Which of these groups should sacrifice the most?

[krazen1211]

Does 'any organization' include things like, say, countries?

Oh wait. I forgot. You DO think the population of the United States 'consists of substantial dead weight'. You have been very vocal on that point.

Well, yes. On this forum, by some, the dead weight population is identified as House Republicans and their millions of voters and labeled with a barrage of derogatory terms.

I don't see how you can forget that.

People who see those types as dead weight aren't usually as explicit in doing so--nor, critically, are they typically interested in actively punishing such types for its own sake, except possibly in the case of the House Republicans themselves, two hundred and thirty-odd very well-heeled and powerful people whom you'd surely characterize as 'elites' (sic) if you were remotely intellectually honest or consistent. Also, I'm neither one of this 'some' nor talking to one of them, so I don't see why I should be answering for them. It's simply entirely irrelevant to the discussion of your own worldview; it's such an obvious non sequitur and in some ways false equivalency that I'm having a hard time believing that you mean it in good faith.

All of that being the case, the premise of this thread is stupid in that it should, as usual, obviously simply be whichever group is most capable of taking it without suffering significant hardship. I think that's probably the first, seventh, eighth, or tenth, and I'm reasonably positive it's not the fifth.

Well, I am grossly confused by your inquiry, because House Republicans ARE workers in the public sector. In any case, yes of course countries have dead weight; one can acknowledge this commonly held belief while having a differing opinion on how to deal with such dead weight.

As it stands, there is a substantial overlap between groups 1, 7, 8, and 10 and 'government employees in the United States', especially when one includes contractors, lobbyists, and others who qualify as well-heeled and powerful elites.

They have profited quite well at the expense of the people. It is no coincidence that Washington DC and its surrounding counties are full of wealthies. And elsewhere did you know that Chicago public school teachers make nearly triple the median income of Chicago?

[Obamanation]

Does 'any organization' include things like, say, countries?

Oh wait. I forgot. You DO think the population of the United States 'consists of substantial dead weight'. You have been very vocal on that point.

Well, yes. On this forum, by some, the dead weight population is identified as House Republicans and their millions of voters and labeled with a barrage of derogatory terms.

I don't see how you can forget that.

People who see those types as dead weight aren't usually as explicit in doing so--nor, critically, are they typically interested in actively punishing such types for its own sake, except possibly in the case of the House Republicans themselves, two hundred and thirty-odd very well-heeled and powerful people whom you'd surely characterize as 'elites' (sic) if you were remotely intellectually honest or consistent. Also, I'm neither one of this 'some' nor talking to one of them, so I don't see why I should be answering for them. It's simply entirely irrelevant to the discussion of your own worldview; it's such an obvious non sequitur and in some ways false equivalency that I'm having a hard time believing that you mean it in good faith.

All of that being the case, the premise of this thread is stupid in that it should, as usual, obviously simply be whichever group is most capable of taking it without suffering significant hardship. I think that's probably the first, seventh, eighth, or tenth, and I'm reasonably positive it's not the fifth.

Well, I am grossly confused by your inquiry, because House Republicans ARE workers in the public sector. In any case, yes of course countries have dead weight; one can acknowledge this commonly held belief while having a differing opinion on how to deal with such dead weight.

As it stands, there is a substantial overlap between groups 1, 7, 8, and 10 and 'government employees in the United States', especially when one includes contractors, lobbyists, and others who qualify as well-heeled and powerful elites.

They have profited quite well at the expense of the people. It is no coincidence that Washington DC and its surrounding counties are full of wealthies. And elsewhere did you know that Chicago public school teachers make nearly triple the median income of Chicago?

That's because the median person in Chicago works behind a Starbucks counter and has no marketable skills...

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Does 'any organization' include things like, say, countries?

Oh wait. I forgot. You DO think the population of the United States 'consists of substantial dead weight'. You have been very vocal on that point.

Well, yes. On this forum, by some, the dead weight population is identified as House Republicans and their millions of voters and labeled with a barrage of derogatory terms.

I don't see how you can forget that.

People who see those types as dead weight aren't usually as explicit in doing so--nor, critically, are they typically interested in actively punishing such types for its own sake, except possibly in the case of the House Republicans themselves, two hundred and thirty-odd very well-heeled and powerful people whom you'd surely characterize as 'elites' (sic) if you were remotely intellectually honest or consistent. Also, I'm neither one of this 'some' nor talking to one of them, so I don't see why I should be answering for them. It's simply entirely irrelevant to the discussion of your own worldview; it's such an obvious non sequitur and in some ways false equivalency that I'm having a hard time believing that you mean it in good faith.

