Which is more racist/xenophobic? Europe/Australia or USA?

[Sbane]

Now, I have never visited Europe, but any non-white person who has lived in Europe or Australia mentions that America is much more tolerant of diversity. Is this true, or do Americans just not express their racism as much? And I think this applies to all of America, as I have lived in California, and I have lived in Tennessee, and haven't faced more racism or anything like that.

I guess I just get pissed off when I hear Europeans imply that America is some sort of racist backwater...do you guys really think Obama's story would be possible in any country in Europe or in Australia?

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

I highly doubt a black man could have been elected in most of Europe.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Europe, definitely. Jan Brewer wouldn't dare to say half of the horrendous things we hear from mainstream right parties here.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Question is meaningless.

You wouldn't even be comparing like with like: American society is (to a considerable extent) structured around the idea of 'race', which is not the case in many other places.

[Franzl]

It depends. Racism in America seems to be more of an institutional racism, whereas I would say your average American on the street probably is less racist (or at the very least, much more reluctant to say something racist) than the average European on the street.

Of course this is an impossible question to answer. It depends on the issue at hand and the exact location. Just as Iowa isn't Oklahoma, Italy isn't Sweden.

[Franzl]

I guess I just get pissed off when I hear Europeans imply that America is some sort of racist backwater...do you guys really think Obama's story would be possible in any country in Europe or in Australia?

To answer this question specifically: Obama's story is possible entirely because he isn't a typical African American. While I don't claim most European countries will be electing any (racial) minority head of government any time soon, one should remember that America elected a man with black skin that happens to be culturally white in pretty much every way. (And that by 7% after the crash of 2008. Not that that itself makes a difference, but we should keep things in perspective.)

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

It depends. Racism in America seems to be more of an institutional racism, whereas I would say your average American on the street probably is less racist (or at the very least, much more reluctant to say something racist) than the average European on the street.

Of course this is an impossible question to answer. It depends on the issue at hand and the exact location. Just as Iowa isn't Oklahoma, Italy isn't Sweden.

I'd agree with this more or less.

[Sbane]

I guess I just get pissed off when I hear Europeans imply that America is some sort of racist backwater...do you guys really think Obama's story would be possible in any country in Europe or in Australia?

To answer this question specifically: Obama's story is possible entirely because he isn't a typical African American. While I don't claim most European countries will be electing any (racial) minority head of government any time soon, one should remember that America elected a man with black skin that happens to be culturally white in pretty much every way. (And that by 7% after the crash of 2008. Not that that itself makes a difference, but we should keep things in perspective.)

I think Obama would have won even if the crash didn't happen. By a smaller margin, of course, and a smaller margin than what Hillary would have managed, but he would have won. I don't think you can say that in any European nation, the son of an immigrant could become President/Prime Minister. I also wouldn't say that Obama is culturally "white", but that brings up an interesting point.

There is a close interplay of race and class in America, especially with regard to AA's. I wouldn't say Obama was acting white, he just wasn't acting like how we expect AA's to act (and this isn't just how whites see it, but also how many AA's see it, thus the common insult, "acting white"). A person who fits all those stereotypes could not become President, no. I also don't think a person acting like an uneducated redneck could become President. Still, if we look at how much overt and shocking racism occurs in America vs Europe, there is no comparison. Just look at the racism you see at soccer games. You don't see that in any organized sport in America.

[LastVoter]

What about the leader of the Green party in Germany? He's Turkish, and he might be part of the winning coalition.

[Napoleon]

I guess I just get pissed off when I hear Europeans imply that America is some sort of racist backwater...do you guys really think Obama's story would be possible in any country in Europe or in Australia?

To answer this question specifically: Obama's story is possible entirely because he isn't a typical African American. While I don't claim most European countries will be electing any (racial) minority head of government any time soon, one should remember that America elected a man with black skin that happens to be culturally white in pretty much every way. (And that by 7% after the crash of 2008. Not that that itself makes a difference, but we should keep things in perspective.)

I think Obama would have won even if the crash didn't happen. By a smaller margin, of course, and a smaller margin than what Hillary would have managed, but he would have won. I don't think you can say that in any European nation, the son of an immigrant could become President/Prime Minister. I also wouldn't say that Obama is culturally "white", but that brings up an interesting point.

