Pennsylvanians: booze in the supermarket?

[angus]

Pennsylvaniafolk, y'all probably know that you gotta buy booze before nine.  Unless it's Sunday, when you gotta buy it before five.  And you have to go to special stores because the state has a monopoly on its revenues.  I found all this out the hard way when I moved to the Keystone State six months ago.  There's much news lately about "privatizing" liquor sales.  Corbett, for example, has proposed a budget that includes allowing regular stores to sell booze.  Polls show that most consumers support this.  Several groups oppose it, including the Malt Beverage Distributors Association of Pennsylvania.

What say you?

[traininthedistance]

Liquor sales are definitely one thing that I agree should be privatized and de-regulated.  Though of course Pennsylvania should try to get some value from their "state stores" (wine and liquor) instead of just fobbing the leases, real estate, stock etc. off as a windfall.

And of course PA has the extra insanity that not only are wine and liquor only available from state-run stores (this is not that uncommon in the US), but anything more than a six-pack of beer (which you can sometimes get at pizza places and the like, but it can be a PITA) has to be a separate "package store".  So the "package stores", which are private, have this weird monopoly niche they get to exploit.  I'm guessing the Malt Beverage Distributors are representing the package stores, they'd be the big losers in de-regulation. 

Actually, it's possible that the state of Pennsylvania might be a loser as well, if they make a profit off of their wine and liquor business.  So if I was super-concerned about the budget I might hesitate on this.  But breaking the odd monopoly of the package stores is a must-do, and I'd lean towards ending the state store monopoly as well, since it means there are many types of booze you can't get in PA.

Mind you, also, that "privatizing" liquor sales does not necessarily mean deregulating them completely.  NJ has private liquor stores, but they also have strict limits on what can be sold in supermarkets: pretty much just beer, and not at all hours.

[Keystone Phil]

It should be obvious where I stand on this. Hilarious that Corbett took this long to take this position but that's a whole different story.

[fezzyfestoon]

Praise the beer gods! What great news! The alcohol laws here are absolutely insane.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

As awful as Corbett is, I will actually side with him on this one issue.

[DemPGH]

Oppose all of his privatization plans, but this on these grounds (and I'm going to avoid getting into all the other rotten stuff he has tried to do):

1) Selection: Nearby is a Premium Store from which I just got back a little while ago, actually, becoming "envined" for the weekend. There is so much selection there that it's like walking into a mall just for booze. I don't do hard liquor, but I love wine, really love it, and they have it grouped off by country. By country. I've found some outstanding domestics, like Hahn Cabernet (ivory label with a rooster sketch), and some good imports, like some Rioja labels and once in a while a Sangiovese. Love the selection, and it's allowed me to experiment a great deal. That's not even including their specialty wines that come in and out. So if we ram it into grocery stores, will I get the same selection? Not hardly. Over in Ohio there's a huge Target that I've been to a few times - yes, they have wine, but it's a pathetic, paltry selection.

2) Staff: The staff in the aforementioned Premium Store is generally knowledgable - there is one guy in particular with whom I like to compare notes. Will I get that in a grocery store? Hell no. There won't even be anyone around, let alone someone who knows about wine or winemaking.

3) Unions: Corbett is only trying to bust a union. And I oppose that on general principle.

4) I'm used to it: I grew up in PA, so I am used to the "wine store" thing. Traininthedistance is right about the beer deal - that's annoying, but I like my wine stores.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

To be fair, it's not like they're getting rid of liquor stores. Plus, people getting alcohol from the supermarket probably aren't looking for fine wines or liquors, but instead for some crap like Miller Lite. However, DemPGH does remind me that Corbett most likely has an ulterior motive.

[Grumpier Than Thou]

Option 2

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

DemPGH, down here in South Carolina, we have supermarkets freely selling beer and wine, but we still have a few specialty stores that cater to those with refined tastes.  It's not an either/or proposition, so your points 1 and 2 aren't really that significant.  It may mean that you will have fewer full service shops than you do now or that the prices on the snooty stuff that the educated elites favor will go up once it no longer subsidized by sales of the cheap stuff to the uneducated masses, but I don't see those as being de facto bad.

[minionofmidas]

Bavaria bans the takeaway purchase of beer (not hard liquor) after I think 9 pm.

This is to educate people to go to the pub and drink local produce, instead of getting the big bottled brands at the supermarket.

[angus]

Bavaria bans the takeaway purchase of beer (not hard liquor) after I think 9 pm.

