Smaller States Find Outsize Clout Growing in Senate
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Author Topic: Smaller States Find Outsize Clout Growing in Senate  (Read 5773 times)
greenforest32
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« on: March 11, 2013, 07:24:29 PM »

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Read more at http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/03/11/us/politics/democracy-tested.html
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Blue3
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« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2013, 07:28:00 PM »

It's the nature of the Senate.
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2013, 07:32:46 PM »

Our Senate grants a hugely disproportionate amount of power to small states with significantly less (and consequently, unrepresentative) population, and our House is terribly gerrymandered so as to give a party a 30-something seat majority that actually won a minority of overall votes. America is truly great.
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Franzl
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« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2013, 07:34:09 PM »

Our Senate grants a hugely disproportionate amount of power to small states with significantly less (and consequently, unrepresentative) population, and our House is terribly gerrymandered so as to give a party a 30-something seat majority that actually won a minority of overall votes. America is truly great.

It is indeed the world's greatest democracy.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2013, 07:39:35 PM »

The Senate is suppose to be like that by design.

One man, one vote only applies to legislatures that are designed to be proportional to the population such as the House of Represenatives. The Senate is suppose to represent the interests of the states.

Why am I not surprised that it involves an issue of federal gravy train that brings the Senate's design into question? Tongue

New York needs more representives in the House. Wyoming or Cube Root rule would fix that.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2013, 07:50:06 PM »

The Senate is suppose to be like that by design.

That doesn't make it right.
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greenforest32
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« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2013, 07:52:41 PM »

Bicameralism

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/03/11/if-youre-from-california-you-should-hate-the-senate/

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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2013, 08:21:58 PM »


NYT has an even more telling way to put it.
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Sopranos Republican
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« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2013, 08:40:51 PM »
« Edited: March 11, 2013, 08:42:28 PM by The Matt Trick »

Yes I feel the power coursing through my veins! Other than the fact that Rutland got 4 times the money that the New York county did, I really don't feel bad that we have 2 senators just like New York. That's the way it's designed in the constitution, New York has 27 representatives, we have 1, that's also the way the constitution designed it.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2013, 08:43:08 PM »

If lack of Senate representation really bothers the people of California, Texas, or New York so much, they could always split up into smaller states like Massachusetts did.

Fresno, Los Angeles, San Diego, Arlington (TX), Houston, El Paso, Lubbock, Corpus Christi, Manhattan, and Buffalo would all be good state capitals.
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greenforest32
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« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2013, 08:46:06 PM »


Yeah that's an even better link.

I wonder how many votes a constitutional amendment to abolish the Senate and impose independent redistricting on House/state/local districts would get? Probably not many in Congress and I want to say a national initiative doing that would fare better but none of the initiative states have even gotten rid of their state senates.

There's a lot of power backing the ridiculous existing situation which is splendid news for the Senate, the filibuster, the Electoral College, etc.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2013, 09:02:57 PM »

Yes I feel the power coursing through my veins! Other than the fact that Rutland got 4 times the money that the New York county did, I really don't feel bad that we have 2 senators just like New York. That's the way it's designed in the constitution, New York has 27 representatives, we have 1, that's also the way the constitution designed it.

Again, this says nothing about the moral validity and/or social utility of this system.

"That's the way we always did" is not an argument.
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Bandit3 the Worker
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« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2013, 09:22:06 PM »

Man, I just feel the power just pumping through my veins right now, with these 2 amazing senators I have!
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Maxwell
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« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2013, 09:35:52 PM »

This thread is just atrocious.
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traininthedistance
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« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2013, 11:52:21 PM »


It's almost as atrocious as the apportionment formula we have for the Senate!

Oh, wait, it doesn't come close.
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Vosem
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« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2013, 11:55:25 PM »

Man, I just feel the power just pumping through my veins right now, with these 2 amazing senators I have!

You have better ones than Matt, at least Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2013, 12:30:13 AM »
« Edited: March 12, 2013, 12:32:04 AM by ○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└ »

California actually has the highest poverty rate if you take into account cost of living. But no, our tax dollars have to go to helping the ungrateful not as poor in other states.

We have 23.5% poverty. DC has 23.2%, but they get screwed even worse than us with the Senate. Florida is 3rd with 19.5%, and doesn't do so well with the US Senate, either.

http://blogs.sacbee.com/capitolalertlatest/2012/11/californias-poverty-rate-highest-in-us-by-new-federal-measure.html
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Lief 🗽
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« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2013, 12:35:59 AM »

Man, I just feel the power just pumping through my veins right now, with these 2 amazing senators I have!

