Moses, Hebrews leaving Egypt, etc. - backed up by other histories?
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  Moses, Hebrews leaving Egypt, etc. - backed up by other histories?
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color1
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« Reply #75 on: June 20, 2013, 04:05:32 AM »

""The entire Iron Age sequence is now thought to be much earlier than previously thought, with some levels being re-dated by up to two hundred years"

   This is what the article said.  The ENTIRE IRON AGE.  ENTIRE include beginning, middle, and end.
   I didn't say it.  The authors did.

And the evidence implies those same methods applied elsewhere would move the ENTIRE iron age.
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color1
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« Reply #76 on: June 20, 2013, 06:23:27 AM »


Previously wrote: "Here is an interesting wrinkle from the new carbon 14 grain dates: the calibrated dates for Jericho destruction level grains show around 1600 - 1520 BC or around 1550 BC.  But apparently the raw uncalibrated date shows around 1400 BC."

From the carbon-14 analysis:

"Both dates are more precise than the standard
deviation (Q) of the calibration curves and the absolute standard of oxalic acid. Calibration of the above Jericho dates is a bit premature, because several groups are currently testing the accuracy of both the 1986 and 1993 calibration curves. Nevertheless,
preliminary calibration results are presented for comparison, based on 4 different calibration curves and 3 different
computer programs. Wiggles in the calibration curves translate the precise BP dates into rather wide ranges in historical years.
The final destruction of MBA Jericho occurred during the late 17th or the 16th century BC. More definite statements about the
calibrated ages cannot be made until the accuracy of available calibration curves has been tested. Development of calibration
curves for the Eastern Mediterranean region would be important."

 These are not necessarily the final dates folks - premature, calibration curves used still being verified for accuracy.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #77 on: June 20, 2013, 02:29:46 PM »

""The entire Iron Age sequence is now thought to be much earlier than previously thought, with some levels being re-dated by up to two hundred years"

   This is what the article said.  The ENTIRE IRON AGE.  ENTIRE include beginning, middle, and end.
   I didn't say it.  The authors did.

And the evidence implies those same methods applied elsewhere would move the ENTIRE iron age.

You need to go re-read that article yourself.  it is talking not about the "entire Iron Age", but the "entire Iron Age sequence", i.e., the sequence of Iron Age artifacts at that one particular site.  The article is saying that those particular artifacts date to earlier within the Iron Age than was previously thought, not that the Iron Age itself dates to earlier than had been thought.
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barfbag
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« Reply #78 on: July 06, 2013, 09:20:54 PM »

They likely migrated north to escape the drought on an annual basis over the course of a few centuries.
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color1
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« Reply #79 on: August 05, 2013, 07:00:11 AM »

If the Bible hiistorically is accurate in regards to Moses being Egyptian royalty, then his nick name (who knows what is official real Egyptian name was) most likey reflects his Egyptian royal family.
 Amoses   Thutmoses.  Moses came from the royal family of "moses'es.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #80 on: August 05, 2013, 10:58:15 AM »

If the Bible historically is accurate in regards to Moses being Egyptian royalty, then his nick name (who knows what is official real Egyptian name was) most likely reflects his Egyptian royal family.
 Amoses   Thutmoses.  Moses came from the royal family of "moses'es.

The -mose suffix in  Tutmose and Ahmose as well as the -meses suffix in Ramesses and Amenmesses all mean "born of". (The vowels in Egyptology are largely a matter of convention, so you can't attach significance to them.  Indeed, for non-Pharaohs with the name Ramesses, the name is written as Ramose despite using the exact same hieroglyphs.) Hence, if the name Moses is Egyptian in origin, then it simply means "birth", which is not unreasonable since to him is ascribed the birth of Israel out of its Egyptian womb.  However, such a theory would also require Exodus 2:10 to be in error, for there the name Moses which is said to be given by Pharaoh's daughter is ascribed to the Ancient Hebrew term for drawing water since he was drawn from the river Nile.  (Of course, the passage appears to be merely an after the fact  codification of a folk etymology for the name once knowledge of the Egyptian language was no longer common among the Hebrews.)
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color1
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« Reply #81 on: August 06, 2013, 08:00:26 AM »

