Moses, Hebrews leaving Egypt, etc. - backed up by other histories? (user search)
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  Moses, Hebrews leaving Egypt, etc. - backed up by other histories? (search mode)
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color1
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« on: May 18, 2013, 08:55:37 AM »

According to the Bible, there is one plague that should leave evidence on Pharaoh and his house.
That plague is the plague of boils that covered skin of the Egyptians including Pharaoh. Exodus 9:9 "It will become fine dust over the whole land of Egypt, and festering boils will break out on men and animals." So is there evidence on Pharaohs for boils?

Thutmose II, Hatshepsut, and Thutmose III mummies have mysterious skin lesions/boils.

Something traumatic happened in Egypt.  A woman becomes pharaoh!  And the latest DNA evidence implies that Thutmose III  is not related to Thutmose II [death of first borns throughout the wives and relatives of pharaohs and all of Egyptians wreaked havoc].  Within 1 pharaoh without boils, Akhenaten comes to power & rejects all of Egypt's gods and worship one sun god.

   The God given plagues and the loss of Egypt's army at the sea, would have traumatized Egypt & there should be evidence for this:  A woman becomes Pharaoh; a son is not related to father (Thutmose II & III) & a Pharaoh rejects Egypt's many gods for one god.
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color1
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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2013, 09:39:48 AM »

I think the Bible is in a different class than the tales of King Authur.

  The Bible is supernatural.

It predicted the destruction of the nation of Israel (happened), the global dispersion of the Jews(happened), the global hatred of the Jews (happened), that the Jews would retain belief in the ONE God after conquest/defeat (happened, very unusual in history for this to happen), they would keep their language despite the global dispersion(happened),  Israel would become a nation  again (happened), City of David, Jerusalem, would become Israel's capital (happened), Jews would return to Israel (happened). A new Temple to be built [not happened yet]
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color1
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« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2013, 04:17:16 PM »
« Edited: May 18, 2013, 04:27:51 PM by color1 »

Ernest,  I think Tutmose IV didn't reign that long.  So Akhenaten still probably heard from Tutmose III (long reign) in his old old age about Moses & plagues of Egypt.  The fear of GOD still shook Egypt.

The EVIDENCE of the boils points to this exact TIME.  Not Ramses since Ramses had no boils on his mummy.  The boils/skin lesions should have encompassed several generation of Pharaohs (grandfather, father, child, even new born).  The Pharaonic mummy records shows this clearly.  Several generations of Pharaohs suffered the skin lesions.  Those who were young had many more years for the impact of lesions to lessen.  That is exact what is seen in the mummies.

This is the time of Moses.    Thutmose II was probably the ruler.  He died in the chaos of the Exodus.  His sons probably died in the fury to annihilate/re-enslave the Israellites.  Hatshepsut took control in panic/fear of the death of Pharaoh & sons(vacuum).  Thutmose III was put in (not related by DNA Thutmose  II) and proclaimed son of Thutmose II ( a coverup ) as a youth.  

Akhenaten decided that the gods of Egypt to be too weak against Moses' God and elevated the sun god to be supreme.

The end of Thutmose II reign or the beginning of Hatshepsut is the time of the Exodus.

PS: if Hatshepsut was Moses' Egyptian mother, it explains why she received the rulership of Egypt. Moses would not kill his own mother would he?  Egypt needed protection from the God of Moses.  The FEAR of GOD gripped Egypt.
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color1
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« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2013, 07:09:34 PM »

Some thinks Exodus happened near 1491 BC:

James Ussher/Paul Hansen: 1491 BCE

James Ussher gave a date of 1491 BCE for the Exodus in his 1654 work, Annales Veteris Testamenti: A Prima Mundi Oigine Deducti.[5] Ussher's work very strongly influences the chronology advocated by Paul Hansen of Answers in Genesis, who uses the same date[6]

A 1491 BCE date would put the exodus in the early 18th Dynasty, during the reign of Thutmose II according to standard chronology[7], though a date early in the reign of Hatshepsut or late in the reign of Thutmose I would be within the +/− 10 year margin of error given by Shaw for the New Kingdom period.

