BREAKING NEWS: POPE FRANCIS I - Jorge Mario Bergoglio - Argentina
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  BREAKING NEWS: POPE FRANCIS I - Jorge Mario Bergoglio - Argentina
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Harry
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« Reply #75 on: March 13, 2013, 08:13:19 PM »

Like I said, those were the relevant issues for those of us not involved in the nuances of intra-Catholic goings on. I didn't see that stuff about killing priests or whatever and I have no particular interest in going back and looking at it because I don't care. The "wedge" issues, things that should have been taken care of decades ago, are the only things I find really relevant and until they make any progress on them I won't care who the pope is. Those are the things they can really change by coming into the 20th century let alone the current one.

No denomination of Christianity supports abortion, so I don't know what you could have possibly expected there.
Very few support gay marriage (Episcopals are moving toward gay blessings, and there are a few small denominations that have it), but how is that a 20th century issue?  Gay marriage was a fantasy in this country until 2003, which is clearly in the 21st century.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #76 on: March 13, 2013, 08:50:40 PM »

Apparently some people are surprised that the new Pope has the same views on societal matters as 90% of the Catholic hierarchy and of a good majority of Catholics themselves. Shocker indeed!

For those who actually have a clue of what's going on inside the Vatican, however, Bergoglio seems like a relatively promising choice.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #77 on: March 13, 2013, 09:06:54 PM »

Wow, that was rude...I'm right here. I didn't see whatever that was about the Argentine priests and don't particularly care. Things like contraception, abortion, and gay marriage are the chief issues I care about. There's not much in my life affected by the Pope, so the broad issues surrounding perpetuated bigotry at the cost of lives take precedence for me. Not all of us drink the Kool-Aid, so the bottom line is much appreciated.

As for abortion, gay marriage, and contraception, obviously whoever the new pope was would be against those.  The contraception ban will almost certainly fall in the next 30 years or so, but it won't be on a pope's first day, and it will probably be from a pope who had previously fallen in line on the issue.
Gay marriage will probably never come, but I would expect to see Episcopal-style gay blessings by the time we have a pope born in the 1980s or so. Regardless, we all knew what the new pope would think.
And the Church will probably oppose abortion 500 years from now, so it's not worth even wondering what any potential pope would think about it.


As a non-Catholic, could you help me out here? Why do you believe the hierarchy is moving slowly towards SSM and contraception, but not abortion?
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DemPGH
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« Reply #78 on: March 13, 2013, 09:10:45 PM »
« Edited: March 13, 2013, 09:26:57 PM by DemPGH, Atty. Gen. »

You know, if I were young, progressive, Catholic, and / or even a little bit secular, I think I would be having a bit of a crisis right now in regard to my religion. But yet it never happens. It's astounding. Well, maybe it just happens veeeeery slowly. And I would also be having a crisis over how flippantly the word "humble" is used to soften arch-conservatism and to describe someone who is moving into a palace of spectacular, stunning grandeur.

When I got home I turned on CNN and of course this was a stop-the-presses moment. Anderson Cooper was running around getting all these opinions from students and young people, supposedly the bright international types. As usual, Cooper was asking very good questions. Very basic questions about the Church's history, if there were any cardinals any of the folks wanted to see get it, any front-runners they wanted, why, and most importantly, how should the Church modernize.

Easy questions with easy answers. These young, bright, international folks stumbled over these questions in a way that had my jaw sitting on my chest. They had no freaking clue. I don't think there was a single direct answer other than "uhh . . . someone from my country." And then I realized that anyone who actually would answer these questions, or anyone who would say "someone really secular" is probably not at the Basilica to begin with. So it's a charade. Right when I turned on the TV Cooper had a few women (one US, one English, one French, I believe) on who were just pedantically going on and on about "pink smoke" and roles for women and "progressive cardinals." I thought, "Oh, not this again. Ladies, do not hold your breath, because you will need a deep one." I just hope that deep down they realize it.
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #79 on: March 13, 2013, 10:08:05 PM »

Who better to solve the child rape crisis than a bespectacled old man named Francis?
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Sbane
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« Reply #80 on: March 13, 2013, 10:56:46 PM »

What's up with the outrage about rational people speaking out against the irrational and inhumane views someone in a position of power holds? The new pope, the last one, and probably the next one, deserve to be criticized for their oppressive views on gays and their harmful views on contraception. He may care more about the poor than previous popes, which is great, but he manifests that by criticizing capitalism? Wealth creation should be encouraged along with redistribution to the needy. I don't really see what there is to like about him and why he should be shielded from criticism.
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BaldEagle1991
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« Reply #81 on: March 13, 2013, 10:59:25 PM »

My Roman Catholic family isn't really like this guy at all. I don't know why.
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Nathan
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« Reply #82 on: March 13, 2013, 11:04:48 PM »

What's up with the outrage about rational people speaking out against the irrational and inhumane views someone in a position of power holds? The new pope, the last one, and probably the next one, deserve to be criticized for their oppressive views on gays and their harmful views on contraception. He may care more about the poor than previous popes, which is great, but he manifests that by criticizing capitalism? Wealth creation should be encouraged along with redistribution to the needy. I don't really see what there is to like about him and why he should be shielded from criticism.

