The extent of inequality in the US
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  The extent of inequality in the US
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Author Topic: The extent of inequality in the US  (Read 4727 times)
Antonio the Sixth
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« on: March 04, 2013, 11:32:18 PM »

Just stumbled upon that enlightening video:

http://www.upworthy.com/9-out-of-10-americans-are-completely-wrong-about-this-mind-blowing-fact-2?g=3

Can't really say I'm surprised, but seeing it that way makes it even more shocking.

And of course, the most striking thing is that 92% of Americans support a distribution of wealth more egalitarian than is found even in the most advanced social democracies. Says a lot about the right's ability to manipulate public opinion - to the point that one of the two major parties can openly advocate for policies that would make the distribution even more lopsided. That's just scary.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2013, 02:35:29 AM »

Yes, many Americans are either not informed or worse, misinformed about who really benefits from right-wing economic policies. The Right preys on that ignorance and stokes the fires of resentment (for results of this, look no further than the increased racial polarization in American politics, or the urban-rural divide, etc.). And the professional pundit class explains to us all why the common people's "betters" deserve to rule them, on a 24/7 basis.
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jfern
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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2013, 02:46:26 AM »

One thing the video didn't mention. The least wealthy few percent are going to have a negative net worth.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2013, 08:44:05 AM »

One thing the video didn't mention. The least wealthy few percent are going to have a negative net worth.

few percent?  isn't it like a fifth or a quarter?  even those who live like they are in the fabled middle class often are indentured with $200k of student debt.
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opebo
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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2013, 12:06:35 PM »

Nowadays I would imagine something like 50% of Americans owe more than their 'assets'.
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Torie
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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2013, 05:07:59 PM »

Yet I have seen polls that 70% or something are hostile to the estate tax. Go figure.
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Torie
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« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2013, 05:11:02 PM »

Nowadays I would imagine something like 50% of Americans owe more than their 'assets'.

It is true that the net worth of Americans is shockingly low (excluding of course, the present value of anticipated social security receipts). Even for my age group, the median is something like 150K.
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krazen1211
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« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2013, 05:50:47 PM »

The present value of social security can only be considered $0 as Social Security is under the considerable risk that Congress can defund it at any time it chooses.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2013, 06:15:30 PM »

Yet I have seen polls that 70% or something are hostile to the estate tax. Go figure.

As I said, the right (and its corporate allies) is pretty good at manipulating the public into supporting things that goes diametrically against their interests and their aspirations.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2013, 10:00:53 PM »

The present value of social security can only be considered $0 as Social Security is under the considerable risk that Congress can defund it at any time it chooses.

That doesn't fit the accounting standards for writing off assets. You have to make a best estimate of what the cash flows/interest rates will be and go from there.
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Link
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« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2013, 10:25:11 AM »

Yet I have seen polls that 70% or something are hostile to the estate tax. Go figure.

As I said, the right (and its corporate allies) is pretty good at manipulating the public into supporting things that goes diametrically against their interests and their aspirations.

Just have the people cling to their "guns and religion..." while you steal all the money.  So Obama was right once again.
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TNF
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« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2013, 11:23:51 AM »

Yet I have seen polls that 70% or something are hostile to the estate tax. Go figure.

Depends on how the issue is framed. The Republicans like to say that it's big government taxing you when you die, rather than what it really is, which is taxing the hell out of people like the Kardashians who contribute nothing to society and live off daddy's accomplishments.
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Politico
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« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2013, 03:04:00 PM »
« Edited: March 06, 2013, 03:11:28 PM by Politico »

Older people remember what it was like when the top marginal tax rate was 70%, and even middle class folks paid rates higher than the top marginal tax rate today. They remember what it was like when Big Government was completely out of control with inflation in the double-digits, unemployment in the double-digits, shortages for gasoline because of price ceilings, etc.

The reason why so many younger people favor increased taxation and more Big Government that taxes-and-spends like crazy is because they've yet to experience THEIR tax rates going through the roof to fund Big Government. If you think the tax increase that happened in January is where it ends, that is not the case if most Democrats get their way in the midterms next year. Congressional Republicans and the few remaining conservative Democrats are the only reason why we have yet to return to out-of-control Big Government reminiscent of what we saw in the 1970s.
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opebo
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« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2013, 04:31:45 PM »

Older people remember what it was like when the top marginal tax rate was 70%, and even middle class folks paid rates higher than the top marginal tax rate today. They remember what it was like when Big Government was completely out of control with inflation in the double-digits, unemployment in the double-digits, shortages for gasoline because of price ceilings, etc.