  I think after 300+ years in Egypt, they were Egyptians thru and thru.  Jewish, Hebrew culture only came into existance after the laws were given after the Exodus and a complete change in life style and eating habits were enforced.  (The people still leaned to "gods" -- the golden calf worshipped and Egyptian culture).
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barfbag
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« Reply #82 on: August 08, 2013, 11:51:04 PM »

The Bible mentions Pi-Ramses which would've been Ramesses II during the "exodus." However, the story of the exodus is a mythological telling of the Hebrews migrating northward each year to likely evade a drought. There is no way it took 40 years to travel from Egypt to Israel. Once they settled, they slaughtered the Canaanites and took over the land of Cana. 
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color1
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« Reply #83 on: August 14, 2013, 06:54:02 PM »


   
   
 
   Either there was a Pi-Ramses town  200 years earlier or the Exodus account was written 200 years later (and they used the current name of the town).   It appears that Joshua was wriiten during the time of the judges of Israel or maybe Exodus was also.  Leviticus was written by Moses.

    There is evidence that it may not be mythological: Thutmoses II & Thutmoses III had boil scars; Thutmose III not related to Thutmose II (indicating the real Thutmose III  -first born died); Egyptian hieroglyphs saying all Semitic peoples forced out of delta by reign of Thutmose III;  earliest Hebrew homes in Canaan is same design as those of Egyptian Avaris in the delta.

   These all line up with the Biblical account.  The Hebrews were Egyptians.

 
You may not realize that the Bible says that they entered Canaan(way before 40 years).  But after the Hebrew spies returned they refused to fight the Canaanites.  They were scared!  Only Caleb and Joshua said they could conquer with the Lord's help.  But the people refused to fight.

Then God in anger turned them to go back to the desert for 40 years until that generation died out. Their children conquered Canaan with Joshua 40 years later.

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barfbag
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« Reply #84 on: August 15, 2013, 12:27:59 AM »


   
   
 
   Either there was a Pi-Ramses town  200 years earlier or the Exodus account was written 200 years later (and they used the current name of the town).   It appears that Joshua was wriiten during the time of the judges of Israel or maybe Exodus was also.  Leviticus was written by Moses.

    There is evidence that it may not be mythological: Thutmoses II & Thutmoses III had boil scars; Thutmose III not related to Thutmose II (indicating the real Thutmose III  -first born died); Egyptian hieroglyphs saying all Semitic peoples forced out of delta by reign of Thutmose III;  earliest Hebrew homes in Canaan is same design as those of Egyptian Avaris in the delta.

   These all line up with the Biblical account.  The Hebrews were Egyptians.

 
You may not realize that the Bible says that they entered Canaan(way before 40 years).  But after the Hebrew spies returned they refused to fight the Canaanites.  They were scared!  Only Caleb and Joshua said they could conquer with the Lord's help.  But the people refused to fight.

Then God in anger turned them to go back to the desert for 40 years until that generation died out. Their children conquered Canaan with Joshua 40 years later.



Exodus was written between 922-722 BCE as a response to the division caused by Solomon where the northern and southern kingdoms formed. Believe it or not it had to do with an unpopular labor tax and the appointment of Jeroboam over Adonijah as high priest. I think it was Jeroboam.
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jfern
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« Reply #85 on: August 15, 2013, 12:30:53 AM »

The Samaritans are the Jews who never left Israel.
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color1
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« Reply #86 on: February 24, 2015, 01:59:49 PM »

2015: Recently King Hezikiah, descendent of David has been verified to have reigned around 900 BC -- found tunnel that he built with commorating plaque & in the Metropolitan Museum of New York there is Assyrian King stone plaque showing how he went against the "House of David".  Just as the Bible says during King Hezikiah's reign.
-----
   We now have evidence that during the time of David/Solomon an administrative/government system existed where communication was sent via written communications (found the government clay seals) at the outskirts of the kingdom.  found extensive copper mine operations during this time era in israels domain areas as described in the Bible; found the city of 2 gates dating to David/Solomon's reign. 
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    So based on the above, the Bible dates the Exodus to between 1446 - 1450 BC. (from when Solomon started the Temple)
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    What is unknown is how long the Jews - AFTER the EXODUS  from Egypt -- wondered near the Red Sea.  Was it a month,  2 months, a year?
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   Thru carbon-14 dating we know that Thutmose III reigned around this time & supposedly he died April 1450 BC.
    So I think it is a good bet that Thutmose III was the Pharoah that experienced the 10 Plagues
       and let the Jewish slaves leave out of Egypt  with Moses leading the way.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #87 on: February 24, 2015, 05:11:25 PM »