Others think closer to 1447 BC.
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color1
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« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2013, 07:49:38 PM »

Last year's DNA testing shows Thutmose III was NOT son of Thutmose II as Egyptians and Thutmose III claimed (cover up).  The real Thutmose III died as the first born of Pharaoh during the Passover.
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color1
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« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2013, 08:38:18 PM »

Ernest,  Don't know about Josepth.

 The question was is there outside of the Bible evidence for Moses and the Exodus story.   There is only one plague that can provide evidence today.  Egypt's incredible mummification process preserved the skins of the Pharaohs.  We have direct evidence that Thutmose II had skin lesions/boils and 2 other generations of Pharaohs.  We have direct evidence that Thutmose III (son of Thutmose II) is NOT genetically related to Thutmose II (coverup).  That implies that the real Thutmose III (the real first born of Thutmose II) died -- and it was kept SECRET.  The PASSOVER killing of all first born including Pharaoh's house as Exodus clearly states happened.

  Yes there is EVIDENCE that the plague of boils REALLY happened to 3 generation of Pharaohs( the boils/skin lesions were not a genetic passed down thing. All 3 people are not related to each other genetically. All 3 lived at the same time in Egypt).

  Yes there is real concrete EVIDENCE that the real Thutmose III died and an impostor took his place to keep the death a SECRET.  Can't have Gods being killed by Moses' God now can we?

   We have direct evidence for the Biblical account of boils & Passover in Pharaoh's house.
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color1
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« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2013, 09:00:09 PM »
« Edited: May 18, 2013, 09:05:22 PM by color1 »

Ernest, Biblical prophecies are not all vague.  It stands alone with it's supernatural credentials.

  I just gave you some that no one could say was back dated.
 The Bible says God did something special by expanding the universe -- a fact that science just confirmed the last 6 years. The universe expanded unthinkably in a picosecond.  The Bible stated the earth was round 3000 years ago.  It said the universe would be immense - 'declares the glory of God".  Science 100 years ago thought the universe to be not so large and small.

   The evidence for the Exodus is hard.  What we do have is a people came that built houses patterned after Egyptian style houses - not at all like the local Cannanites.  These people also worshipped ONE God, NOT like the locals who worshipped dozens and dozens of gods.  There is now developing a conquest trail (carbon dating) at Jerico, Hazor around 1410 BCE.  IF Exodus happened near 1470 then around 1410 would make sense for Josuha's conquest.  Error bar on dates is around +- 50 years
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color1
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« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2013, 10:12:33 PM »

As I understand it, these are the only 3 Pharaohs that show these skin lesions/boils of all the Pharaohs examined/CAT scanned/visually inspected.
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color1
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« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2013, 03:13:50 AM »
« Edited: May 19, 2013, 05:40:48 AM by color1 »

Just Google Jericho carbon dating 1430
  or Hazor carbon dating 1430.

I think the nanny buried/mummified in one of the adjacent sites also had these lesions.

I also think it very interesting that the conflict between Ishmael & Isaac continues today - a step brother conflict from Abraham's time lasting almost 4000 years.
  

""One consideration raised by archaeologists is the introduction of the so-called “four-room house.” This particular architectural feature is so peculiar to ancient Israel that it is called the “Israelite house.” This structure is a typical home featuring a four-room floor plan. Manfred Bietak, the Austrian archaeologist who excavates at Tel el-Daba` (the ancient city of Avaris) notes that he has excavated houses bearing this very floor plan—in Egypt (2003, 29/5:41-49,82-83). If the story of the Exodus is mere fiction, then why is a structure peculiar to ancient Israel, that emerges in Canaan shortly after the time of the Exodus, also found in Egypt in the same region said to have been occupied by the Israelites in the book of Exodus?""

""Israeli archaeologists have recently unearthed a palace at the Tel Hatzor National Park in Upper Galilee, revealing rare findings – jugs containing scorched wheat from some 3,400 years ago.

The find provides still more tangible evidence of the destruction of Canaanite city of Hatzor, an event dated at the mid-13th century B.C.E.

