Hugo Chavez has died

[Leftbehind]

One of the few statesmen left who I respected. RIP Chavez.

[Niemeyerite]

Rest in peace to a man who ultimately did more good than bad to his country.

[Beet]

RIP.



Any guy who would do this can't be all bad.

[WMS]

Ugh, I agree with you for the most part, but I have never seen Lief defend al-Assad nor say anything anti-American.

Hmm, you appear to be right - I've confused him with Tweed and Opebo. Well, here's the first apology to Lief, give me a sec to issue a more direct one...

[WMS]

I support Bashar al-Assad? Wow, that's news to me. I like Chavez because he was anti-American? That's also news to me! Kindly fuck off if you're going to resort to making up what I think or believe in.

Chavez's foreign policy has nothing to do with my opinion of him (and in fact I think his buddying up to the Iranian regime, for example, was gross). I like him because he was a decent man who tried to make his country a better place and fought against entrenched interests that had perpetuated inequality and stood against democracy in Venezuela for decades before Chavez was elected.

I checked and you are correct - I can't find anything like that. I appear to have confused you with Tweed and Opebo. So I'm sorry about that.

I am no fan of the entrenched interests that were in Venezuela before, it's just that Chavez was more interested in his own power than in helping the poor - he didn't need to do his undemocratic things in order to do that.

[WMS]

See, WMS, all that events are debatable and I'd love to discuss them another time in another place. It's only that it's not appropriate now turning into a debate between pro-Chavez and anti-Chavez hacks. It's really hilarious because I'm not a Chavez fan and I have some criticism towards his figure, but some people hates him in a way so ridiculous and disproportionate, product of some media hyperboles -- the man wasn't a dictator, try to keep this in your minds-- that I typed some replies on this topic.

Heh, another time, then. I've certainly debated it enough on-and-off over the years: if I'm not mistaken I was the very first person to begin a thread about Venezuela back in 2004, although I might have missed something. And I am no lover of rightist tyranny either.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

RIP.



Any guy who would do this can't be all bad.

To the contrary, anyone who puts a silly outfit on an animal is most definitely EVIL.

[Zioneer]

My opinion of Chavez

Good:
Helped the poor in his country
Gave Venezula self-esteem, which Latin American countries seem to lack (not their fault, what with all the US-supported coups)
Helped better relations between ethnic groups in Venezuela (or so I heard)
Didn't bother with violent measures most of the time
Stood up to the US in a non-violent way
Allowed opposition groups to exist freely (though minus points for controlling a media apparatus vilifying them, he didn't need to do that)

Bad:
Egomanic (unavoidable with helping Venezulan pride, I guess)
Soft authoritarian (unavoidable with opposition media literally supporting a coup against him, but still scummy)
Went about opposing the US in a laughable way (though points for it being non-violent). His anti-American moves weren't very effective.


So I don't really know how I feel towards his death. I mean, I'm having the knee-jerk response of "good, he's dead", but intellectually it seems neutral if not a bad thing that he's dead.

[Vosem]

Because of the possibility for violent impossibility, his death in and of itself is a bad thing, but Hugo Chavez was an awful person and an awful leader and he won't be mourned. By me, by my Colombian immigrant biology partner, or by the people on Twitter who are hashtagging 'HugoChavezIsDead', all one word, in English. I don't know what anyone else thinks.

[LastVoter]

Thatcher and Chavez really aren't comparable at all, sorry guy.

Your a horrible person, you know that right?

That may be, but my point still stands. Chavez nationalized oil companies and took a lit bit of the wealth from the richest strata of Venezuelan society to redistribute to those in extreme poverty. Thatcher destroyed and economically devastated entire communities across northern England in an ideological crusade.

LOL. I've never heard of people killed by Chavez regime. It seems that the propaganda machine works well.

He is not sending in tanks to Tiananmen Square, but the man was no hero. He funded FARC, the terrorist group that has lead to thousands of deaths in its war against Columbia.

You know that the FARC was active, alive and kicking in Colombia decades prior to Chavez. Do you want to make the man who has died guilty of all the dead in the neighbouring country? Do you know something about narcos, paracas and other lovely Colombian gentlemen? Come on, it's not the moment for the "Chavez is Evil" time. Watch Fox News if you want that kind of primary and biased stuff. By the way, I'll never claim that the man was a hero, but certainly he was democratically elected, like it or not. And, as some people is trying to tell you, not all his record is so bad.

FARC has been around since the 1950s. That is common knowledge. Quit talking down to me; I am not another Palin-Beck rightwinger.

If you're not, you really should quit acting like one (and show basic human dignity).

Human dignity is for those who deserve it; human dignity is reserved for respectable leaders, like Lula in Brazil.

Lula is a big fan of Chavez and would certainly disagree with you that he is not deserving of respect.

Thatcher may or may have not been the best leader, but she did not abuse human rights and disregard civil liberties. You are missing my point. Lula was a leftist, and a fan of Chavez. But Lula was not a thug.

Remember the miners strike...

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Thatcher and Chavez really aren't comparable at all, sorry guy.

Your a horrible person, you know that right?

That may be, but my point still stands. Chavez nationalized oil companies and took a lit bit of the wealth from the richest strata of Venezuelan society to redistribute to those in extreme poverty. Thatcher destroyed and economically devastated entire communities across northern England in an ideological crusade.

