Hugo Chavez has died

[ag]

If you can't say anything nice in the minutes after someone's death, stfu. Seriously trashy. I'm not a Chavez fanboy by any strecth, but have some basic respect for human dignity.

[ag]

Venezuela has some of the freest, best-run elections in the world (certainly better than those in the United States). But if it makes you feel better to put quotations around things, be my guest.

Well, that's a wild exaggeration. They are, certainly, not stolen wholesale. But calling them freest and best-run is denigrating to a lot of places that do it better and freer - US included.

[ag]

Also, anyone who seriously claims Chavez didn't win his elections fair and square is an idiot.

"Fair" might be a tad of an exaggeration. In a country, where so many people depend on the government for job and sustainance, serious pressure was often applied to make sure that those people vote the right way. Nor has access to media been at all fair. Not even mentioning the minor stuff, like the Singaporean-style nationwide gerrymandering of congressional districts in favor of the government that would make any US state blush (if I recall correctly, last time in the capital they had opposition getting a few dosen votes more than the government - and 2 seats, against 5 seats the government got). And, of course, just in case there has always been loyal electoral commission leadership - though, it seems, that hasn't been much used, at least not too blatantly.

Still, dictatorship this does not make.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

If you can't say anything nice in the minutes after someone's death, stfu. Seriously trashy. I'm not a Chavez fanboy by any strecth, but have some basic respect for human dignity.

The rules of dignity on this forum? I reiterate my earlier post.

Hypocrites, all of you.

I would like to add, that to those here calling Chavez's opponents "trashy", there was a thread called "Were gonna have a party when Thatcher dies." I know for a fact that half of you would celebrate the death of Dick Cheney, who was just as evil during his time in office, if not more evil, than Chavez ever was. So please, get a little bit of consistency in your hypocritical minds.

Aaaah, "some of you are assholes so I have to be an asshole too" mentality.

It's not surprising that there are vast segments of the British population eagerly awaiting this horrible woman's death.

It's not surprising that there are vast segments of the British population eagerly awaiting this horrible woman's death.

Oh don't be ridiculous.

I think you are being ridiculous, who really doesn't want Thatcher to die, if you think about the negative effect she had on the islands.

It's not surprising that there are vast segments of the British population eagerly awaiting this horrible woman's death.

Oh don't be ridiculous.

You clearly know loads about the UK. It's true that a large portion of the country hold nothing but resentment for her because of the damage she did to swathes of the UK.

"We're havin' a party when Thatcher dies" is a common football chant, for example.

No one is calling for her to be shot; no one (well, except the Provos) wanted that in the 1980s either. It's just that a lot of people will be satisfied at her passing. I suppose that might come across as a little ugly (and if I'm being honest it sort of is) but you have to understand that it is a reaction to something that was also rather ugly.

She defined large sections of British society as enemies - personal enemies - and shaped policies accordingly. If you do that, then you don't get to expect those same people to show even a basic level of respect. The political is personal sometimes...

[Obamanation]

The right-wing nonsense on this thread is disgustingly nauseating.

RIP.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

The right-wing nonsense on this thread is disgustingly nauseating.

RIP.

Did you read my above post. What I found on Thatcher here is nauseating, not a thug like Chavez.

[Nhoj]

Venezuela has some of the freest, best-run elections in the world (certainly better than those in the United States). But if it makes you feel better to put quotations around things, be my guest.

They won the last parliamentary elections in large part with gerrymandering, so your putting the US system as one of the best run elections in the world by that logic.

[Obamanation]

The right-wing nonsense on this thread is disgustingly nauseating.

RIP.

Did you read my above post. What I found on Thatcher here is nauseating, not a thug like Chavez.

Obvious double standard is obvious.

[Vosem]

Vosem, you do know that Capriles is a Lulan, right? And that Lulaism is the only viable alternative to Chavismo?

Oh, I know. I never mentioned Capriles by name. I really have no idea who 'someone like Thatcher' might be, but it's definitely necessary for Venezuela to reverse Chavismo.