The jugs were found during the excavation of storerooms in what archaeologists say was a palace. In addition to the jugs, many other artifacts found at the site testify to a large fire that raged through the palace – sooty walls, bricks that burned and became rock-hard from the extreme heat, a ceiling that collapsed and burnt cedar wood beams.

The excavations are being conducted by a team from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, headed by Prof. Amnon Ben-Tor and Dr. Sharon Zuckerman.""

JERICHO:""Dr. Bryant Wood has effectively demonstrated that the massive stores of jars still filled with grain, found by Garstang and Kenyon, represent a city not destroyed by siege, but by battle after the spring harvest. Dr. Wood notes: “The pottery, stratigraphic considerations, scarab data and a Carbon-14 date all point to a destruction of the city around the end of Late Bronze I, about 1400 B.C.E.”"  Even the carbon 14 sample of Wood's revised to 1500s allows in the lower range to be 1410 BC.
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color1
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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2013, 07:27:40 AM »

[[Upper end of below data is 1410s ]]

TELL ES-SULTAN (JERICHO): RADIOCARBON RESULTS OF SHORT-LIVED CEREAL AND MULTIYEAR CHARCOAL SAMPLES FROM THE END OF THE MIDDLE BRONZE AGE
(2006)

METHODS The reported samples were analyzed at the conventional 14C laboratory of the Centre for Isotope Research, Groningen, The Netherlands, in 1991 and 1992. All samples were treated by the acid/ alkali/acid (AAA) method, combusted to CO2 and purified (Mook and Waterbolk 1985). The sam- ples were counted for 3-4 days to obtain the best possible precision; in most cases, enough material was available to use the large (25-liter) counter. We also report the 513C values, used for fractionation correction.

RESULTS Multiyear Charcoal Tamarisk is the predominant wood type of charcoal found on the tell; it is also the most common present-day shrub or small tree in the area (Western 1971; Hopf 1983). The 1214C dates of 10 char- coal samples from the end of the MBA gave surprisingly uniform dates (Table 1, Fig. 1). These results confirm 14C laboratory precision at Groningen and archaeological accuracy with regard to stratigraphic relations. The one exception (GrN-18538) consists of the coarse fraction (>0.425 mm) TABLE 1.
Sample Data and Results 14C date S13C

Run Lab no. (yr BP) (%o) date Material
GrN-18539 3312 ± 14 -23.0  Hordeum vulgare
GrN-18542 3288 ± 20 -23.54 Triticum sp.
GrN-18543 3331 ± 18 -23.31 Triticum sp.
GrN-18544 3312 ± 15 -23.28 cereal, fragmented
GrN-19063 3240 ± 18 -23.72 Hordeum vulgare
GrN-19064 3375 ±25 -21.86 cereal, fragmented
GrN-18363 3365 ±25 -26.28
GrN-18365 3360 ±25 -24.36 wood
GrN-18367 3350 ±20 -25.70 wood
GrN-18368 3393 ± 17 -26.02
GrN-18370 3380 ±25 -25.32
GrN-18536 3342± 17 -24.61 wood
GrN-18537 3384 ± 15 -25.98
GrN-19068 3350 ± 16 -25.72
GrN-19223 3388 ± 16 -25.62
GrN-18538 3614 ±20 -24.53 >0.425 mm
GrN-18721 3385 ±20 -24.98 <0.180 mm
GrN-18722 3368 ± 17 -24.92 0.180-0.425 mm
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color1
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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2013, 08:28:27 PM »

I think they calibrated it with known previous samples to make sure everything was working and dating as expected.  The calibration samples were known to be around 1200 BC.

