Vatican City 2013 papal election

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

On gay marriage;

"Let's not be naive, we're not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God."

So it's the devils will in his eyes basically. I don't care what he eats, what he drives, where he lives or what kind words he throws at the poor. It still makes him an arse.

It obviously does, and there weren't really any realistic options of whom that isn't true. One can, however, be more or less of an arse than all the other arses. Being more of an arse than Schönborn but less of an arse than practically every other realistic contender, Francis is, for me, a source of extremely tentative and skittish relative optimism.

It's not only that. He had ties to the Argentine military dictatorship too which is disturbing. He was accused of hiding political prisoners of the state from human rights inspectors in his holiday home. That is quite frightening.

That...yes, actually, that's distinctly unnerving.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

I'm optimistic.

That said, I don't think his pontificate will be as long as Benedict's was. Francis doesn't exactly look good for his age. I guess that means we could see a lot of familiar names bandied about for the next conclave. Scherer and Ouellet, for example, will still be "young enough" to be contenders.

Also, I guess we won't be looking at a pope with a very flashy sense of dress...

[Dereich]

The odds for Bergoglio were about 25-1. I'm sure the odds for choosing the name Francis were even lower. Lots of people have lost money today.

[ilikeverin]

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[MaxQue]

On gay marriage;

"Let's not be naive, we're not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God."

So it's the devils will in his eyes basically. I don't care what he eats, what he drives, where he lives or what kind words he throws at the poor. It still makes him an arse.

It obviously does, and there weren't really any realistic options of whom that isn't true. One can, however, be more or less of an arse than all the other arses. Being more of an arse than Schönborn but less of an arse than practically every other realistic contender, Francis is, for me, a source of extremely tentative and skittish relative optimism.

It's not only that. He had ties to the Argentine military dictatorship too which is disturbing. He was accused of hiding political prisoners of the state from human rights inspectors in his holiday home. That is quite frightening.

That...yes, actually, that's distinctly unnerving.

At the same time, I wouldn't believe those things without proofs. It's so easy to throw accusations like that to dirty someone, especially with the Church being one of the main opponents to Kirchner.

[Old Man Svensson]

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Okay, that I like. Precisely what the Catholic Church needs now is someone to speak against hypocrites. Here's hoping he just keeps it up.

[Silent Hunter]

The odds for Bergoglio were about 25-1. I'm sure the odds for choosing the name Francis were even lower. Lots of people have lost money today.

Except the bookmakers.

Surprise choice that, we'll have to see how things go.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

On gay marriage;

"Let's not be naive, we're not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God."

So it's the devils will in his eyes basically. I don't care what he eats, what he drives, where he lives or what kind words he throws at the poor. It still makes him an arse.

It obviously does, and there weren't really any realistic options of whom that isn't true. One can, however, be more or less of an arse than all the other arses. Being more of an arse than Schönborn but less of an arse than practically every other realistic contender, Francis is, for me, a source of extremely tentative and skittish relative optimism.

It's not only that. He had ties to the Argentine military dictatorship too which is disturbing. He was accused of hiding political prisoners of the state from human rights inspectors in his holiday home. That is quite frightening.

That...yes, actually, that's distinctly unnerving.

At the same time, I wouldn't believe those things without proofs. It's so easy to throw accusations like that to dirty someone, especially with the Church being one of the main opponents to Kirchner.

Yes, doing more reading, it seems like the range of opinions on Francis's role during the military dictatorship is pretty broad. One priest blames him for selling him out to the junta but he's also credited with saving the same priest's life (and another's) a few months later. Some people claim he also hid people from the junta. What's clear, though, is that he doesn't exactly seem to have been a profile in courage at that time.

[Antonio the Sixth]

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Okay, that I like. Precisely what the Catholic Church needs now is someone to speak against hypocrites. Here's hoping he just keeps it up.

Yeah, I've heard about this. This is very important indeed.

[MaxQue]

On gay marriage;

"Let's not be naive, we're not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God."

So it's the devils will in his eyes basically. I don't care what he eats, what he drives, where he lives or what kind words he throws at the poor. It still makes him an arse.

It obviously does, and there weren't really any realistic options of whom that isn't true. One can, however, be more or less of an arse than all the other arses. Being more of an arse than Schönborn but less of an arse than practically every other realistic contender, Francis is, for me, a source of extremely tentative and skittish relative optimism.

It's not only that. He had ties to the Argentine military dictatorship too which is disturbing. He was accused of hiding political prisoners of the state from human rights inspectors in his holiday home. That is quite frightening.

That...yes, actually, that's distinctly unnerving.