You have better ones than Matt, at least Smiley

Bandit has arguably the worst Senate delegation; Matt has arguably the best.
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Zioneer
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« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2013, 12:36:41 AM »

I don't feel that Orrin Hatch and Mike Lee give me any power, even taking into account Orrin Hatch's senority. He's not a Inouye type, and nor does he lead on any issue whatsoever. Mike Lee does nothing but vote the Republican line and throw fits about anything Obama does.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2013, 12:54:28 AM »


Right is a subjective consideration. If your priority is ensuring the most representation for the popular will possible then fine. If you desire to check that based of a realization that the popular will can be flawed at times, then it is in fact the best approach.
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jfern
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« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2013, 01:20:24 AM »


Right is a subjective consideration. If your priority is ensuring the most representation for the popular will possible then fine. If you desire to check that based of a realization that the popular will can be flawed at times, then it is in fact the best approach.

The flaw is your assumption that the undemocratic representation of the US Senate is somehow better than a good representation. Total nonsense.
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Sopranos Republican
Matt from VT
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« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2013, 03:14:09 PM »

Yes I feel the power coursing through my veins! Other than the fact that Rutland got 4 times the money that the New York county did, I really don't feel bad that we have 2 senators just like New York. That's the way it's designed in the constitution, New York has 27 representatives, we have 1, that's also the way the constitution designed it.

Again, this says nothing about the moral validity and/or social utility of this system.

"That's the way we always did" is not an argument.
The small states like Vermont would get screwed over if it was just the house of representatives. I mean give me a break, Peter Welsh would be our only voice in that system. One house that is delegated according to population, and one house where every state has the same say in matters.

Man, I just feel the power just pumping through my veins right now, with these 2 amazing senators I have!

You have better ones than Matt, at least Smiley

Bandit has arguably the worst Senate delegation; Matt has arguably the best.
I actually like Patrick Leahy, he is a supporter of gay rights, environmental protection, and better education, also a very likeable guy, have you noticed him in the last two batman movies? Bernie Sanders (sorry I'm not a socialist), but at least he supports those same issues I support.
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Sbane
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« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2013, 03:20:51 PM »

Yes I feel the power coursing through my veins! Other than the fact that Rutland got 4 times the money that the New York county did, I really don't feel bad that we have 2 senators just like New York. That's the way it's designed in the constitution, New York has 27 representatives, we have 1, that's also the way the constitution designed it.

Again, this says nothing about the moral validity and/or social utility of this system.

"That's the way we always did" is not an argument.
The small states like Vermont would get screwed over if it was just the house of representatives. I mean give me a break, Peter Welsh would be our only voice in that system. One house that is delegated according to population, and one house where every state has the same say in matters.

Man, I just feel the power just pumping through my veins right now, with these 2 amazing senators I have!

You have better ones than Matt, at least Smiley

Bandit has arguably the worst Senate delegation; Matt has arguably the best.
I actually like Patrick Leahy, he is a supporter of gay rights, environmental protection, and better education, also a very likeable guy, have you noticed him in the last two batman movies? Bernie Sanders (sorry I'm not a socialist), but at least he supports those same issues I support.

Why should every state have the same voice, if one state has 20 times the population than another?
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Sopranos Republican
Matt from VT
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« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2013, 03:31:23 PM »

Yes I feel the power coursing through my veins! Other than the fact that Rutland got 4 times the money that the New York county did, I really don't feel bad that we have 2 senators just like New York. That's the way it's designed in the constitution, New York has 27 representatives, we have 1, that's also the way the constitution designed it.

Again, this says nothing about the moral validity and/or social utility of this system.

"That's the way we always did" is not an argument.
The small states like Vermont would get screwed over if it was just the house of representatives. I mean give me a break, Peter Welsh would be our only voice in that system. One house that is delegated according to population, and one house where every state has the same say in matters.

Man, I just feel the power just pumping through my veins right now, with these 2 amazing senators I have!

You have better ones than Matt, at least Smiley

Bandit has arguably the worst Senate delegation; Matt has arguably the best.
I actually like Patrick Leahy, he is a supporter of gay rights, environmental protection, and better education, also a very likeable guy, have you noticed him in the last two batman movies? Bernie Sanders (sorry I'm not a socialist), but at least he supports those same issues I support.

Why should every state have the same voice, if one state has 20 times the population than another?
We'd get passed by on everything. We already do in some cases, Northern New England is the only region in the U.S. without a high priority corridor designation. We don't have any major east-west interstates, because we aren't guaranteed federal funding for the interstate. The region once passed a resolution for one, and it was struck down by the federal transportation department. Just because we don't have as many people doesn't mean we aren't as important.
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Atlas Has Shrugged
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« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2013, 03:40:52 PM »

I love how everyone is ignoring California's 50 Congressmen, compared to Vermonts one Congressman. The Senate and House counterbalance one another. The real reform needed is getting rid of the House's gerrymandering.
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