They will be dating brand new samples from Jericho (late 2012) - carbonized wheat and lot's of it.  So we will have to wait.  Apparently any carbon dating in this region is disputed by 100 -150 years due to volcanic activity that affected carbon levels.  Tree ring seems like a good way to calibrate it.  But is that accurate? Don't trees only live a few hundred years?  Guess they know what they are doing.  We will have to wait for the new samples.  Wood in not good, since wood gets resused or has been in place for hundreds of years.  Wheat should the better time chronometer.
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color1
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« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2013, 08:16:28 PM »

Besides the skin lesions/boils on 3 generatons of Pharaohs, Thutmose III ( not the first born of Thutmose II - implies the real first born died & secretly subsituted for: Passover; Exodus implies the first borns in Pharaoh's house died during Passover),  We have genetic evidence (specific gene markers)  for the House of Cohen (priests directly form Aaron, Moses' brother).  [[Supports Exodus of Bible]

There seems to be a trail of Joshua conquest around 1430 BC (Jericho, Hazor, Ai(of Khirbet el-Maqatir). We have Israel type houses that follow the Egyptian floor/home plans directly from Avaris Egypt in the Nile delta; the worship of ONE God entering in Caanan/Palestine. [[Supports Joshua of the Bible]]

So there is evidence outside of the Bible for God's plagues against Egypt (skin lesions), Passover death of first born of Egypt including Pharaoh's house (Thutmose III the GREAT was not related to Thutmose II, so the real Thutmose III nust have died & secretly replaced).

There is evidence of great turmoil in Egypt around the time of Thutmose II thru Akenhanten: a women becomes Pharaoh, rejection of most of Egypt's gods by a Pharaoh.

Evidence buildiing for Joshua's Conquest of Caanan building: Jericho, Hazor, Ai near 1400 - 1500 BC.  Strong gentic markers for the house of Cohen (Aaron - Moses's brother). Through the genetic markers, one has evidence for Moses.

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color1
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« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2013, 05:32:23 AM »

The Cohen (house of Aaron, all trace their lineage from Aaron and as being priests of God from the Exodus days).  The DNA strongly supports their historical claim of one common male ancestor Aaron.  And if Aaron existed from Exodus days, then his brother the Bible claims is Moses.  That supports the claim for the existence of Moses and that the Biblical record is probably true.

From my perspective, a supernatural element can be seen here. 1) Egyptian mummification and the protection of Pharaoh mummies preserved the evidence for the Biblical plague; 2) the Pharaohs were preserved and the lineage texts/with children to know that Thutmose III was the first born of Thutmose II -- but the DNA of Pharaoh Thutmose III confirms that his father was NOT Thutmose II (he was a secret substitution). This supports the Biblical claim that even the god Pharaoh suffered loss of his first born at the Passover ( think of it, what are the odds that evidence exists today for the Passover???!!! - yet it does).  3)The other is that the kohens/Cohens (a derivative of Aaron claim they are the priestly line from Exodus days).  The DNA markers strongly backup their claim that they all descended from Aaron as priests from Exodus days. And if Aaron existed from Exodus days, the that gives credence to Moses the brother of Aaron being an actual historical figure from Exodus days.

To me the earliest Israelite homes being exactly like the homes from Egyptian Avaris (just before the time of the Exodus 1500 BCE) and TOTALLY different Caanan homes is PROOF for the Exodus.  The French excavators know that Avaris, in the Nile delta, was home to semetic  peoples.  The Bible says the Hebrews/Israelite settled in the Nile Delta.  The Israelites brought belief in the ONE God to the Levant/Palestine/Caanan.

I think they have discovered that the Iron age began a couple hundred years earlier than previously thought. There is evidence that the iron age started a couple hundred years earlier - preliminary findings(?). So let's wait for more evidence.  I think I read that somewhere in 2012 that the Hittites had iron earlier.

""Where or when such knowledge was first acquired would be difficult to pinpoint.  There is evidence that it [iron] was first used in the Zagros Mountains of what is now western Iran after 3500 B.C.""

Once again everything points to around 3430 BC (1430 BC) : destruction of Caananite cities carbon dating, the iron age existing with Hittiles.

  From my perspective, there is enough "outside" evidence to support the Biblical claims of plagues, Passover (Exodus), entering/conquering Caanan, priesthood & laws beginning during Exodus days (Cohans historical claim- dna to Aaron).
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color1
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« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2013, 06:30:08 AM »

Before Archeology found the "Hittites" the Bible said they existed (another reason the Bible could not be trusted to be historically accurate they said). 
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color1
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« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2013, 11:47:32 AM »

I remember correctly they found a chariot/wheel made with remenant of iron some where in Syria about 200 -300 years earlier than before.  That's if my memory is right.
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color1
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« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2013, 04:11:05 PM »

Would 200 years earlier solve all issues Ernest?

"bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2013/2013-01-51.html""


""The entire Iron Age sequence is now thought to be much earlier than previously thought, with some levels being re-dated by up to two hundred years.

The destruction of the monumental Early Phrygian citadel, for example, is now thought to have taken place in the late 9th century, rather than the early 7th century, BC. The implications of this revised chronology are substantial, not only for those interested in Phrygia and central Anatolia, but also for those interested in the Iron Age throughout the eastern Mediterranean. The new Gordion chronology has therefore generated a great deal of interest and excitement, as well as debate. This edited volume offers, for the first time, a comprehensive discussion of the new chronology, both from a methodological and an interpretive point of view. ""
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color1
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« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2013, 06:41:05 PM »

200 years earlier: If after complicated correlations with tree rings & pottery, etc the iron age (hittites in syria/levant) is moved earlier by 200 years, that would put iron chariots in northern canaan around 1500 - 1400 BC.  So imo all the dates are correlating around 1430ish BC/BCE/??? for the Joshua  Hebrew conquest of Canaan.

  More carbon-14 dating of thousands of seeds will confirm Hazor, Jericho, etc.
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color1
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« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2013, 07:48:16 PM »

The point is after complicated correlations, the iron age was moved up by 200 years.  The implication is if fhe same complicated correlation is used for other previously dated, they also would be moved up.  Each chapter dealt with the recorrectiion of previous carbon dated layers.

It's not just about one specific place. It's about the correlation/correction method moved the date by 200 years from the previous carbon dating of soil layers.

If the same correctiions are made in other parts of the Caanan/Turkey/etc, the iron age moves up 200 years.
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color1
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« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2013, 08:30:47 AM »
« Edited: June 01, 2013, 01:00:10 AM by color1 »

''Reconstructed third name ring with the name “Ishrael” (van der Veen,
Theis and Görg 2010: 18).
  
In summary, the authors of the new study believe that the name on the Berlin statue base fragment is that of Israel and that it was part of a name list originally written in the
Eighteenth Dynasty. This is much earlier than the appearance of the name Israel on the Merenptah Stela. Furthermore, they conclude that their findings “indeed suggest that
Proto-Israelites had migrated to Canaan sometime during the middle of the
second millennium BCE” (van der Veen, Theis and Görg 2010: 21).""

""The Hittites were rivals of ancient Egypt. The were powerful from the 20th to 13th
century B.C. and controlled an area that roughly corresponds to modern Turkey and Syria. Around 2000 B.C. the Hittites were unified under a king named Labarna.
A later king pushed their domain into Mesopotamia and Syria.
The empire lasted into 1650 B.C. A more powerful kingdom rose in 1450 B.C.
This kingdom possessed iron.""
 
modified 31 May 2013:
""   Having considered and dispensed with each of Hoffmeier’s several objections to this reading, including the difference between “s” and “sh,” what may or may not be a lamed or resh and whether the sculptor was consistent in his spelling, they then address whether the name found could refer to Biblical Israel. Noting the references to Ashkelon and Canaan, and their geographic proximity, van der Veen et al. ask rhetorically “what other name in the same general region would be so strikingly reminiscent of that of biblical Israel?” (Id. at 19.) Their answer is that there is “no linguistically feasible name” in any other known texts, so “‘Israel’ remains the most logical candidate.” (Id.)

         But how old is the Berlin pedestal relief? van der Veen et al. tentatively ascribe a date for the slab to Ramesses II (around 1279-1212 BCE), a later date being deemed unlikely on linguistic grounds. (Id. at 20.)  At the same time, they acknowledge that such a date “is by no means certain.” (Id.) Perhaps even more intriguing, they suggest that based on certain “archaic elements,” the names on the pedestal could have been “copied from an earlier source that could have had its origin during the first half of the Eighteenth Dynasty or perhaps earlier still . . . .” (Id. at 17.)  Parenthetically, Sarna dates Ramesses (Rameses) II to 1290-1224 BCE. He puts the 18th Dynasty at 1552-1306 BCE. (See Sarna, above, at 8, 10.)

         van der Veen et al. recognize that many scholars will have difficulty believing that Biblical Israel arrived in Palestine prior to Merneptah, especially as far back as the mid-Eighteenth Dynasty.  (van der Veen, above, at 20.) Yet a migration “nearer the middle of the second millennium BCE” is what they say the evidence suggests. (Id. at 21.)