There is a close interplay of race and class in America, especially with regard to AA's. I wouldn't say Obama was acting white, he just wasn't acting like how we expect AA's to act (and this isn't just how whites see it, but also how many AA's see it, thus the common insult, "acting white"). A person who fits all those stereotypes could not become President, no. I also don't think a person acting like an uneducated redneck could become President. Still, if we look at how much overt and shocking racism occurs in America vs Europe, there is no comparison. Just look at the racism you see at soccer games. You don't see that in any organized sport in America.

Uh, Sbane, we actually had an uneducated redneck as President five years ago.

[Mr. Morden]

I don't think you can say that in any European nation, the son of an immigrant could become President/Prime Minister.

Australia has gone even farther than that.  The Prime Minister isn't just the daughter of immigrants, she *is* an immigrant! 

[Sbane]

I guess I just get pissed off when I hear Europeans imply that America is some sort of racist backwater...do you guys really think Obama's story would be possible in any country in Europe or in Australia?

To answer this question specifically: Obama's story is possible entirely because he isn't a typical African American. While I don't claim most European countries will be electing any (racial) minority head of government any time soon, one should remember that America elected a man with black skin that happens to be culturally white in pretty much every way. (And that by 7% after the crash of 2008. Not that that itself makes a difference, but we should keep things in perspective.)

I think Obama would have won even if the crash didn't happen. By a smaller margin, of course, and a smaller margin than what Hillary would have managed, but he would have won. I don't think you can say that in any European nation, the son of an immigrant could become President/Prime Minister. I also wouldn't say that Obama is culturally "white", but that brings up an interesting point.

There is a close interplay of race and class in America, especially with regard to AA's. I wouldn't say Obama was acting white, he just wasn't acting like how we expect AA's to act (and this isn't just how whites see it, but also how many AA's see it, thus the common insult, "acting white"). A person who fits all those stereotypes could not become President, no. I also don't think a person acting like an uneducated redneck could become President. Still, if we look at how much overt and shocking racism occurs in America vs Europe, there is no comparison. Just look at the racism you see at soccer games. You don't see that in any organized sport in America.

Uh, Sbane, we actually had an uneducated redneck as President five years ago.

Haha, true. Though I was thinking of more of a stereotypical figure than Bush. In any case, no one like him is becoming President any time soon.

[Beet]

Question is meaningless.

You wouldn't even be comparing like with like: American society is (to a considerable extent) structured around the idea of 'race', which is not the case in many other places.

Just because you don't acknowledge it doesn't mean it's not there.

[Franzl]

I guess I just get pissed off when I hear Europeans imply that America is some sort of racist backwater...do you guys really think Obama's story would be possible in any country in Europe or in Australia?

To answer this question specifically: Obama's story is possible entirely because he isn't a typical African American. While I don't claim most European countries will be electing any (racial) minority head of government any time soon, one should remember that America elected a man with black skin that happens to be culturally white in pretty much every way. (And that by 7% after the crash of 2008. Not that that itself makes a difference, but we should keep things in perspective.)

I think Obama would have won even if the crash didn't happen. By a smaller margin, of course, and a smaller margin than what Hillary would have managed, but he would have won. I don't think you can say that in any European nation, the son of an immigrant could become President/Prime Minister. I also wouldn't say that Obama is culturally "white", but that brings up an interesting point.

There is a close interplay of race and class in America, especially with regard to AA's. I wouldn't say Obama was acting white, he just wasn't acting like how we expect AA's to act (and this isn't just how whites see it, but also how many AA's see it, thus the common insult, "acting white"). A person who fits all those stereotypes could not become President, no. I also don't think a person acting like an uneducated redneck could become President. Still, if we look at how much overt and shocking racism occurs in America vs Europe, there is no comparison. Just look at the racism you see at soccer games. You don't see that in any organized sport in America.

I think you're right that racists are certainly more open about their racism, the soccer example isn't wrong, although I would again stress that it's very dependent on exactly where you are.

But you need to also look at things like - say - the incarceration rates in America, and what penalties certain crimes carry. What is it, 1 out of 10 African American males is in jail? These laws undeniably have a racist background, yet it doesn't require openly racist public commentary. That's one thing I meant under institutionalized racism in America.

[Franzl]

I don't think you can say that in any European nation, the son of an immigrant could become President/Prime Minister.

Regarding that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Sarkozy

[Antonio the Sixth]

I don't think you can say that in any European nation, the son of an immigrant could become President/Prime Minister.