LOL. I've never heard of people killed by Chavez regime. It seems that the propaganda machine works well.

He is not sending in tanks to Tiananmen Square, but the man was no hero. He funded FARC, the terrorist group that has lead to thousands of deaths in its war against Columbia.

You know that the FARC was active, alive and kicking in Colombia decades prior to Chavez. Do you want to make the man who has died guilty of all the dead in the neighbouring country? Do you know something about narcos, paracas and other lovely Colombian gentlemen? Come on, it's not the moment for the "Chavez is Evil" time. Watch Fox News if you want that kind of primary and biased stuff. By the way, I'll never claim that the man was a hero, but certainly he was democratically elected, like it or not. And, as some people is trying to tell you, not all his record is so bad.

FARC has been around since the 1950s. That is common knowledge. Quit talking down to me; I am not another Palin-Beck rightwinger.

If you're not, you really should quit acting like one (and show basic human dignity).

Human dignity is for those who deserve it; human dignity is reserved for respectable leaders, like Lula in Brazil.

Lula is a big fan of Chavez and would certainly disagree with you that he is not deserving of respect.

Thatcher may or may have not been the best leader, but she did not abuse human rights and disregard civil liberties. You are missing my point. Lula was a leftist, and a fan of Chavez. But Lula was not a thug.

Remember the miners strike...

That is debatable; something Hugo Chavez's human rights record is not.

[Donerail]

And hopefully his oppressive, undemocratic regime shall die with him.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

And hopefully his oppressive, undemocratic regime shall die with him.

By the looks of the new President, Chef Boyardee Diosdado Cabello things will remain the same for the next 30 days at least. Hopefully Caprilles gets in. Doubtful, however.

[Lief 🗽]

And hopefully his oppressive, undemocratic regime shall die with him.

Yes, winning 13 out of 14 elections during his presidency is very undemocratic. Hopefully the heroic lovers of democracy that attempted to overthrow him in a coup will now replace him.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

HP

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Yes, winning 13 out of 14 elections during his presidency is very undemocratic. Hopefully the heroic lovers of democracy that attempted to overthrow him in a coup will now replace him.

Dictators win elections all the time.

[Oakvale]

Because of the possibility for violent impossibility, his death in and of itself is a bad thing, but Hugo Chavez was an awful person and an awful leader and he won't be mourned. By me, by my Colombian immigrant biology partner, or by the people on Twitter who are hashtagging 'HugoChavezIsDead', all one word, in English. I don't know what anyone else thinks.

rofl

[Vosem]

The hope right now is that a hardcore capitalist gets in, someone along the lines of Thatcher who is willing to put Bolivarianism decisively in the past.

Because of the possibility for violent impossibility, his death in and of itself is a bad thing, but Hugo Chavez was an awful person and an awful leader and he won't be mourned. By me, by my Colombian immigrant biology partner, or by the people on Twitter who are hashtagging 'HugoChavezIsDead', all one word, in English. I don't know what anyone else thinks.

rofl

I hope you realize the second sentence is meant to be taken for laughs (as is basically any reference I make to Twitter)...

[Donerail]

And hopefully his oppressive, undemocratic regime shall die with him.

Yes, winning 13 out of 14 elections during his presidency is very undemocratic. Hopefully the heroic lovers of democracy that attempted to overthrow him in a coup will now replace him.

Properly, would the quotes go around 'winning' or 'elections'?

[Vosem]

And hopefully his oppressive, undemocratic regime shall die with him.

Yes, winning 13 out of 14 elections during his presidency is very undemocratic. Hopefully the heroic lovers of democracy that attempted to overthrow him in a coup will now replace him.

Properly, would the quotes go around 'winning' or 'elections'?

Both, I would imagine...

[RogueBeaver]

Vosem, you do know that Capriles is a Lulan, right? And that Lulaism is the only viable alternative to Chavismo?

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

And hopefully his oppressive, undemocratic regime shall die with him.

Yes, winning 13 out of 14 elections during his presidency is very undemocratic. Hopefully the heroic lovers of democracy that attempted to overthrow him in a coup will now replace him.

Properly, would the quotes go around 'winning' or 'elections'?

When you live in a country as blighted as Venezuela, the option to vote to confiscate the Gringo's stuff is attractive.

[Lief 🗽]

Venezuela has some of the freest, best-run elections in the world (certainly better than those in the United States). But if it makes you feel better to put quotations around things, be my guest.

[ag]

And hopefully his oppressive, undemocratic regime shall die with him.

Yes, winning 13 out of 14 elections during his presidency is very undemocratic. Hopefully the heroic lovers of democracy that attempted to overthrow him in a coup will now replace him.

Actually, it is losing that 1 out of 14 that makes him a democrat, not winning.

Venezuela under Chavez was a deeply flawed, unequal, corrupt democracy - but a democracy, nonetheless.  It was, however, an illiberal democracy.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The hope right now is that a hardcore capitalist gets in, someone along the lines of Thatcher who is willing to put Bolivarianism decisively in the past.

People like you are the reason why the Venezuelan people saw Chavez as the only acceptable alternative.


Also, anyone who seriously claims Chavez didn't win his elections fair and square is an idiot.