         There is, of course, a lively debate about whether one or more actual migrations from Egypt might have occurred, when it or they might have occurred and how many individuals participated.  What cannot be denied, however, is that the writing on the stone known as Berlin no. 21687 is more than a phrase. It is evidence. It may or may not be reliable evidence of the claimed military victories, but if van der Veen et al. are correct, it appears to be rock solid evidence of the existence of a people known as Israel and at a time earlier, possibly even 200 years earlier, than any other hard evidence had indicated.""

Egyptians called them Israel, Yshael and Caananites called them Apiru (Hebrews) around 1400 to 1300 BC.


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color1
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« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2013, 09:45:44 AM »

""The  CHM was also found at equal frequency in Jews of both European and North African ancestry, indicating that it was in place before the communities separated about 1000 BC.  It was also found, using other genetic markers to calculate the approximate time at which the common ancestor of the contemporary Kohenim lived, that the original owner of the Cohen Modal Haplotype lived about 106 generations ago, placing the original possessor of the haplotype at about 33-3400 years ago, the approximate time period in which Aaron would have lived.""

DNA for Pharaohs, DNA for Aaron all point to 1430 BC time frame for Exodus; Avaris homestyle for first Hebrew settlement homes provides proof for Exodus of Hebrews/Isrealites from Egypt to Caanan;

should soon have thousands of grain samples from destruction of Hazor & Jericho around 1300 to 1500 BC (will have to wait till results published). Will they show 1430 +- 40 years?
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color1
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« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2013, 07:22:33 AM »
« Edited: May 31, 2013, 02:37:18 AM by color1 »

In regards the Cohens, they trace their lineage to Aaron (Levites) to the Exodus and to Moses.  The Bible also states this. The dna samples (larger sample set with each new dna study) of Cohens confirms that Aaron is indeed their male ancestor.

The Biblical account of plagues is confirmed in the mummies of the 3 Pharaohs !  This is amazing/supernatural.  The plague of boils/lesions affecting all Egyptians including the god Pharaohs is confirmed totally outside of the Bible.  The Passover plague of the death of the first born is also seen in the 3 Pharaohs -- Thutmose III the first born of Thutmose II is a secret substitution. (The real Thutmose III must have died - Passover plague).  This must have shaken the very fabric of Egyptian society and beliefs.  They had to keep secret that Moses' GOD could easily kill the Egyptian god Pharaoh at will.

The Hebrews came out of Egypt and built homes in the exact style as those from Avaris, Egypt in the Nile delta. The Nile delta is where the Bible says Joseph, the vicar of Egypt, settled Jacob and the 70 Israelites.  This is PROOF of the Exodus of Israelites/Hebrews into Caanan.

  The pottery dating of the destruction layers at Jericho & Hazor & others show a destruction around 1430ish BCE.  

The carbon-14 dating keeps getting revised/updated/disputed/re-sanctioned.  With the timeframe moving hundreds-of-years (hard to have confidence when all this is happening/happened in the last 50 years).  I as a lay person have to assume they know what they are doing.  But do they with carbon 14 dating?  Vesuvius erupts about every 700 years.  Assuming they know what they are doing: there are now THOUSANDS of wheat/grain samples from the destruction layer in question available & being carbon-14 tested from Hazor & Jericho.

Personally there is enough evidence for the conquest of Caanan/Joshua's conquest.