All of that being the case, the premise of this thread is stupid in that it should, as usual, obviously simply be whichever group is most capable of taking it without suffering significant hardship. I think that's probably the first, seventh, eighth, or tenth, and I'm reasonably positive it's not the fifth.

Well, I am grossly confused by your inquiry, because House Republicans ARE workers in the public sector. In any case, yes of course countries have dead weight; one can acknowledge this commonly held belief while having a differing opinion on how to deal with such dead weight.

As it stands, there is a substantial overlap between groups 1, 7, 8, and 10 and 'government employees in the United States', especially when one includes contractors, lobbyists, and others who qualify as well-heeled and powerful elites.

They have profited quite well at the expense of the people. It is no coincidence that Washington DC and its surrounding counties are full of wealthies. And elsewhere did you know that Chicago public school teachers make nearly triple the median income of Chicago?

krazen, the problem isn't that you think that there is dead weight in the federal government, or in the United States. Nothing you're saying here is technically incorrect. The problem is with where you manifestly and admittedly think that dead weight lies. Also, 'elite' is an uncountable noun, for God's sake.

[Likely Voter]

State and local government employees have hovered around 6% of the population for decades. The reason state and local numbers have gone up with population is that most of the jobs arent the bureaucratic types that can be scaled down due to improvements in efficiency and technology (Teachers, cops, firemen, health care workers, etc.). Even so, the thing that has been keeping unemployment up for the past few years is losses in local government jobs. Private sector job growth has been pretty good.

As for the federal government, the numbers have held pretty steady so on a per capita basis today there are fewer gov workers than there have been in decades. Again this is mostly due to increased efficiencies which can be realized with federal bureaucracies.

[Peter the Lefty]

Wall Street bankers, defense contractors, large corporations.  I wouldn't say the richest fifth of Americans.  More like the richest 1-2%.

[krazen1211]

Does 'any organization' include things like, say, countries?

Oh wait. I forgot. You DO think the population of the United States 'consists of substantial dead weight'. You have been very vocal on that point.

Well, yes. On this forum, by some, the dead weight population is identified as House Republicans and their millions of voters and labeled with a barrage of derogatory terms.

I don't see how you can forget that.

People who see those types as dead weight aren't usually as explicit in doing so--nor, critically, are they typically interested in actively punishing such types for its own sake, except possibly in the case of the House Republicans themselves, two hundred and thirty-odd very well-heeled and powerful people whom you'd surely characterize as 'elites' (sic) if you were remotely intellectually honest or consistent. Also, I'm neither one of this 'some' nor talking to one of them, so I don't see why I should be answering for them. It's simply entirely irrelevant to the discussion of your own worldview; it's such an obvious non sequitur and in some ways false equivalency that I'm having a hard time believing that you mean it in good faith.

All of that being the case, the premise of this thread is stupid in that it should, as usual, obviously simply be whichever group is most capable of taking it without suffering significant hardship. I think that's probably the first, seventh, eighth, or tenth, and I'm reasonably positive it's not the fifth.

Well, I am grossly confused by your inquiry, because House Republicans ARE workers in the public sector. In any case, yes of course countries have dead weight; one can acknowledge this commonly held belief while having a differing opinion on how to deal with such dead weight.

As it stands, there is a substantial overlap between groups 1, 7, 8, and 10 and 'government employees in the United States', especially when one includes contractors, lobbyists, and others who qualify as well-heeled and powerful elites.

They have profited quite well at the expense of the people. It is no coincidence that Washington DC and its surrounding counties are full of wealthies. And elsewhere did you know that Chicago public school teachers make nearly triple the median income of Chicago?

krazen, the problem isn't that you think that there is dead weight in the federal government, or in the United States. Nothing you're saying here is technically incorrect. The problem is with where you manifestly and admittedly think that dead weight lies. Also, 'elite' is an uncountable noun, for God's sake.

Well, I tend to think it lies with these types.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2010/04/new_sec_porn_bust_details_rele_1.html

Of the employees, eight resigned and six were suspended for periods lasting one to 14 days, the inspector general, H. David Kotz, said in an letter Tuesday to Sen. Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa). Five were issued formal reprimands, six were issued informal counseling or warning letters, and three are currently facing disciplinary action.