The reason why so many younger people favor increased taxation and more Big Government that taxes-and-spends like crazy is because they've yet to experience THEIR tax rates going through the roof to fund Big Government. If you think the tax increase that happened in January is where it ends, that is not the case if most Democrats get their way in the midterms next year. Congressional Republicans and the few remaining conservative Democrats are the only reason why we have yet to return to out-of-control Big Government reminiscent of what we saw in the 1970s.

Dude, in the 1970s people had union jobs.  50% of a fat salary earned the easy way is a lot better than  100% of a mattress under the bridge.
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20RP12
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« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2013, 04:56:11 PM »

I was just getting ready to post this video. Absolutely mind blowing.
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Lief 🗽
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« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2013, 05:54:43 PM »

Older people remember what it was like when the top marginal tax rate was 70%, and even middle class folks paid rates higher than the top marginal tax rate today. They remember what it was like when Big Government was completely out of control with inflation in the double-digits, unemployment in the double-digits, shortages for gasoline because of price ceilings, etc.

The reason why so many younger people favor increased taxation and more Big Government that taxes-and-spends like crazy is because they've yet to experience THEIR tax rates going through the roof to fund Big Government. If you think the tax increase that happened in January is where it ends, that is not the case if most Democrats get their way in the midterms next year. Congressional Republicans and the few remaining conservative Democrats are the only reason why we have yet to return to out-of-control Big Government reminiscent of what we saw in the 1970s.

What does any of that have to do with the subject of this thread?
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2013, 06:13:37 PM »

Older people remember what it was like when the top marginal tax rate was 70%, and even middle class folks paid rates higher than the top marginal tax rate today. They remember what it was like when Big Government was completely out of control with inflation in the double-digits, unemployment in the double-digits, shortages for gasoline because of price ceilings, etc.

The reason why so many younger people favor increased taxation and more Big Government that taxes-and-spends like crazy is because they've yet to experience THEIR tax rates going through the roof to fund Big Government. If you think the tax increase that happened in January is where it ends, that is not the case if most Democrats get their way in the midterms next year. Congressional Republicans and the few remaining conservative Democrats are the only reason why we have yet to return to out-of-control Big Government reminiscent of what we saw in the 1970s.

What does any of that have to do with the subject of this thread?

That's the effect reality does to conservative hacks. They are unable to process it, so they crash and start mindlessly repeating irrelevant talking points.
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Franknburger
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« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2013, 09:34:55 PM »

The diagnosis is clear. But what can be the cure? Income tax increases might reduce the dynamics, but would leave the underlying pattern of wealth distribution untouched. Plus, you risk running into the Big Government scenario adressed by politico.

Wealth taxation and successive redistribution? We are not talking about land ownership anymore, this wealth is made up of bonds, shares, and derivatives. Highly mobile, and also so interlinked with the 'real economy' that you have to be careful to not kill the base of wealth generation altogether.
It is not as simple as the video graphics suggest - take some greenbacks from the big pile to the right and give it to the poor guys on the left. In practice, it would be more like transfering 0.0x% of Microsoft or Apple shares to each single mother. Interesting experiment, for sure, but I am unsure about the outcome. Would that really be a long-term redistribution of wealth, or just  a short-term cash-transfer, with all its consequences (stock exchange crash, inflation, better-fed children, etc.) ?

I don't have an answer yer.
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opebo
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« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2013, 07:11:02 AM »

The diagnosis is clear. But what can be the cure? Income tax increases might reduce the dynamics, but would leave the underlying pattern of wealth distribution untouched. Plus, you risk running into the Big Government scenario adressed by politico.

Wealth taxation and successive redistribution? We are not talking about land ownership anymore, this wealth is made up of bonds, shares, and derivatives. Highly mobile, and also so interlinked with the 'real economy' that you have to be careful to not kill the base of wealth generation altogether.
It is not as simple as the video graphics suggest - take some greenbacks from the big pile to the right and give it to the poor guys on the left. In practice, it would be more like transfering 0.0x% of Microsoft or Apple shares to each single mother. Interesting experiment, for sure, but I am unsure about the outcome. Would that really be a long-term redistribution of wealth, or just  a short-term cash-transfer, with all its consequences (stock exchange crash, inflation, better-fed children, etc.) ?

I don't have an answer yer.

Extremely high minimum wages, mandatory unionization of all jobs, 20- hour work weeks, confiscatory taxation, elimination of imports from low-wage countries.  All these are somewhat hopeful ideas.  However I'm skeptical of any limitations placed on the slave-master that don't involve guillotining him.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2013, 07:23:56 AM »

Yet I have seen polls that 70% or something are hostile to the estate tax. Go figure.

As I said, the right (and its corporate allies) is pretty good at manipulating the public into supporting things that goes diametrically against their interests and their aspirations.

Just have the people cling to their "guns and religion..." while you steal all the money.  So Obama was right once again.