This is to educate people to go to the pub and drink local produce, instead of getting the big bottled brands at the supermarket.

Seems like an odd, or half-assed way to do it. 

I'm not sure what the rationale is behind the laws here.

Remember when I lived in Columbus, MS I posted on some of the bizarre laws there.  One of the strangest was that stores were only allowed to sell room-temperature beer in neighboring Starkville.  You could buy all the beer you wanted to at any supermarket, convenience store, liquor store, etc., that you could afford, but it was always room temperature.  In Columbus the beer was cold, but not in Starkville.  (There's a patchwork quilt of laws in the US regarding sales of alcohol, firearms, etc., that vary not only by state but by county as well.)  Some clever resident of that county took it to the state supreme court and the court ruled that the constitution of the Hospitality State did not allow county commissioners to regulate the temperature at which beer could be sold.  End of the hot beer.  This was a good thing, because you know how we gringos like our beer cold!

[DemPGH]

DemPGH, down here in South Carolina, we have supermarkets freely selling beer and wine, but we still have a few specialty stores that cater to those with refined tastes.  It's not an either/or proposition, so your points 1 and 2 aren't really that significant.  It may mean that you will have fewer full service shops than you do now or that the prices on the snooty stuff that the educated elites favor will go up once it no longer subsidized by sales of the cheap stuff to the uneducated masses, but I don't see those as being de facto bad.

See, to me, what you're doing is apologizing for an inferior, hypothetical situation to the reality that exists at the present. And I do think prices going up on my Cabernet Sauvignon is a bad deal, and that the state will lose money on this deal makes it bad as well. As well, if the state stores become private specialty stores, the staff will undoubtedly lose benefit packages and so forth, and if they refuse, which they should refuse, then the private ownership can just shut down. That whole process is ultimately racketeering in my book, and it's disgusting.

I would be willing to compromise, though, and I don't see why it can't be done: 1) Keep the stores or even reduce them and let the state stores compete with the grocery stores or your speciality stores (Corbett does not even want to do that); 2) Corbett is making this about getting your darn beer at Wal-Mart! Fine. Let Wal-Mart sell Coors or Miller Lite or whatever the folks who guzzle it by the case like. Stock local and national brands. No problem with that, but I want to keep my state stores.

I figured the state stores would be privatized by now, actually, and I'm pleased that they are not. We in PA only have to hold him off a little longer, because he's trying to do this to the lottery, the turnpike system, and the university system. Who knows. We'll see.

[Franzl]

Why do you need the state to sell alcohol to you? There are lots of specialty stores to buy beer, wine and liquor in places where the state does not take part in the alcohol business.

[DemPGH]

Why do you need the state to sell alcohol to you? There are lots of specialty stores to buy beer, wine and liquor in places where the state does not take part in the alcohol business.

It's not about that. That's a right wing non sequitur. It's about maintaining something that works rather than going off in some other direction where the state loses money, we lose out on a one-stop place for large selection, we have price hikes (like I hear happened in WA), and possibly job losses. Every once in a while the status quo is not a bad choice.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Just steal stuff from your father's liquor cabinet like a normal person. I don't see what the big deal is here.

[Franzl]

Why do you need the state to sell alcohol to you? There are lots of specialty stores to buy beer, wine and liquor in places where the state does not take part in the alcohol business.

It's not about that. That's a right wing non sequitur. It's about maintaining something that works rather than going off in some other direction where the state loses money, we lose out on a one-stop place for large selection, we have price hikes (like I hear happened in WA), and possibly job losses. Every once in a while the status quo is not a bad choice.

I can't speak with certainty about Pennsylvania, but it's never been my experience that state sold alcohol was cheaper than privately sold alcohol.

[traininthedistance]

1) Selection: Nearby is a Premium Store from which I just got back a little while ago, actually, becoming "envined" for the weekend. There is so much selection there that it's like walking into a mall just for booze. I don't do hard liquor, but I love wine, really love it, and they have it grouped off by country. By country. I've found some outstanding domestics, like Hahn Cabernet (ivory label with a rooster sketch), and some good imports, like some Rioja labels and once in a while a Sangiovese. Love the selection, and it's allowed me to experiment a great deal. That's not even including their specialty wines that come in and out. So if we ram it into grocery stores, will I get the same selection? Not hardly. Over in Ohio there's a huge Target that I've been to a few times - yes, they have wine, but it's a pathetic, paltry selection.