  There is direct evidence for the Biblical account of 2 plagues (boils,passover), exodus & conquest.  Theres is dna evidence for Aaron, the first priest during Exodus days, & therefore for Moses.

   the other plagues of Egypt (frogs, flies, darkness, gnats), the parting of the sea, the sojourn in the desert-- one can't realistically expect to find any evidence after 3000 years.

added 31 May 2013:
""At Tel Amarna, Egypt, cuneiform tablets from about the 14th c. BC were discovered, and they contain urgent pleas to the Egyptian Pharaoh Akenaten, asking him to do something about the "Apiru" which were invading in sizeable numbers and taking over parts of Canaan. --And again, as mentioned earlier, Dr. Frank Moore Cross of Harvard Universtiy states that the term "Apiru" is "the origin of the term 'Hebrews'." So, at about this time, there is a return and major influx of Hebrews back into Canaan --in large enough numbers to cause alarm in the current residents, and a plea to higher authorities in Egypt for help.

To confirm this "invasion" picture further, consider several lines from the Victory Stele of Pharaoh Merneptah, which was found in his funerary temple in Thebes. That granite monument has lines of heiroglyphics which commemorate the conquests of Merneptah in Canaan in about 1210 BC.""

From Apiru in Akhenaten's time (1350 BC) to Isreal by 1210 BC in Caanan.

Exodus happened 100+ years earlier than the Apiru (Hebrew) reference  under Thutmose II imo around 1480ish BC.

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« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2013, 08:53:58 AM »

Joshua in the Bible doesn't mention iron chariots.  It does clearly state that Joshua defeated the Hittites in Caanan.  I think Judges in the Bible states, that Israel could not drive out the people due to iron chariots - but that could imply a hundred years or more (or not) after Joshua's conquest.

Judges 1:19 "The Lord was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots."
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« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2013, 12:20:03 PM »

Yep I missed the references in Joshua. So the Bible clearly says that iron chariotes exited during Joshua's time.

In Joshua 11 defeating Hittites and an army assembled numerous as the sand with chariots and horses (no mention of iron chariots for this vast army). Joshua also defeated a long list of kings.

By Joshua 13, it says when Joshua was very old , God told him to allot the land -- in those intervening years - iron chariots came into the possesion of some peoples.  History says the Hittites/relatives.  How many years was that?  So perhaps the Bible records a military technology revolution in the making in real time.  When Joshua first began the invasion of Caanan & defeated the Hittites, there are mentions of chariots (nothing special).

By the time is he is very old - peoples now have iron chariots ( a military technology revolution  ).
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« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2013, 07:18:59 PM »
« Edited: June 04, 2013, 06:46:52 AM by color1 »

Somebodyelse's analyses copied and I think is interesting:

""One possible clue as to whom the Exodus pharaoh may be comes from an inscription from Queen Hatshepsut. She mentions that she was rebuilding a temple in Avaris, from where we mentioned earlier the shepherd kings ruled.
      The inscription states: "I have raised up that which was gone to ruins,  . . . since the Asiatics were in the midst of Avaris of the Northland and vagabonds were in the midst of them, overthrowing that which had been made. He (their leader) ruled without Re and did not act by divine command down to the reign of my majesty . . . I have made distant those whom the gods hate and the earth has carried off their footprints."  
       First of all, the statement "He" (their leader) could possibly be a reference to none other then Moses himself. Note that she said “He did not follow Re” who was a false god of Egypt. From her statement it appears that Israel was in Egypt, down to or right before her reign. So this would indicate that either her father Thutmose I or her husband Thutmose II with whom she coreigned as queen, would be candidates for the Exodus Pharaoh.
      Another really interesting fact about this inscription is that 'James Breasted,' who compiled a book "Ancient Records of Egypt from the Eighteenth Dynasty,” made a note on this inscription concerning the Egyptian word translated as the “Asiatics.” It is either (sm-mw) or (s-mw).  In Egyptian hieroglyphics "sm" means (a pass of property) and “mw” means (water), which would refer to "the people whose property passed through the water,”  a possible reference to the parting of the Red sea and Israel departing through it with all their belongings. The alternative translation would be  "s" = (basin, body of water, sea) and "mw" = (water) which could refer to "the people of the basin water or we would say the river delta.” Which would describe the land of Goshen and the area in which Israel was said to have settled.    
      Which one of the two translations is correct is unsure, since the wall where the inscription is found was in very poor condition. Both of these Egyptian symbols look very similar. ("sm" is a rectangular box with a set of legs walking on the bottom of the box, whereas "s" is a rectangular box with what looks like a slanted roman numeral 2 just below the box).
      Another inscription from Thutmose III, who coreigned along with Hatshepsut, also indicates that the Israelites had left Egypt.  
       In a hymn he wrote to his god, Amon-Re, he states: "it devours those who are in the marshes . . .  cut down are the heads of the Asiatics (<> mw), there is not a remnant of them."  
       So it appears that either at his time, or just before, there was no Israelite remaining in the marsh areas of the Nile Delta. ""
 