It's the shocked and scandalized tone that some of the substantively legitimate criticism has taken--not on Atlas as such, but definitely elsewhere on the internet--that's...bizarre.
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Sbane
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« Reply #83 on: March 13, 2013, 11:07:51 PM »

I guess expecting otherwise is bizzare, but the criticism is legitimate.
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Blue3
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« Reply #84 on: March 13, 2013, 11:12:57 PM »
« Edited: March 13, 2013, 11:14:48 PM by Starwatcher »

What's up with the outrage about rational people speaking out against the irrational and inhumane views someone in a position of power holds? The new pope, the last one, and probably the next one, deserve to be criticized for their oppressive views on gays and their harmful views on contraception. He may care more about the poor than previous popes, which is great, but he manifests that by criticizing capitalism? Wealth creation should be encouraged along with redistribution to the needy. I don't really see what there is to like about him and why he should be shielded from criticism.
The Catholic Church actually teaches respect of homosexual people, that simply being gay is not a sin, and that it's not a choice. They just view the sex is wrong, for the same reason they view masturbation is wrong and condoms are wrong. It's all related to one issue, the belief that all sex must be open to life. And it really does make no sense to criticize the new Pope for believing what probably 100% of the other cardinals believe.


Also, this new Pope has said in the past that contraception, when used by married couples to stop the spread of disease, is NOT sinful. And that's already a soft but significant shift.
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Nathan
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« Reply #85 on: March 13, 2013, 11:17:14 PM »

What's up with the outrage about rational people speaking out against the irrational and inhumane views someone in a position of power holds? The new pope, the last one, and probably the next one, deserve to be criticized for their oppressive views on gays and their harmful views on contraception. He may care more about the poor than previous popes, which is great, but he manifests that by criticizing capitalism? Wealth creation should be encouraged along with redistribution to the needy. I don't really see what there is to like about him and why he should be shielded from criticism.
The Catholic Church actually teaches respect of homosexual people, that simply being gay is not a sin, and that it's not a choice. They just view the sex is wrong, for the same reason they view masturbation is wrong and condoms are wrong. It's all related to one issue, the belief that all sex must be open to life. And it really does make no sense to criticize the new Pope for believing what probably 100% of the other cardinals believe.


Also, this new Pope has said in the past that contraception, when used by married couples to stop the spread of disease, is NOT sinful. And that's already a soft but significant shift.

One can criticize the Church hierarchy as a whole for it, certainly. It's just the criticism of any given individual (as opposed to whom?--is the question one is tempted to ask) that's a little odd.
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Blue3
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« Reply #86 on: March 13, 2013, 11:21:29 PM »

Criticize Church teaching.

In the way Pope Francis is different than previous Popes, it's for his more progressive views. So he shouldn't be criticized for saying in the past that he strongly supports current Church teaching. It just isn't right or logical. It's not like his opening sermon was about condemning gay people to hell.
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Nathan
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« Reply #87 on: March 13, 2013, 11:32:59 PM »

Criticize Church teaching.

In the way Pope Francis is different than previous Popes, it's for his more progressive views. So he shouldn't be criticized for saying in the past that he strongly supports current Church teaching. It just isn't right or logical. It's not like his opening sermon was about condemning gay people to hell.

I think we're in agreement here.
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Zioneer
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« Reply #88 on: March 14, 2013, 12:20:35 AM »

I'm already liking the new Pope; he seems like a relatively honest and humble guy. I'm just disappointed that with my own faith, we always already know who the next leader will be (basically always the most senior in the hierarchy). I like that we avoid the political concerns that the Catholic cardinals have, but it's just so predictable.
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Harry
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« Reply #89 on: March 14, 2013, 07:29:17 AM »

What's up with the outrage about rational people speaking out against the irrational and inhumane views someone in a position of power holds? The new pope, the last one, and probably the next one, deserve to be criticized for their oppressive views on gays and their harmful views on contraception. He may care more about the poor than previous popes, which is great, but he manifests that by criticizing capitalism? Wealth creation should be encouraged along with redistribution to the needy. I don't really see what there is to like about him and why he should be shielded from criticism.