There's an easy way to fix this... Stop being so anti-gun/religion. Seriously, I would vote Dem in a heartbeat if I thought they would end abortion.
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Franknburger
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« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2013, 10:36:32 AM »

Extremely high minimum wages, mandatory unionization of all jobs, 20- hour work weeks, confiscatory taxation,

Does not redistribute wealth, just income. And while income would probably become spread much more equally, i tend to believe that maybe 10% would have more, 20% a little less, 60% quite less and 10% much less than now. Not a very good deal.

.. elimination of imports from low-wage countries. 

Yeah, great! The reason the wages are so low in these countries is that people there have much more wealth than the average American, so they don't need wage income anymore. They just sit for fun at the sewing machine 10 hours a day. You're absolutely right, that is really the key to making the world a much better and fairer place.
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Politico
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« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2013, 11:21:15 AM »
« Edited: March 07, 2013, 11:24:17 AM by Politico »

Older people remember what it was like when the top marginal tax rate was 70%, and even middle class folks paid rates higher than the top marginal tax rate today. They remember what it was like when Big Government was completely out of control with inflation in the double-digits, unemployment in the double-digits, shortages for gasoline because of price ceilings, etc.

The reason why so many younger people favor increased taxation and more Big Government that taxes-and-spends like crazy is because they've yet to experience THEIR tax rates going through the roof to fund Big Government. If you think the tax increase that happened in January is where it ends, that is not the case if most Democrats get their way in the midterms next year. Congressional Republicans and the few remaining conservative Democrats are the only reason why we have yet to return to out-of-control Big Government reminiscent of what we saw in the 1970s.

What does any of that have to do with the subject of this thread?

That's the effect reality does to conservative hacks. They are unable to process it, so they crash and start mindlessly repeating irrelevant talking points.

Are you offering a way to change the current level of income distribution that does not involve more intervention from the government? The market is diverse and unbiased. There is no committee of politicians or bureaucrats deciding how income and wealth ends up being distributed. For better or worse, market forces have largely determined the current outcome. That is a heck of a lot more fair than crony committees determining who gets what with respect to resources.

My point is that more intervention will do more harm than good. The average person does not want to go back to Jimmy Carter's heyday just because "the top 1%" will only earn so much more than the average person due to excessive taxation on everybody. The average person would rather stick with the current level of income and wealth distribution than go back to being taxed to death and living with double-digit inflation.
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« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2013, 11:46:14 AM »

Older people remember what it was like when the top marginal tax rate was 70%, and even middle class folks paid rates higher than the top marginal tax rate today. They remember what it was like when Big Government was completely out of control with inflation in the double-digits, unemployment in the double-digits, shortages for gasoline because of price ceilings, etc.

The reason why so many younger people favor increased taxation and more Big Government that taxes-and-spends like crazy is because they've yet to experience THEIR tax rates going through the roof to fund Big Government. If you think the tax increase that happened in January is where it ends, that is not the case if most Democrats get their way in the midterms next year. Congressional Republicans and the few remaining conservative Democrats are the only reason why we have yet to return to out-of-control Big Government reminiscent of what we saw in the 1970s.

What does any of that have to do with the subject of this thread?

That's the effect reality does to conservative hacks. They are unable to process it, so they crash and start mindlessly repeating irrelevant talking points.

Are you offering a way to change the current level of income distribution that does not involve more intervention from the government? The market is diverse and unbiased. There is no committee of politicians or bureaucrats deciding how income and wealth ends up being distributed. For better or worse, market forces have largely determined the current outcome. That is a heck of a lot more fair than crony committees determining who gets what with respect to resources.

My point is that more intervention will do more harm than good. The average person does not want to go back to Jimmy Carter's heyday just because "the top 1%" will only earn so much more than the average person due to excessive taxation on everybody. The average person would rather stick with the current level of income and wealth distribution than go back to being taxed to death and living with double-digit inflation.

The fact that you legitimately think that these are the only conceivable policy options is telling. You're a big fan of 1980, as a year in politics, in general, almost to the exclusion of other years.
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ag
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« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2013, 12:55:24 PM »

The present value of social security can only be considered $0 as Social Security is under the considerable risk that Congress can defund it at any time it chooses.

Unless either you estimate the probability of Social Security being completely defunded by Congress before you get a single dollar out of it to be equal to exactly 100%, or you believe that with positive probability the Congress will start charging you for being alive past the retirement age, expected present value of Social Securtiy would have to be positive. So, which of the two above-mentioned options reflects your beliefs?
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snowguy716
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« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2013, 07:11:16 PM »

The only way this will be solved is through higher pay and reduced hours, or through steeply progressive taxation with transfer payments made to the poor or massive infrastructure spending (which we do need right now).

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