiar with someone clinging to denominational affiliation based on culture and tradition alone. Such a premise becomes very alien and difficult to comprehend because the fact is, you just don't think that way. And people who are Christian are going to want a similar style and attitude, race, gender and ethnicity are meaningless, Christ is open to EVERYONE, and that means no type of "ethnic" practices. There are some other factors involved, including the basic fact that your typical Catholic church is going to be full of mostly just olds on any given Sunday, but that's the jist of the whole thing.

Now before someone points out that this is rather hypocritical for something that appeals pretty much only to middle to upper class white people, well yes, that's true. But it should at least give some insight into the mindset involved. So when PR is saying I have no respect for history, tradition and culture, well perhaps, but one must realize that's because I'm from somewhere where the rule is to NOT do that.

Hahahaha, are you quite sure you want to use this as an argument against the Catholic Church? 

[patrick1]

You were saying you could go to a show anywhere. Well I think people can go to a Mass anywhere on the globe and worship side by side with every age, gender and classes under the same roof. Catholic literally means universal. So your jeans and hoodie EVERYWHERE really isnt saying much

You and your niche sub-culture does not place a high value on tradition. Which is fine. However, ironically there does seem to be a high level of conformity. Which is rather sad.

[patrick1]

You know my whole neutral hoodie/band shirt/jeans outfit? People wear that EVERYWHERE. You can go to a show in Europe or even South Africa and people will be dressed the exact same way.

I spent many years going to a scene where everyone dressed the exact same way.....


it was Catholic school

[patrick1]

I used to wear my clip on tie too loose in grade school, done ironically of course.

[patrick1]

She strikes me as an apatheist but if she was a Christian she'd be very funny and interesting. Certainly more so than most Catholic priests.

And how many priests have you met and had a conversation with BRTD? Many of the smartest men I have ever met have been priests. Certainly better educated and more worldly that you or me.  Many also have great senses of humor, some are dour and frustrated- much like the gen pop.