Because he has a really interesting whole life story that can't be summed by up 'HE'S AGINST ABORTION LULZ" or "HE TORTURED LIBRAL PRESTS LOL!", but those two "stories" are all that his detractors even want to talk about.

It would be one thing if he were a professional troll with no character whatsoever like Timothy Dolan, but that does not appear to be case.
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Harry
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« Reply #90 on: March 14, 2013, 07:32:18 AM »

Wow, that was rude...I'm right here. I didn't see whatever that was about the Argentine priests and don't particularly care. Things like contraception, abortion, and gay marriage are the chief issues I care about. There's not much in my life affected by the Pope, so the broad issues surrounding perpetuated bigotry at the cost of lives take precedence for me. Not all of us drink the Kool-Aid, so the bottom line is much appreciated.

As for abortion, gay marriage, and contraception, obviously whoever the new pope was would be against those.  The contraception ban will almost certainly fall in the next 30 years or so, but it won't be on a pope's first day, and it will probably be from a pope who had previously fallen in line on the issue.
Gay marriage will probably never come, but I would expect to see Episcopal-style gay blessings by the time we have a pope born in the 1980s or so. Regardless, we all knew what the new pope would think.
And the Church will probably oppose abortion 500 years from now, so it's not worth even wondering what any potential pope would think about it.


As a non-Catholic, could you help me out here? Why do you believe the hierarchy is moving slowly towards SSM and contraception, but not abortion?

Because lots of other similar-style Christians (Episcopals, Lutherans, etc.) have come around on contraception and are starting to move toward some kind of gay recognition.  None of them are changing their minds on abortion any time soon, though.
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fezzyfestoon
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« Reply #91 on: March 14, 2013, 11:12:31 AM »

Like I said, those were the relevant issues for those of us not involved in the nuances of intra-Catholic goings on. I didn't see that stuff about killing priests or whatever and I have no particular interest in going back and looking at it because I don't care. The "wedge" issues, things that should have been taken care of decades ago, are the only things I find really relevant and until they make any progress on them I won't care who the pope is. Those are the things they can really change by coming into the 20th century let alone the current one.
No denomination of Christianity supports abortion, so I don't know what you could have possibly expected there.
Very few support gay marriage (Episcopals are moving toward gay blessings, and there are a few small denominations that have it), but how is that a 20th century issue?  Gay marriage was a fantasy in this country until 2003, which is clearly in the 21st century.

Again, that's exactly why their coverage worked well for me. Until the church does make any forward progress towards de-bigoting their teachings, then it doesn't matter much to me what other nonsense they're going on about. Gay marriage wasn't a real issue until recently largely because of major religion, obviously particularly Christianity in the US, are so dead set against even considering it that they dominate politics until they bend to the will of the church. If they were to stop force-feeding tiny, politically motivated positions that were inappropriate even 50 years ago, then I might care a little about whatever else it is they talk about that affects non-members.
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memphis
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« Reply #92 on: March 14, 2013, 02:49:00 PM »

Wow, that was rude...I'm right here. I didn't see whatever that was about the Argentine priests and don't particularly care. Things like contraception, abortion, and gay marriage are the chief issues I care about. There's not much in my life affected by the Pope, so the broad issues surrounding perpetuated bigotry at the cost of lives take precedence for me. Not all of us drink the Kool-Aid, so the bottom line is much appreciated.

As for abortion, gay marriage, and contraception, obviously whoever the new pope was would be against those.  The contraception ban will almost certainly fall in the next 30 years or so, but it won't be on a pope's first day, and it will probably be from a pope who had previously fallen in line on the issue.
Gay marriage will probably never come, but I would expect to see Episcopal-style gay blessings by the time we have a pope born in the 1980s or so. Regardless, we all knew what the new pope would think.
And the Church will probably oppose abortion 500 years from now, so it's not worth even wondering what any potential pope would think about it.


As a non-Catholic, could you help me out here? Why do you believe the hierarchy is moving slowly towards SSM and contraception, but not abortion?