[NVGonzalez]

If public employers have to sacrifice I would start with the members of Congress first.

[nclib]

If public employers have to sacrifice I would start with the members of Congress first.

What would be the point of that?

They're the ones most interested in the cuts so they should lead the way.

[opebo]

"Shared sacrifice" is a dumb concept. If you think the present system is scaled too favourably to the rich, you should support sacrifices to made by the rich before the non-rich. If you think the present tax system is too unfavourable to the rich, you should support sacrifices made by the non-rich before the rich. Yet again status quo bias pervades, with people not really having any coherent philosophy of economic fairness to guide their decisions.

I'd go a bit further - anyone who suggests calling the rich to account for their crimes without demanding the proper punishment is really just whistling Dixie.  Calling for sacrifices is just like asking Simon Legree 'not to beat us so much' or to give us a little more cornpone.  The appropriate response to the crimes of the slaveowner is to do one's best to kill him and all his heirs and dispossess them of their lands.

[krazen1211]

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2013/02/15_retiring_atlantic_city_publ.html

About $2.2 million in unused sick and vacation time will be paid out to 15 Atlantic City municipal workers retiring this month, according to a report on PressofAC.com.

Robert Palamaro and Daniel Tamburilla, two deputy fire chiefs, will each receive more than $283,000, the report said. Nine of the other retirees, mostly fire and police, will walk away with between $125,000 and $209,000.





A dying city recently ravaged by a hurricane cuts 6 figure checks for not being sick! What a great story.

[TNF]

Anyone making over $100K a year needs to start paying a lot more in income taxes.

[Indy Texas]

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2013/02/15_retiring_atlantic_city_publ.html

About $2.2 million in unused sick and vacation time will be paid out to 15 Atlantic City municipal workers retiring this month, according to a report on PressofAC.com.

Robert Palamaro and Daniel Tamburilla, two deputy fire chiefs, will each receive more than $283,000, the report said. Nine of the other retirees, mostly fire and police, will walk away with between $125,000 and $209,000.





A dying city recently ravaged by a hurricane cuts 6 figure checks for not being sick! What a great story.

It's called enforcing previously agreed to contracts, Krazen. It's the same reason Wall Street executives got multimillion dollar bonuses simply for not quitting after they ran their companies into the ground in 2008 and got lots of what Mitt would call "gifts" from the government.

You do support enforcement of contracts and rule of law, correct?

[krazen1211]

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2013/02/15_retiring_atlantic_city_publ.html

About $2.2 million in unused sick and vacation time will be paid out to 15 Atlantic City municipal workers retiring this month, according to a report on PressofAC.com.

Robert Palamaro and Daniel Tamburilla, two deputy fire chiefs, will each receive more than $283,000, the report said. Nine of the other retirees, mostly fire and police, will walk away with between $125,000 and $209,000.





A dying city recently ravaged by a hurricane cuts 6 figure checks for not being sick! What a great story.

It's called enforcing previously agreed to contracts, Krazen. It's the same reason Wall Street executives got multimillion dollar bonuses simply for not quitting after they ran their companies into the ground in 2008 and got lots of what Mitt would call "gifts" from the government.

You do support enforcement of contracts and rule of law, correct?

There is nothing wrong with enforcement of contracts.

It is merely a sign of who the left wing cares about in this nation and who they hate. After all, it takes someone to sign such a contract in the first place.

Those who are screeching about a downsizing of a small amount of municipal employees should shut their traps if they willingly sign such contracts.

Municipal bankruptcy is coming to Atlantic City anyway. That will void the remaining contracts as AC becomes Camden East.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2013/02/15_retiring_atlantic_city_publ.html

About $2.2 million in unused sick and vacation time will be paid out to 15 Atlantic City municipal workers retiring this month, according to a report on PressofAC.com.

Robert Palamaro and Daniel Tamburilla, two deputy fire chiefs, will each receive more than $283,000, the report said. Nine of the other retirees, mostly fire and police, will walk away with between $125,000 and $209,000.





A dying city recently ravaged by a hurricane cuts 6 figure checks for not being sick! What a great story.