Venezuela has some of the freest, best-run elections in the world (certainly better than those in the United States). But if it makes you feel better to put quotations around things, be my guest.

http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/0/0/3/4/6/5/8/2/1/Lol-94249156205.jpeg#lol%20450x408

The hope right now is that a hardcore capitalist gets in, someone along the lines of Thatcher who is willing to put Bolivarianism decisively in the past.

People like you are the reason why the Venezuelan people saw Chavez as the only acceptable alternative.

Teenagers? Native Russian speakers? The nearsighted? Westlake High School students? People who have played 'Baseball Player #1' in Thornton Wilder's Our Town? People who prefer tea to coffee? Elaborate.

Because I thought Chavez' victory was along the lines of Berlusconi's in 1994 (or, for that matter, Hitler's in 1932) -- we're tired of the entire system before this, we're gonna change it and we don't care who gets power because we do. Such elections can be very dangerous.

Also, anyone who seriously claims Chavez didn't win his elections fair and square is an idiot.

He didn't. One can make the claim he would've won anyway (a la Putin), but Chavez' had control over the media, had severely gerrymandered the entire country, and had nationalized many industries to put so as many voters under his control as possible. Now, Chavez wasn't hated in Venezuela, so perhaps he would've won anyway. But saying 'unfair elections are OK because the dude running them would've won anyway', while in many cases true, is a very illiberal argument to make.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Venezuela has some of the freest, best-run elections in the world (certainly better than those in the United States). But if it makes you feel better to put quotations around things, be my guest.

I wouldn't go that far, but they certainly deserve a better score than a 5 for political freedom from Freedom House.

[patrick1]

If you can't say anything nice in the minutes after someone's death, stfu. Seriously trashy. I'm not a Chavez fanboy by any strecth, but have some basic respect for human dignity.

Devil's advocate:
I think I used to subscribe to the whole grace period thing, but why not be honest in our assessment/feelings in life and death? Are we, an anonymous internet forum, hurting the dead's feelings? Is it not a relic of some superstitious nonsense?

[Franknburger]

Let's have some look at what Chavez has achieved for his country, based on hard data:

• Economically, Venezuela fared anything but badly over the last ten years. The Gross National Income per capita has almost tripled between 2003 and 2011 from 3,500 to 11,000 $ (Atlas method). However, other countries in the region, such as Brazil and Uruguay, have achieved the same (Brazil actually even did better), and, unlike Venezuela, they don't posess huge oil reserves. Rating: Slightly below average.
• Poverty has been halved, from 62% to 31% of the population. Defenitely an achievement. But also not unique to Venezuela. Brazil and Uruguay, starting fron lower poverty levels, achieved similar reductions (Uruguay went down from 31% to 14%). And Peru, with a much weaker economic base than Venezuela, even cut down poverty from 60% to 28%. Rating: Slightly above average.
• Unemployment has been brought down from nearly 17% to 7.6% in 2009 (last available data). While Uruguay has achieved the same, and Peru (albeit starting from lower unemployment levels) even reduced unemployment to 6.2%, Brazil only went down from 9.7% to 8.3%. Rating: Slightly above average.
• Environment: Being an oil producer, CO2 emissions per capita have traditionally been high in Venezuela. They went down by 14% from 7.5 tons in 2003 to 6.5 tons in 2009, which is not bad at all. Nevertheless, per capita CO² emissions are still some 3-5 times as high as in Uruguay, Brazil or Peru, none of which, however, did reduce their emissions over the period in question. Looking for an appropriate benchmark, I came across Spain, which started out at the same emission level as Venezuela, but achieved slightly more reduction (from 7.6 to 6.3 t/ capita). China, OTOH, went up from 3.5 to 5-8 tons. Rating: Slightly above average.
• Life expectancy has increased from 72.8 to 74.1 years, Not bad. But Peru, which started with 71.8 years life expectancy, has now the same rate as Venezuela. Brazil went up from 71.0 to 73.5 years. And the three of them are still far behind Uruguay at 76.2 years (up from 74.9). Rating: Slightly below average.
• Reproductive health: While Venezuela's high maternal mortality rate has virtually remained unchanged at 94-92 deaths per 100,000 births, it went down from 90 to 67 in Peru, and from 67 to 57 in Brazil. Infant mortlity decreased from 1,7% to 1.3% in Venezuela, from 2.5% to 1.4% in Peru and Brazil, and from 1.3% to 0.9% in Uruguay. Rating: Below average.
• Education:The UNESCO Education for All (EFA) Index for Venezuela increased from 0.909 in 1999 to 0.951 in 2010, which is quite substantial, and has put Venezuela into the top group worldwide. My standard benchmark countries (Brazil, Uruguay, Peru) are unfortunately not covered by the EFA-index, so I have to switch benchmarks here: Ecuador improved from 0.913 to 0.924, Bolivia from 0.894 to 0.917, while Argentina has remained the South American top performer at 0.970 (up from 0.963). Rating: Above average.
• Corruption: Since Transparency international's Corruption Perception Index started to include Venezuela in 2005, the county has steadily steering further to the bottom of the list. Today, it stands out as the by far corruptest country on the subcontinent, with a TI score equalling that of Haiti and the Chad. Other countries in the region, such as Uruguay, which improved from a mediocre score of  51 in 2002 to 72 in 2012, have demonstrated that corruption can be contained in Latin America. Rating: Disastrous.