Regarding that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Sarkozy

Europeans are relatively fine with wealthy immigrants. It's only the poor that pose a problem.

[Mr. Morden]

I'm reminded of this discussion on the varying %age of racial minorities in different Western countries, and how that impacts the likelihood of another country electing their own version of Obama:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=86669.15

Including Verily's attempt to quantify the fraction of the population that's a racial minority in different countries, circa 2008:

Using Wikipedia's demographic data, here's a list of interesting countries:

1. United States: 34% minority (includes Hispanic whites)
2. New Zealand: 20% (includes Maori, Asian and Pacific Islanders, but not other minorities)
3. Canada: 16% ("visible minorities" only; i.e. non-whites)
4. Australia: 15% (non-European descent)
5. United Kingdom: 14% (only non-whites)
6. Netherlands: 13% (only non-whites)
7. France: 9% (only non-Europeans, but includes self-IDed white North Africans)
8. Germany: 4% (only non-whites)
9. Spain: ~3% (difficult to estimate due to ambiguous status of part-Native Latin Americans, much, much higher if all Latin Americans are considered minority, could be in between if only those self-IDed as non-white are included)

[Franknburger]

I don't think you can say that in any European nation, the son of an immigrant could become President/Prime Minister.

Regarding that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Sarkozy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp_R%C3%B6sler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_McAllister
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cem_%C3%96zdemir
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarek_Al-Wazir
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_von_Dohnanyi (o.k., that is third generation, but I wanted a social democrat in the list as well)

[Knives]

Australia is incredibly racist or ignorant depending how you see it.

[morgieb]

Given that I actually am Australian, the immigration debate here is far worse than in America. So the former, plus also the far-right is more influential in Europe than America (unless you live in the Deep South or Arizona)

[morgieb]

I don't think you can say that in any European nation, the son of an immigrant could become President/Prime Minister.

Australia has gone even farther than that.  The Prime Minister isn't just the daughter of immigrants, she *is* an immigrant! 

The Opposition Leader is too

But it's kinda different as they're from English-speaking backgrounds and are white.

[Mr. Morden]

I don't think you can say that in any European nation, the son of an immigrant could become President/Prime Minister.

Australia has gone even farther than that.  The Prime Minister isn't just the daughter of immigrants, she *is* an immigrant! 

The Opposition Leader is too

Weren't Abbott's parents Australian citizens who were living in the UK at the time?  If so, then I'd guess he would have been an Australian citizen at birth, and his situation would be analogous to that of John McCain or George Romney.  I don't know that such people would qualify as "immigrants" by any straightforward definition of the term.

Gillard, OTOH, was simply a UK citizen who immigrated with her family when she was young.  She would then count as an "immigrant", one would assume.

[Mr. Morden]

Given that I actually am Australian, the immigration debate here is far worse than in America. So the former, plus also the far-right is more influential in Europe than America (unless you live in the Deep South or Arizona)

Yes, the immigration debate is "worse" in Australia than the USA, but it's complicated.  There's no easy way to make the comparison in certain respects.  You've also got to distinguish between racist attitudes that people will actually voice in public, and those that they might hold in their heart.

For example, in the USA, you've got informal speech codes regarding what people are willing to say in polite society that would reveal white/black racism.  Those have been built up over decades of negotiation within the culture.  The same sort of thing doesn't necessarily exist in the same way in countries where the %age of the population belonging to minority groups is much smaller.  And even where it does exist, does less "offensive speech" represent a society in which people have more enlightened attitudes, or one in which people are more careful about what they say?

It's also true that while there's a strong stigma against overt bigotry against blacks in the USA, that stigma does not exist to the same degree for bigotry against, say, Muslims.  This is of course a product of the particular history of the USA, and other countries will have negotiated these things within their cultures in a different way.  That makes a simple yes/no either/or comparison on "who's more racist?" a challenge.

[minionofmidas]

In so far as that makes sense, Europe is more xenobhobic than the USA while America is more racist. Australia is infinitely more like America than like Europe in these things, of course, and all this is of course utterly self-evident given the history of America and Australia as racist settler colonies.

[politicallefty]

In so far as that makes sense, Europe is more xenobhobic than the USA while America is more racist. Australia is infinitely more like America than like Europe in these things, of course, and all this is of course utterly self-evident given the history of America and Australia as racist settler colonies.

That's what I was thinking also. I've always figured that Australia was the country most like the US culturally than any other (even more so than Canada).