color, I don't think anyone doubts the historicity of David, tho there are doubts about whether the Davidic realm was as extensive and powerful as described in II Samuel.  But regardless, that doesn't matter much in helping to determine if the Exodus account has any historical basis.  The principal problems with Thutmoses III being the pharaoh of Exodus comes not from the dates given in the Bible, but in the events given in the Bible.  According to the Bible, the Israelites took a southerly route as they left Egypt to avoid Philistines and Joshua encountered enemies with iron chariots.  Thutmoses III (or any XVIIth Dynasty pharoah) is simply too early for those to have happened.  The Philistines (aka the Sea Peoples) took control of their Pentapolis during the reign of Ramses III and the XVIIIth Dynastry is during the Late Bronze Age.  If Exodus is of historical value, I think it far more likely that the traditional chronology of the Book of Judges is wrong.  With all of those round forty year intervals in Judges, it's quite clear that the author was more interested in numerology than history.
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color1
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« Reply #88 on: February 25, 2015, 10:14:47 AM »

Federalist,  I think is it known that the Hittites & their precursors already had iron technology at the time of Joseph.  It makes (sense to me) that they knowning the superiority of iron vs copper or bronze used it to plate their wooden chariots.  Most likely iron chariot wheels came much much later.  But iron plates would have been easy to make for the wooden chariots and would have given them a military advantage.  Egypt being the world power in the levant would naturally have purchased these plates of iron to put on their wooden chariots. 
----
   Anyway that seems logical to me.
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color1
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« Reply #89 on: February 25, 2015, 10:22:48 AM »

From Wikipedia: The Hattic were the precursor people to the Hittites of Joshua's day.

One of the earliest smelted iron artifacts known is a dagger with an iron blade found in a Hattic tomb in Anatolia, dating from 2500 BC.[10] About 1500 BC, increasing numbers of non-meteoritic, smelted iron objects appear in Mesopotamia, Anatolia, and Egypt.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #90 on: February 25, 2015, 01:24:02 PM »

Federalist,  I think is it known that the Hittites & their precursors already had iron technology at the time of Joseph.  It makes (sense to me) that they knowing the superiority of iron vs copper or bronze used it to plate their wooden chariots.  Most likely iron chariot wheels came much much later.  But iron plates would have been easy to make for the wooden chariots and would have given them a military advantage.  Egypt being the world power in the levant would naturally have purchased these plates of iron to put on their wooden chariots. 
----
   Anyway that seems logical to me.

Actually, in many ways early iron is inferior to bronze for warfare.  Cast iron is brittle.  Wrought iron is malleable.  Iron is far more susceptible to oxidation than bronze. It isn't until early steel begins to be produced that it begins to be the equal to bronze or for that matter the superior.  Those techniques as well as iron becoming more common than bronze doesn't happen until the Bronze Age collapse which is after the XVIIIth Dynasty.

From Wikipedia: The Hattic were the precursor people to the Hittites of Joshua's day.

One of the earliest smelted iron artifacts known is a dagger with an iron blade found in a Hattic tomb in Anatolia, dating from 2500 BC.[10] About 1500 BC, increasing numbers of non-meteoritic, smelted iron objects appear in Mesopotamia, Anatolia, and Egypt.

From that same Wikipedia article you failed to identify:
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As that same article explains further on, iron doesn't begin to appear in quantity anywhere until the trade routes needed to bring together the components for good quality bronze were disrupted, i.e., as part of the Bronze Age collapse.  That collapse basically forced people to start working with iron and as a result discover how to improve it to the point where it was indeed superior to bronze.