At the same time, I wouldn't believe those things without proofs. It's so easy to throw accusations like that to dirty someone, especially with the Church being one of the main opponents to Kirchner.

Yes, doing more reading, it seems like the range of opinions on Francis's role during the military dictatorship is pretty broad. One priest blames him for selling him out to the junta but he's also credited with saving the same priest's life (and another's) a few months later. Some people claim he also hid people from the junta. What's clear, though, is that he doesn't exactly seem to have been a profile in courage at that time.

Well, I doubt most posters here would have tried to clearly oppose the junta. Most people have a survival instinct and a desire to not be tortured.

[RodPresident]

Francis name isn't only because Saint Francis of Assisi, but also due to Saint Francis Xavier, one of founders of Jesuit order and a missionary to Eastern Asia. Bergoglio should put emphasis into going to other side of the world.
He went to that Conclave with many voters from 2005 and he repeated his performance at General Congregations. He's a good fit with Church needs now. A good manager without being a Curialist and a person who can get people's support with social focus. The only no is that he's somewhat older and he's linked to Communione and Liberazione. Scola people accepted him and Sandri brought Curia votes. Maybe Sandri will be new Secretary of State, although I'd like a reformer like Schönborn or O'Malley.

[afleitch]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/13/us-pope-succession-bergoglio-idUSBRE92C15X20130313

'Bergoglio's career success coincided with the bloody 1976-1983 military dictatorship, during which up to 30,000 suspected leftists were kidnapped and killed -- which prompted sharp questions about his role.

The most well-known episode relates to the abduction of two Jesuits whom the military government secretly jailed for their work in poor neighborhoods.

According to "The Silence," a book written by journalist Horacio Verbitsky, Bergoglio withdrew his order's protection of the two men after they refused to quit visiting the slums, which ultimately paved the way for their capture.

Verbitsky's book is based on statements by Orlando Yorio, one of the kidnapped Jesuits, before he died of natural causes in 2000. Both of the abducted clergymen suffered five months of imprisonment.'

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whvoFn-rLU4

The announcement of "Habemus Papam" was more interesting in 2005; today's announcement failed to meet the "chill up your spine" criteria I have for most important events.

[Famous Mortimer]

I think he's very likely to do away with mandatory celibacy since he's from Latin America where hardly any priests take that vow seriously.

[Paleobrazilian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whvoFn-rLU4

The announcement of "Habemus Papam" was more interesting in 2005; today's announcement failed to meet the "chill up your spine" criteria I have for most important events.

That was the only big negative tonight, lol. Tauran seemed to be in pain or something like that, he was moving his head on that awkward way, and really ran rhrough the speech, forgeting to let a bit of time for the people there to shout and rejoice.

Now talking about the pick...

1- The Vaticanists will be kicking themselves once again for totally missing Bergoglio. In 2005 he was a footnote, and went on to be the strongest alternative to Ratzinger. It is said that he asked his colleagues to stop voting for him, but maybe he just did that to allow a quick resolution for the conclave, as Benedict XVI's election was basically inevitable. This time, he was said to be a kingmaker, but in the end he became the king himself...

2 While most Vaticanists missed Bergoglio, one part-time Vaticanist, part-time political pundit from Brazil called Geraon Camarotti called it right. He said the Brazililian Cardinals not named Scherer would NOT vote for Scherer - Braz de Aviz and Damasceno specially disliked him. They wanted a "Latin-american alternative" to Scherer, and they were not alone. According to Camarotti, the candidacy of Bergoglio was built by Cardinal Maradiaga, a papabile himself. In the end the kingmaker became the Pope, and the papabile was the kingmaker.

3- I believe the winning coalition was composed by Latin-american Cardinals first, who probably united with African and Asian Cardinals. That would have delivered some 30-40 votes to Francis off the bat. From then on, he must have gained support from the American delegation at first, as they saw the opening for a Pan-american Pope. Then the less conservative faction of the Curia and from the European Cardinals (led by Schönborn and probably Bertone) stepped in and put him over the top.

4- The choice of "Francis" was a shock, as many felt the name of St. Francis of Assissi was "too holly" to be brought back by a Pope. But it definitely fits him, as he fits the legacy of St. Francis of Assissi and of St. Francis Xavier quite well.

5- He's not only the first jesuit Pope ever, he's also the first Pope from a religious order in three centuries. That is something that has to be noted.

6- His Pontificate will probably not be that long, and he definitely knows that. He seems to be extremely humble, to a point that may bother some Cardinals and curialists. But he does seem to be the kind of Pope that could start big changes, like John XXIII. The fact that he prayed Lord's Prayer and Ave Maria with the pilgrims in Italian before praying Urbi et Orbi tells a lot. The fact that he stood in silence to let the Catholics pray for him was very telling as well.