To summarise: Chavez has definitely not brought hardship over the Venzuelanan people. His government has been successful in cutting down poverty and unemployment, promoting education, and reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Economically, the country has performed well, albeit slightly below average when considering their oil reserves. In comparison to other South American countries, progress in the health sector has only been modest. While this is a decent track record, however, it is by far not exceptional in South America. People looking for models of socially balanced development  in Latin America might be well advised to also search for them elsewhere, e.g. in Brazil, Uruguay or Peru.

While I leave judgement on his human rights record to others, Chavez' record with respect to containing corruption is disastrous, which leaves more than just a stain on his "social reformer" image. He has left quite some unfinished tasks to his successors.

May he rest in peace.

[ag]

They won the last parliamentary elections in large part with gerrymandering, so your putting the US system as one of the best run elections in the world by that logic.

Except that US has never known such gerrymandering. First of all, it is centralized gerrymandering - one nationwide gerrymandering authority for the entire country. Illinois vs. Wisconsin it ain't. More importantly, they are not restricted to single-member districts - nor even by a fixed district size. This opens such extra scope for gerrymandering, and they used it so brazenly, that Mr. Eldridge Gerry himself would have blushed.

I am not sure Chavez himself was much concerned with this matter - too brutally efficient, it would seem, and efficiency has never been his forte.

[MaxQue]

Well, if centralized gerrymandering makes elections not fair, then Sarkozy is an issue (except it was done by someone incompetent).

[ag]

Devil's advocate:
I think I used to subscribe to the whole grace period thing, but why not be honest in our assessment/feelings in life and death? Are we, an anonymous internet forum, hurting the dead's feelings? Is it not a relic of some superstitious nonsense?

Like all rules of decorum.  So what? They are useful. A grace period to think, before spouting whatever one has to spoute - if that's not provided by death, what would provide it?

[ag]

Well, if centralized gerrymandering makes elections not fair, then Sarkozy is an issue (except it was done by someone incompetent).

I am not aware of the French case. What happened? If it really was attempted, it is THE issue. But, perhaps, it was not really attmepted - or severely institutionally constraint?

[LastVoter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsWsZmyL1QU

Here's a nice summary why people will celebrate Thatcher's death. Chavez was actually competent and improved lives of many people, which is why you don't see Venezuelans expressing the same sentiment, but mostly Americans.

[ag]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsWsZmyL1QU

Here's a nice summary why people will celebrate Thatcher's death. Chavez was actually competent and improved lives of many people, which is why you don't see Venezuelans expressing the same sentiment, but mostly Americans.