Also I note, that you totally ignored my point concerning the mention of the Philistines in Exodus.
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« Reply #91 on: February 25, 2015, 01:55:18 PM »

Let's consult my Biblical Archeology Textbook:

"There are no specific Egyptian references to the sojourn, the Exodus, Joseph, or Moses. For two reasons this silence is not surprising. First, any record of Joseph was lost in the Egyptian purge of Hyksos history. It is not possible to give even a full list of Hyksos kings, let alone their viziers. Second, since the Egyptians had little interest in recording setbacks it is unlikely that the exodus and its attendant problems would have been recorded."
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color1
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« Reply #92 on: February 26, 2015, 12:05:47 PM »

Federalist,
    There is strong evidence that the Philistines occupied and saturated Gath by 1200 BC.  So it seems very likely that they inhabited that area as early as 100years prior to dominating and saturating the region.  Joshua in 1300 - 1350 encountered them in Caanon/Palenstine/Gaza.

---
   Perhaps like the English inhabitants of James Town, before the English dominated the region a 100 years later.
----
   Probably migrations/dominance took longer in those days, so 100 years before dominance and saturation of a region seems quite probable.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #93 on: February 26, 2015, 02:38:32 PM »

Federalist,
    There is strong evidence that the Philistines occupied and saturated Gath by 1200 BC.  So it seems very likely that they inhabited that area as early as 100years prior to dominating and saturating the region.  Joshua in 1300 - 1350 encountered them in Caanon/Palenstine/Gaza.

---
   Perhaps like the English inhabitants of James Town, before the English dominated the region a 100 years later.
----
   Probably migrations/dominance took longer in those days, so 100 years before dominance and saturation of a region seems quite probable.

color, regardless of the exact date, Eighteenth Dynasty Egypt dominated not only the future Philistine Pentapolis, it dominated all of Canaan.  Pi-Ramses and Pi-Atum would not have been on the borders of Egypt then as described in the Bible.  That is why if Exodus is historically based it must be after the Eighteenth Dynasty.
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color1
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« Reply #94 on: February 27, 2015, 09:41:47 AM »

Perhaps,  Pi-Ramses is an indication of when the text was written and not when the events occurred.  The proximity of Pi-Ramses is where the more ancient metropolis of Advaris was - home to the semetic peoples (I believe the Isrealites). 
----
 Its like Gath of Goliath - 25 years ago there where multiple potential sites & no one knew where it was.  Today the location is identified in writing by the village that sits atop the ruins.
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   As an aside, when in the times of Joseph iron chariots are mentioned for Egypt, I believe that it was a declaration of the incredible wealth of Pharaoh.  In those days, iron was more valuable than gold.  In Joshua's day the Hitties built their weapons and chariots from carbonized iron (STEEL) and it showed militarily superior technology -- and the Isrealites could not overcome them.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #95 on: February 27, 2015, 07:12:45 PM »

Perhaps,  Pi-Ramses is an indication of when the text was written and not when the events occurred.  The proximity of Pi-Ramses is where the more ancient metropolis of Avaris was - home to the Semitic peoples (I believe the Israelites). 
----
 Its like Gath of Goliath - 25 years ago there where multiple potential sites & no one knew where it was.  Today the location is identified in writing by the village that sits atop the ruins.

While the exact location and name of Pi-Ramses at the time of a historical Exodus is debatable, its location on the eastern edge of the Nile Delta is not, and that is what is important to my argument against a historical Exodus happening during the Eighteenth Dynasty.

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Joseph?  Iron is not mentioned at all in relation to Joseph, nor are iron chariots mentioned until Joshua is invading Canaan.  This is not the first time you have made an incorrect claim in this thread as to what is in the Bible in order to support your theory.

In the days when iron was more valuable than gold, it was when only meteoric iron was available.  Once early smelting began, iron became cheaper than bronze, largely because the iron resulting from primitive smelting was softer and less durable than bronze. It wasn't until the chaos of the Bronze Age Collapse when all available bronze was needed for military purposes that people started using iron in quantity.  That increased familiarity led to the development of steel.  However the Bronze Age Collapse happened after the Eighteenth Dynasty.
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color1
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« Reply #96 on: March 04, 2015, 12:44:59 PM »