7- I'm predicting a John XXIII-styled papacy. Quite short (it'd be a blessing if he goes strong beyond 10 years), but bringing lots of change. Maybe going totally bold and calling Council Vatican III, maybe doing what should have done long ago, implementing collegiality as recomended by Council Vatican II - empowering the College of Cardinals and the Curia to decide some matters that today are left exclusively to the Pope; giving Bishops and Archbishops more power in their territorry. He could also diminish the Curia.

9- It'll be important to see how many curialists will be brought back to their old jobs by Pope Francis - many changes would signal the need for a big cleanup. Also important will be his first Cardinal-creating consistory, which will be very telling. He'll probably create some 15 new Cardinals around early-mid 2014, and I expect him to create many Cardinals from the Third World, reducing the weight of the European and specially of the Italian delegation. I also feel less second-tier curialists will become Cardinals (something Benedict XVI used to do).

10- I'm loving Pope Francis. I think he'll do a great job. He has my prayers.

[DolphMcCrungus]

Why are some of you considering him a bad choice because he's not a supporter of gay marriage? He's the head of the Catholic Church for crying out loud.

[Antonio the Sixth]

6- His Pontificate will probably not be that long, and he definitely knows that. He seems to be extremely humble, to a point that may bother some Cardinals and curialists. But he does seem to be the kind of Pope that could start big changes, like John XXIII. The fact that he prayed Lord's Prayer and Ave Maria with the pilgrims in Italian before praying Urbi et Orbi tells a lot. The fact that he stood in silence to let the Catholics pray for him was very telling as well.

7- I'm predicting a John XXIII-styled papacy. Quite short (it'd be a blessing if he goes strong beyond 10 years), but bringing lots of change. Maybe going totally bold and calling Council Vatican III, maybe doing what should have done long ago, implementing collegiality as recomended by Council Vatican II - empowering the College of Cardinals and the Curia to decide some matters that today are left exclusively to the Pope; giving Bishops and Archbishops more power in their territorry. He could also diminish the Curia.

9- It'll be important to see how many curialists will be brought back to their old jobs by Pope Francis - many changes would signal the need for a big cleanup. Also important will be his first Cardinal-creating consistory, which will be very telling. He'll probably create some 15 new Cardinals around early-mid 2014, and I expect him to create many Cardinals from the Third World, reducing the weight of the European and specially of the Italian delegation. I also feel less second-tier curialists will become Cardinals (something Benedict XVI used to do).

I'm really hoping you are right.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

I think he's very likely to do away with mandatory celibacy since he's from Latin America where hardly any priests take that vow seriously.

That would be good for the church.

[RodPresident]

I'm watching Globo News now. There's a program with Camarotti and Ariel Palacios, a correspondent in Buenos Aires.

[retromike22]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whvoFn-rLU4

The announcement of "Habemus Papam" was more interesting in 2005; today's announcement failed to meet the "chill up your spine" criteria I have for most important events.

That was the only big negative tonight, lol. Tauran seemed to be in pain or something like that, he was moving his head on that awkward way, and really ran rhrough the speech, forgeting to let a bit of time for the people there to shout and rejoice.

Tauran has Parkinson's disease.

[RodPresident]

Pope Francis had Cardinal Hummes and Cardinal Sandri at his side. A message?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Pope Francis had Cardinal Hummes and Cardinal Sandri at his side. A message?

Where do those two stand?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Pope Francis had Cardinal Hummes and Cardinal Sandri at his side. A message?

Where do those two stand?

Hummes is actually excellent for the most part. I don't know as much about Sandri, but he's supposedly a very good diplomat.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

1- The Vaticanists will be kicking themselves once again for totally missing Bergoglio. In 2005 he was a footnote, and went on to be the strongest alternative to Ratzinger. It is said that he asked his colleagues to stop voting for him, but maybe he just did that to allow a quick resolution for the conclave, as Benedict XVI's election was basically inevitable. This time, he was said to be a kingmaker, but in the end he became the king himself...

He's a Jesuit, and as I understand it, part of their culture is to not seek out offices, so his refusing the papacy the first time it was offered to him would be in character, as would be accepting it once it was offered again.

[Paleobrazilian]

Many conservative catholics in Brazil are pissed with Francis, not because he's not against abortion, gay marriage, etc (he is and will always be against, obviously). The thing about Francis is that he's reportedly a non-traditionalist. I heard he refused to allow priests from his archdiocesis to celebrate the Tridentine Mass, for example.