Calling Chavez "competent" is, methinks, a rather unusual English usage, for this is the one virtue the late man never staked much by.

[Tender Branson]

Chavez leaves Venezuelan economy more equal, less stable

(CNN) -- Hugo Chavez, the man who built his powerful persona on a populist platform of sharing Venezuela's vast oil wealth with the poor and disenfranchised, leaves his nation with a greater distribution of cash to the poor.

But his death also leaves an economy in tatters, some analysts say, as the country had to step in and massively devalue its currency 30% to the U.S. dollar last month. While the OPEC-member nation is sitting on the world's largest oil reserves and is among the biggest oil exporters, oil production has declined.

Chavez built his political base in the barrios of Venezuela, and his pledge to share the wealth among the nation's poorest is the strongest measure of his success during 14 years in office. The inequal distribution of wealth dropped to among the lowest in the Americas during his tenure. In 2011, the Gini coefficient -- which measures income inequality --was .39, down from nearly .5 in 1998, according to the CIA Factbook. That is behind only Canada in the Western Hemisphere.

"He's made Venezuelans feel proud to be Venezuelan again. And that is something I think that really no other leader in that country has done there before -- in fact, they were doing the opposite," Eva Golinger, a former Chavez advisor, told CNN.

Those living below the poverty line fell to 36.3% in 2006 from 50.4% in 1998, according to the World Bank, and infant mortality fell from 20.3 per thousand births when Chavez came to power, to 12.9 by 2011. Education also became more accessible, with the number of children enrolled in secondary education rising from 48% in 1999 to 72% in 2010, according to UNESCO figures.

"He has changed the lives dramatically of the majority of Venezuelans, he's altered the country forever, his policies have reduced poverty more than half and have brought people out of dire circumstances (who) today enjoy a decent standard of living," Golinger said. "His policies have implemented widespread national healthcare for all Venezuelans fee of charge."

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/06/business/venezuela-chavez-oil-economy/index.html

[Gustaf]

I didn't check more than the last 2 pages, but I hope someone has pointed out that given the oil prices trend over the last decade it's hard to fail as the leader of an oil producing country. That Venezuela hasn't done better is telling.

I also still find it amusing that the Chavez model of left-wing policy can still be so popular given how both theory and practice has shown rather consistently that it doesn't work, especially not in the long term, to achieve any of its supposed goals.

The guy sucked and it was an embarrassing mistake by the international left to ever support him. Get over it and find a better role model, people. Don't continue to dig.

[Velasco]

And hopefully his oppressive, undemocratic regime shall die with him.

Yes, winning 13 out of 14 elections during his presidency is very undemocratic. Hopefully the heroic lovers of democracy that attempted to overthrow him in a coup will now replace him.

Actually, it is losing that 1 out of 14 that makes him a democrat, not winning.

Venezuela under Chavez was a deeply flawed, unequal, corrupt democracy - but a democracy, nonetheless.  It was, however, an illiberal democracy.

Maybe ag, but Venezuela and the ALBA countries are not the only flawed, unequal and corrupt democracies in Latin America, you know that very well. At least you are the only person who gives some argumentation on the "we don't like Hugo" field. Some peole nevertheless...

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Soy socio Vosem de la biología. Odio a Hugo Chávez. Estoy feliz de que él está muerto.

[DC Al Fine]

The right-wing nonsense on this thread is disgustingly nauseating.

RIP.

Did you read my above post. What I found on Thatcher here is nauseating, not a thug like Chavez.

Obvious double standard is obvious.

Obvious because Thatcher attempted a coup like Chavez

[Middle-aged Europe]

Well, he was probably twenty times more democratic than Saudi Arabia. And Saudi Arabia is the place where we're selling tanks to.

Chavez was still an asshole, but compared to other assholes in the world the outrage over his government was largely exaggerated (and had more something to do with him being anti-American rather than being undemocratic).

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

This is the most excessive hyperbole-filled place on Atlas right now.