I'm not sure I'd be trumpeting "selection" as a perk of the state store system.  I know that, at least for hard liquor, whatever doesn't get stocked in the state store system is not allowed to be sold in Pennsylvania, which means that there are all sorts of obscure and interesting things that you can get in other states but not in PA.  I remember that there was this froo-froo cocktail bar I went to a couple of times in Philly that has all sorts of exotic ingredients they can only serve by basically smuggling them across state lines. 

If the state store monopoly is broken, that doesn't necessarily mean all the specialty wine and liquor stores (and their selection) will go away.  They still exist in other states, and the high-end ones have even more options (and good staff as well).

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

FWIW, the whole "lack of selection" argument is the same one used in Minnesota every time someone proposes allowing grocery stores or gas stations to sell anything above 3.2 beer (or the argument this would cause supermarkets to focus on alcohol and stock less of an assortment of food items) though it's not that big of a deal since we have plenty of specialty stores anyway. I have a tough time believing that the Pennsylvania state stores sell as much variety as these places, especially one that has lots of locked up scotch bottles that sometimes sell for above $500. The only problem of course is that they're all closed on Sundays, something that will probably get changed eventually, but who knows when that is.

[traininthedistance]

Why do you need the state to sell alcohol to you? There are lots of specialty stores to buy beer, wine and liquor in places where the state does not take part in the alcohol business.

It's not about that. That's a right wing non sequitur. It's about maintaining something that works rather than going off in some other direction where the state loses money, we lose out on a one-stop place for large selection, we have price hikes (like I hear happened in WA), and possibly job losses. Every once in a while the status quo is not a bad choice.

I can't speak with certainty about Pennsylvania, but it's never been my experience that state sold alcohol was cheaper than privately sold alcohol.

Actually, the state stores have pretty good prices- that's one point (probably the biggest point) in their favor. 

[fezzyfestoon]

In North Carolina where all liquor was sold by the state, they had great prices. The ABC was like a normal liquor store in Jersey, just without beer. That you could get for cheap anywhere, including gas stations, it fantastic. Here, you can't buy beer other than at a distributor or a bar. I drink a lot of beer, so I'd like the state to sell it to me. In bars it's like $12 for basic 6-pack and the distributors aren't great either. An there aren't enough. I don't wanna walk like 10 blocks with two cases of beer, that's just plain unwieldy.

[angus]

Why do you need the state to sell alcohol to you? There are lots of specialty stores to buy beer, wine and liquor in places where the state does not take part in the alcohol business.

you don't.  Unless, of course, you're in New Hampshire.  Or Canada.  But in those jurisdictions it's a fairly decent racket because the money goes gets earmarked for certain programs, and the prices aren't terrible.  I do not think that is the case in the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board stores.

In general, it is not the case that anyone needs the state to sell him alcohol.  Certainly that has not been the case in most of the jurisdictions in which I have lived.  Booze laws vary greatly by state.  In Iowa, for example, it is perfectly legal for you to give your child a drink of champagne on his fifth birthday.  In Wyoming, however, it is illegal for anyone under the age of 21 to consume any alcohol under any circumstance.  I'm not sure about Pennsylvania.  It has for several years been my tradition to give my son a little flute of bubbly on his birthday, but I really should investigate the legal ramifications of that since I live in PA now.

[Keystone Phil]

The only real reason why Dems here oppose it is because it's seen as "UNION BUSTIN'!!!" and too many people benefit from ridiculously cushy state jobs. This argument that people want "experts" responsible for answering their alcohol/liquor questions while shopping makes me chuckle. Those speciality stores could still exist. Feel free to patronize those establishments.

[Lief 🗽]

Republican governor wants to privatize a well-run state-owned system so that the state receives less revenue and union jobs are lost? What a shocker.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

From what I've heard from Pennsylvanians including plenty of liberals, it's hardly "well run".

[DemPGH]

Train and BRTD:

Very good arguments. I would drop some of my opposition if I knew that to some reasonable measure the status quo on this particular thing would be maintained - as with prices, or if availability / selection would actually increase (great!). But I'm leery. I just don't completely trust the privatization method and the free market to do that. I figure those things will increase instability with the here-today-gone-tomorrow model of business, which is why I favor regulations. And I think there are still a few aspects of life that could be kept insulated from the business model.

Republican governor wants to privatize a well-run state-owned system so that the state receives less revenue and union jobs are lost? What a shocker.

In a nutshell.