Because lots of other similar-style Christians (Episcopals, Lutherans, etc.) have come around on contraception and are starting to move toward some kind of gay recognition.  None of them are changing their minds on abortion any time soon, though.
The Church's position on contraception doesn't matter one bit. Everybody uses it anyway. And opposition to the War in Iraq didn't stop conservative Catholics from lining up to vote for Republicans. But it's not just the Catholics, so I shouldn't single them out. Religion is just an excuse to meet people, feel good about yourself, and criticize others for being different.
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Nathan
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« Reply #93 on: March 14, 2013, 03:02:22 PM »

Like I said, those were the relevant issues for those of us not involved in the nuances of intra-Catholic goings on. I didn't see that stuff about killing priests or whatever and I have no particular interest in going back and looking at it because I don't care. The "wedge" issues, things that should have been taken care of decades ago, are the only things I find really relevant and until they make any progress on them I won't care who the pope is. Those are the things they can really change by coming into the 20th century let alone the current one.
No denomination of Christianity supports abortion, so I don't know what you could have possibly expected there.
Very few support gay marriage (Episcopals are moving toward gay blessings, and there are a few small denominations that have it), but how is that a 20th century issue?  Gay marriage was a fantasy in this country until 2003, which is clearly in the 21st century.

Again, that's exactly why their coverage worked well for me. Until the church does make any forward progress towards de-bigoting their teachings, then it doesn't matter much to me what other nonsense they're going on about. Gay marriage wasn't a real issue until recently largely because of major religion, obviously particularly Christianity in the US, are so dead set against even considering it that they dominate politics until they bend to the will of the church. If they were to stop force-feeding tiny, politically motivated positions that were inappropriate even 50 years ago, then I might care a little about whatever else it is they talk about that affects non-members.

Independently of your self-admitted lack of interest in other issues, you're presenting a strongly ahistorical and synchronic view of the LGBTQ movement itself.
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fezzyfestoon
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« Reply #94 on: March 14, 2013, 03:12:18 PM »

Independently of your self-admitted lack of interest in other issues, you're presenting a strongly ahistorical and synchronic view of the LGBTQ movement itself.

How so? Also, I'm not saying that about political issues in general, just the most pressing that are related to things the pope needs to say to get people on the right page, ala abortion, contraception/AIDS relief, and gay marriage. What he has to say will drastically affect those things above any other issue he could speak on. That's why that's all I care about the pope saying. But more importantly, the question... Tongue
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Insula Dei
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« Reply #95 on: March 14, 2013, 03:13:25 PM »

Wait, they elected a catholic to be the next pope? My god, I guess we all knew the church was rotten, but this,...
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Franzl
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« Reply #96 on: March 15, 2013, 10:06:34 AM »

Wait, they elected a catholic to be the next pope? My god, I guess we all knew the church was rotten, but this,...

That was particularly troubling, yes.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #97 on: March 15, 2013, 10:08:04 AM »

Yes, this new Pope does seem a little popish to me. I don't like it. Smacks of popery, incense, black bread and wooden shoes.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #98 on: March 15, 2013, 10:56:31 AM »

Wow, that was rude...I'm right here. I didn't see whatever that was about the Argentine priests and don't particularly care. Things like contraception, abortion, and gay marriage are the chief issues I care about. There's not much in my life affected by the Pope, so the broad issues surrounding perpetuated bigotry at the cost of lives take precedence for me. Not all of us drink the Kool-Aid, so the bottom line is much appreciated.

As for abortion, gay marriage, and contraception, obviously whoever the new pope was would be against those.  The contraception ban will almost certainly fall in the next 30 years or so, but it won't be on a pope's first day, and it will probably be from a pope who had previously fallen in line on the issue.
Gay marriage will probably never come, but I would expect to see Episcopal-style gay blessings by the time we have a pope born in the 1980s or so. Regardless, we all knew what the new pope would think.
And the Church will probably oppose abortion 500 years from now, so it's not worth even wondering what any potential pope would think about it.


As a non-Catholic, could you help me out here? Why do you believe the hierarchy is moving slowly towards SSM and contraception, but not abortion?

Because lots of other similar-style Christians (Episcopals, Lutherans, etc.) have come around on contraception and are starting to move toward some kind of gay recognition.  None of them are changing their minds on abortion any time soon, though.
The Church's position on contraception doesn't matter one bit. Everybody uses it anyway. And opposition to the War in Iraq didn't stop conservative Catholics from lining up to vote for Republicans. But it's not just the Catholics, so I shouldn't single them out. Religion is just an excuse to meet people, feel good about yourself, and criticize others for being different.

Fantastic insight! You are the only one to have ever come close to possessing this knowledge!
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #99 on: March 15, 2013, 01:04:20 PM »

Wait, they elected a catholic to be the next pope? My god, I guess we all knew the church was rotten, but this,...

I was really hoping for a Calvinist pope... Oh well Tongue
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