It's called enforcing previously agreed to contracts, Krazen. It's the same reason Wall Street executives got multimillion dollar bonuses simply for not quitting after they ran their companies into the ground in 2008 and got lots of what Mitt would call "gifts" from the government.

You do support enforcement of contracts and rule of law, correct?

There is nothing wrong with enforcement of contracts.

It is merely a sign of who the left wing cares about in this nation and who they hate. After all, it takes someone to sign such a contract in the first place.

Those who are screeching about a downsizing of a small amount of municipal employees should shut their traps if they willingly sign such contracts.

Municipal bankruptcy is coming to Atlantic City anyway. That will void the remaining contracts as AC becomes Camden East.

Please, tell us whom we hate.

[The Free North]

No one

[krazen1211]

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2013/02/15_retiring_atlantic_city_publ.html

About $2.2 million in unused sick and vacation time will be paid out to 15 Atlantic City municipal workers retiring this month, according to a report on PressofAC.com.

Robert Palamaro and Daniel Tamburilla, two deputy fire chiefs, will each receive more than $283,000, the report said. Nine of the other retirees, mostly fire and police, will walk away with between $125,000 and $209,000.





A dying city recently ravaged by a hurricane cuts 6 figure checks for not being sick! What a great story.

It's called enforcing previously agreed to contracts, Krazen. It's the same reason Wall Street executives got multimillion dollar bonuses simply for not quitting after they ran their companies into the ground in 2008 and got lots of what Mitt would call "gifts" from the government.

You do support enforcement of contracts and rule of law, correct?

There is nothing wrong with enforcement of contracts.

It is merely a sign of who the left wing cares about in this nation and who they hate. After all, it takes someone to sign such a contract in the first place.

Those who are screeching about a downsizing of a small amount of municipal employees should shut their traps if they willingly sign such contracts.

Municipal bankruptcy is coming to Atlantic City anyway. That will void the remaining contracts as AC becomes Camden East.

Please, tell us whom we hate.

In this case, the people of Atlantic City. It's really odd, I have never met a person who was paid a massive sum for not being sick. Indeed, commoners like myself are not paid when we are sick.

[opebo]

It's really odd, I have never met a person who was paid a massive sum for not being sick. Indeed, commoners like myself are not paid when we are sick.

You need to become a socialist, you nincompoop.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2013/02/15_retiring_atlantic_city_publ.html

About $2.2 million in unused sick and vacation time will be paid out to 15 Atlantic City municipal workers retiring this month, according to a report on PressofAC.com.

Robert Palamaro and Daniel Tamburilla, two deputy fire chiefs, will each receive more than $283,000, the report said. Nine of the other retirees, mostly fire and police, will walk away with between $125,000 and $209,000.





A dying city recently ravaged by a hurricane cuts 6 figure checks for not being sick! What a great story.

It's called enforcing previously agreed to contracts, Krazen. It's the same reason Wall Street executives got multimillion dollar bonuses simply for not quitting after they ran their companies into the ground in 2008 and got lots of what Mitt would call "gifts" from the government.

You do support enforcement of contracts and rule of law, correct?

There is nothing wrong with enforcement of contracts.

It is merely a sign of who the left wing cares about in this nation and who they hate. After all, it takes someone to sign such a contract in the first place.

Those who are screeching about a downsizing of a small amount of municipal employees should shut their traps if they willingly sign such contracts.

Municipal bankruptcy is coming to Atlantic City anyway. That will void the remaining contracts as AC becomes Camden East.

Please, tell us whom we hate.

In this case, the people of Atlantic City. It's really odd, I have never met a person who was paid a massive sum for not being sick. Indeed, commoners like myself are not paid when we are sick.

Even taking at face value the presupposition that this is bad overall for the people of Atlantic City--who apparently don't include retiring municipal workers among their number--why are you assuming malice? Not everybody has the same sort of personality type and worldview that you do, after all.

Most of us already know that sick and vacation time setups in the private sector are shoddy messes. What on Earth is that supposed to demonstrate?

[Indy Texas]

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2013/02/15_retiring_atlantic_city_publ.html

About $2.2 million in unused sick and vacation time will be paid out to 15 Atlantic City municipal workers retiring this month, according to a report on PressofAC.com.

Robert Palamaro and Daniel Tamburilla, two deputy fire chiefs, will each receive more than $283,000, the report said. Nine of the other retirees, mostly fire and police, will walk away with between $125,000 and $209,000.