Once again imo, Thutmose II is the Pharaoh of the Exodus.  By Thutmose III asiatics had left  Goshen/Nile Delta area (Israelites and other peoples left during the Exodus the Bible says).

 
June 4, 2013:  another quote from someonelse:

""Gardiner writes concerning the death of Thutmose II,: "Despite the terse way in which the fact is recorded, there is no reason to think that Tuthmosis died other than a normal death." If he were the Pharaoh who ruined Egypt however, there would be every reason for a terse report of his death! Gardiner continues his narrative, "An almost undecorated tomb is confidently ascribed to [Thutmose II], and from its neglect one might conjecture that no one cared very much what was his fate; his funerary temple, is a paltry affair." the lack of decoration could indicate a sudden death and it is clear that his life and death were not recorded for posterity with any great reverence or enthusiasm.
...
Mertz 9 follows Breasted 7 in giving an interesting translation concerning the death of Thutmose II, "He went forth to heaven, having mingled with the gods." This seems the wrong way round for the usual report of a pharaoh's death he would normally have been reported as ascending to heaven before mingling with the gods, but this report could be literally true from the Egyptians point of view, as God said to Moses, "See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh." (7: 1)""

  Thutmose II did NOT receive the usual pomp and decorum associated with a Pharoah's death and entombment.
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color1
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« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2013, 08:27:18 PM »

Snowguy,  like I said before, there should be only 1 plague that still after 3400 years should show up in the Pharoahs (probably 3 generations: old adult, young adult, youngster/baby) -- assuming the Biblical story to be true. If the Biblical story of Moses and the plagues are true, the one of the boils affecting everyone -- even Pharoah and his family & court -- should be present in the mummies. 
   The evidence is there!!! Thutmose II and two succeeding Pharoahs show signs of skin lesions/boils.  These are the only 3 Pharoahs showing these skin lesions.
   Everyone said (until last year 2012) that Thutmose II could NOT NOT be the Biblical Pharoah of the Exodus, because he had a first born son who became Thutmose III (perhaps the greatest Pharaoh ever).  The Biblical story has the Passover killing every(except Isrealites) first born male in Egypt including Pharaoh's house. In 2012, dna showed that Thutmose II is NOT the father of Thutnmose III (the first born male) of Thutmose II.  The Egyptian records clearly show that Thutmose III was the first born male of Thutmose II.  A secret substitution must have taken place, and the impostor still clamed to be the first born maie of Thutmose II.  This impostor became probably the greatest Pharaoh of Egypt.  The real Thutmose III must have died -- & the Egyptian court took great pains to hide the fact -- until of course the year 2012.  They fooled the world for 3400 years!
   So if the Biblical story is true, the physical evidence points to Thutmose II as the Pharoah of the Exodus and the one Moses confronted.  What is amazing to me is that after 3400 years, evidence still exists that verifies the Biblical account of plagues (boils) and the Passover.  Amazing!!!
   By the reign of Thutmose III, asiatics no longer existed in the Nile Delta.   During Tutmose II/Haspeth's reign, an inscription indicates that asiatics near Avaris were undesirable and perhaps forced out.

   The outside existing evidence is clear, if the Biblical account is true, then Thutmose II must be the Pharoah who Moses confronted and who God made an example of to the world.  Thutmose II is the Pharoah of the Exodus.  I see dates for Thutmose II death of 1479, 1491, 1504, 1518 BC.

Snowguy all the other plagues (blood, grasshoppers, gnats/flies, darkness, hail) can never be verified by outside existing evidence, but God preserved two (boils, Passover) even after 3400 years.
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