It 's interesting that the Biblical text doesn't say that Pharaoh was killed, but that his army to a man was killed during the Red Sea crossing.  So Thutmose III may have survived the destruction of his Egyptian army some time around 1445 - 1450 BC.
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   It is becoming clearer every year that the Israel of David and Solomon was a kingdom capable of building large structures and forts and governed the entire territory of Israel.
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   There was a large population of Asiatics (Hebrews) that occupied Avaris in the Egyptian Nile Delta during the time preceding  Moses.  Avaris lies adjacent to where the city of Pi-Ramses would reside several  hundred years later.
   Avaris was vacated.  There is some evidence that Pharaoh claims to have evicted them from the delta.
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   In my opinion there is no reason for Jewish writers of the Bible of David/Solomon's  time (when Pi-Ramses existed) to lie about the Exodus.  If it was a lie, it would only denigrate the kingdoms of David and Solomon.  It would permanently damage the reputation of the "House of David".
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    Thutmose III, arguably the greatest Pharaoh of Egypt, was humiliated by God as his army was totally wiped out to a man at the Red Sea.
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    If this event happened one would expect to see a resultant crisis in Egypt.  Akhenaten rejecting most of the gods of Egypt and accepting a supreme one god is evidence of this crisis/shaking of the foundations of Egyptian religious belief after the destruction by God of the Egyptian army of Thutmose III.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #97 on: March 05, 2015, 12:22:09 AM »

   Avaris was vacated.  There is some evidence that Pharaoh claims to have evicted them from the delta.

Avaris was abandoned because the branch of the Nile Delta it was on silted up.

   In my opinion there is no reason for Jewish writers of the Bible of David/Solomon's  time (when Pi-Ramses existed) to lie about the Exodus.  If it was a lie, it would only denigrate the kingdoms of David and Solomon.  It would permanently damage the reputation of the "House of David".

Rulers and their lackeys lie all the time about events.  Indeed, that fact is one often used to explain the lack of any apparent mention of the Exodus in Egyptian records.

    Thutmose III, arguably the greatest Pharaoh of Egypt, was humiliated by God as his army was totally wiped out to a man at the Red Sea.
---
    If this event happened one would expect to see a resultant crisis in Egypt.  Akhenaten rejecting most of the gods of Egypt and accepting a supreme one god is evidence of this crisis/shaking of the foundations of Egyptian religious belief after the destruction by God of the Egyptian army of Thutmose III.

Except there is nothing in the records of either Egypt or its neighbors to suggest any destruction of its army or any loss of control over Canaan at any point of the Eighteenth Dynasty.  While one could reasonably expect that Egypt would have motive to obscure the truth if it happened, its neighbors would have reason to gloat and to take advantage of Egypt's weakness.  If Exodus is historical, it cannot have occurred in the reign of any pharaoh with firm control of Canaan and that certainly describes Thutmose III.  The pharaoh of Exodus has no control over Canaan.
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color1
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« Reply #98 on: March 06, 2015, 04:06:25 PM »

   I think the archeological evidence is building that the cities of Jericho, Meddigo, Hazor were destroyed loosely around 1400 BCE.  If the Exodus happened around 1445 - 1450 BC then then adding 40 or 50 years and one is into Joshua's (et al - those after Joshua) conquest of Canaan.

Perhaps Akhenaten was disturbed and frightened by the God of these ex-slaves winning conquest after conquest.

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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #99 on: March 06, 2015, 04:51:28 PM »

   I think the archeological evidence is building that the cities of Jericho, Meddigo, Hazor were destroyed loosely around 1400 BCE.  If the Exodus happened around 1445 - 1450 BC then then adding 40 or 50 years and one is into Joshua's (et al - those after Joshua) conquest of Canaan.

Perhaps Akhenaten was disturbed and frightened by the God of these ex-slaves winning conquest after conquest.

Then you don't think the way archaeologists do.  They're pretty much in agreement that the destruction of Jericho that caused it to be largely depopulated for a few centuries happened c. 1550 BC.  If you're going to insist upon the historicity of the Biblical sack of Jericho, you're pretty much stuck with the Pharaoh of Exodus be a Hyksos of the XVth dynasty with the possibility that Joseph was one of Semitic pharaohs of the XIVth dynasty.  (The relationship of the XIIIth and XIVth dynasties is such that the idea that the Biblical history recalls the pharaohs of the XIVth as viziers of the XIIIth is not preposterous, tho not without problems, especially if you hold to a long sojourn ala the Masoretic text instead of a short sojourn ala the Septuagint.
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