A dying city recently ravaged by a hurricane cuts 6 figure checks for not being sick! What a great story.

It's called enforcing previously agreed to contracts, Krazen. It's the same reason Wall Street executives got multimillion dollar bonuses simply for not quitting after they ran their companies into the ground in 2008 and got lots of what Mitt would call "gifts" from the government.

You do support enforcement of contracts and rule of law, correct?

There is nothing wrong with enforcement of contracts.

It is merely a sign of who the left wing cares about in this nation and who they hate. After all, it takes someone to sign such a contract in the first place.

Those who are screeching about a downsizing of a small amount of municipal employees should shut their traps if they willingly sign such contracts.

Municipal bankruptcy is coming to Atlantic City anyway. That will void the remaining contracts as AC becomes Camden East.

Please, tell us whom we hate.

In this case, the people of Atlantic City. It's really odd, I have never met a person who was paid a massive sum for not being sick. Indeed, commoners like myself are not paid when we are sick.

So basically you're just jealous that they negotiated for a better benefits package than you've got.

[TNF]

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2013/02/15_retiring_atlantic_city_publ.html

About $2.2 million in unused sick and vacation time will be paid out to 15 Atlantic City municipal workers retiring this month, according to a report on PressofAC.com.

Robert Palamaro and Daniel Tamburilla, two deputy fire chiefs, will each receive more than $283,000, the report said. Nine of the other retirees, mostly fire and police, will walk away with between $125,000 and $209,000.





A dying city recently ravaged by a hurricane cuts 6 figure checks for not being sick! What a great story.

It's called enforcing previously agreed to contracts, Krazen. It's the same reason Wall Street executives got multimillion dollar bonuses simply for not quitting after they ran their companies into the ground in 2008 and got lots of what Mitt would call "gifts" from the government.

You do support enforcement of contracts and rule of law, correct?

There is nothing wrong with enforcement of contracts.

It is merely a sign of who the left wing cares about in this nation and who they hate. After all, it takes someone to sign such a contract in the first place.

Those who are screeching about a downsizing of a small amount of municipal employees should shut their traps if they willingly sign such contracts.

Municipal bankruptcy is coming to Atlantic City anyway. That will void the remaining contracts as AC becomes Camden East.

Please, tell us whom we hate.

In this case, the people of Atlantic City. It's really odd, I have never met a person who was paid a massive sum for not being sick. Indeed, commoners like myself are not paid when we are sick.

So basically you're just jealous that they negotiated for a better benefits package than you've got.

That's basically all union-hate summed up in a single sentence.

[Link]

There's a lot of talk about "shared sacrifice" and "tightening belts" re: austerity, not just in Europe but also, increasingly, in the United States.

So who ought to suffer sacrifice the most under austerity?

Why are you using words like "sacrifice," "austerity," and "suffer?"  Isn't the problem we have bills to pay and we need money to do it?  Where is the money?



I don't understand how a simple arithmetic problem turns into a political war.

[TNF]

There's a lot of talk about "shared sacrifice" and "tightening belts" re: austerity, not just in Europe but also, increasingly, in the United States.

So who ought to suffer sacrifice the most under austerity?

Why are you using words like "sacrifice," "austerity," and "suffer?"  Isn't the problem we have bills to pay and we need money to do it?  Where is the money?

-snip-

I don't understand how a simple arithmetic problem turns into a political war.

Because the people who have all the wealth in this country don't want to lose it, and that's why they employ their butlers in Congress (the GOP) to fight a political war to keep the rest of us from demanding what is rightfully our's.

There is no need for "shared sacrifice." The sonsofbitches who created this mess should pay to fix it. We need to go back to the days of the 70% top income tax rate.

[You kip if you want to...]

Richest filth, bankers, corporations.

[fezzyfestoon]

If public employers have to sacrifice I would start with the members of Congress first.

What would be the point of that?

They're the ones most interested in the cuts so they should lead the way.

You really think their congressional income matters to them with all the money they rake in from selling their power?

[opebo]

There is no need for "shared sacrifice." The sonsofbitches who created this mess should pay to fix it. We need to go back to the days of the 70% top income tax rate.

What we really need is to guillotine them.  But I'm afraid that's as much a pipe dream as is raising their taxes significantly.  The have all the power, of course that's why they have all the money.