William Shakespeare, Quentin Tarantino or Lena Dunham

[they don't love you like i love you]

Here's always the thing that got me. Obviously the vast majority of Irish-Americans never gave money to the IRA. The vast majority never expressed support for or cared about the IRA. I'll grant that.

But still, let's consider how disturbing it is that many did, that some people will still brag about this today, and that for so many this was just because of some silly nationalistic feelings when they had no connection to Ireland in the modern day, and had never even been there. It was like wearing a Che shirt, except in this case the money is going to fund actually killing people. It's just despicable.

Now yes like I've said many times, I'll admit the vast majority of Irish-Americans are not responsible for this. But it's the vocal ones that you'll hear about and who give the impressions.

[patrick1]

Really not wanting to get into these same arguments but I'll bite.  If you are looking for a foil here, I'll stand up and be counted.   I support Sinn Fein and aims the Republican movement stretching back to before most of our posters were born. I'd still support the cause of a non sectarian united Irish Republic today. It goes without saying that many of the actions from people on all sides of the conflict were appalling. It is also a 1000% improvement that  the stakeholders have put down the gun and moved forward to peace.

[they don't love you like i love you]

Really not wanting to get into these same arguments but I'll bite.  If you are looking for a foil here, I'll stand up and be counted.   I support Sinn Fein and aims the Republican movement stretching back to before most of our posters were born. I'd still support the cause of a non sectarian united Irish Republic today. It goes without saying that many of the actions from people on all sides of the conflict were appalling. It is also a 1000% improvement that  the stakeholders have put down the gun and moved forward to peace.

Yes, and those were the actions that people who thought it was badass to donate to NORAID were funding.

[patrick1]

Really not wanting to get into these same arguments but I'll bite.  If you are looking for a foil here, I'll stand up and be counted.   I support Sinn Fein and aims the Republican movement stretching back to before most of our posters were born. I'd still support the cause of a non sectarian united Irish Republic today. It goes without saying that many of the actions from people on all sides of the conflict were appalling. It is also a 1000% improvement that  the stakeholders have put down the gun and moved forward to peace.

Yes, and those were the actions that people who thought it was badass to donate to NORAID were funding.

From one perspective, you had a blatantly sectarian government and police force, an occupying army that clearly picked their side in the conflict and a failed civil right movement that was quelled with violence.

The local communities were burning people out of their homes

From the other side, you had the fear that they were going to have all their rights, history and and lives taken from them.  All sides descended into violence and felt that violence was the only answer.  These parties were funded and supported monetarily and organizational on both sides of the Atlantic.

You may have had some Americans buying guns under false pretense but you cannot overlook that the British government was supplying intelligence and weapons to loyalist hit squads.  Or that apartheid S. Africa supplied the loyalists while Qaddafi supplied the IRA.

It was an ugly conflict that really shouldn't be brought down to a petty talking point.

I may have posted this years back but here is a video with interviews from both side of prisoners of HMS Maze. I think it captures their motivations well.
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-g5Rad_MKA

[they don't love you like i love you]

But none of that stuff, while relevant, deals with Irish-Americans being such idiots. How would you feel about Serb-Americans fundraising for Mladic's paramilitary forces in the early 90s? Or the Tamils in Canada who helped prop up the Tamil Tigers?

[patrick1]

I would feel that you are proving that most diaspora stay connected to the political situation in their country of origin and that revolution, counter revolutions and even genocides can be planned or funded from somewhere else. This can be left, right or religious in nature. There are hundreds of examples of this from Garibaldi, Lenin, Castro, Khomeini, Marti etc etc. I would feel that each individual case are all a matter of your perspective. Say I was a British pop star whose daddy was a Tamil revolutionary, I might offer a kind word toward the tiger.

[they don't love you like i love you]

You're giving great examples of why I hate identifying with historical culture and ethnic heritage instead of your own affiliations so much...

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

You're giving great examples of why I hate identifying with historical culture and ethnic heritage instead of your own affiliations so much...

Historical culture and ethnic heritage are 'one's own affiliations' to most people.

[they don't love you like i love you]

You're giving great examples of why I hate identifying with historical culture and ethnic heritage instead of your own affiliations so much...

Historical culture and ethnic heritage are 'one's own affiliations' to most people.

That sure isn't the case amongst people who live in or near Uptown in Minneapolis. Like despite being fictional (since we all know there's still tons of people in real life like them), think of the characters on Girls.

And my point is that using that as "one's own affiliations" results in hatred and people doing nasty things.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

think of the characters on Girls.

I would prefer not to.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Having any kind of affiliations at all can result in hatred and people doing nasty things.

[they don't love you like i love you]

My point really was that the characters on Girls, even if they are fictitious, are completely representative of millions of people, and those people are unlikely to put any value on culture and heritage.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

My point really was that the characters on Girls, even if they are fictitious, are completely representative of millions of people, and those people are unlikely to put any value on culture and heritage.

I know that. Believe me. I do.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

A big reason Shakespeare comes across as boring is that it has often been performed so boringly.

I think very few people can understand the language today.  Its rather like listening to people from the North of England talking - you get some very rough idea what is going on, but it isn't fun after about five minutes.

^^^^^^^
Biggest waste of high school. And that says a lot. He gets crazy respect because he's old.  The iambic pentameter is an impressive feat, but it's also a pretty stupid literary device that I find very distracting. It's like somebody is dribbling a basketball during every play. His storytelling isn't all that imaginative. He took a lot of ideas from others, as the idea of plagiarism wasn't yet a thing.  

Having unoriginal story elements does not make storytelling unimaginative.  It's in the combination, the use of perspective, theme, dramatic presentation, etc.

[they don't love you like i love you]

A big reason Shakespeare comes across as boring is that it has often been performed so boringly.

I think very few people can understand the language today.  Its rather like listening to people from the North of England talking - you get some very rough idea what is going on, but it isn't fun after about five minutes.

^^^^^^^
Biggest waste of high school. And that says a lot. He gets crazy respect because he's old.  The iambic pentameter is an impressive feat, but it's also a pretty stupid literary device that I find very distracting. It's like somebody is dribbling a basketball during every play. His storytelling isn't all that imaginative. He took a lot of ideas from others, as the idea of plagiarism wasn't yet a thing.  

Having unoriginal story elements does not make storytelling unimaginative.  It's in the combination, the use of perspective, theme, dramatic presentation, etc.

So would you consider Avatar an original piece of storytelling?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

A big reason Shakespeare comes across as boring is that it has often been performed so boringly.

I think very few people can understand the language today.  Its rather like listening to people from the North of England talking - you get some very rough idea what is going on, but it isn't fun after about five minutes.

^^^^^^^
Biggest waste of high school. And that says a lot. He gets crazy respect because he's old.  The iambic pentameter is an impressive feat, but it's also a pretty stupid literary device that I find very distracting. It's like somebody is dribbling a basketball during every play. His storytelling isn't all that imaginative. He took a lot of ideas from others, as the idea of plagiarism wasn't yet a thing.  

Having unoriginal story elements does not make storytelling unimaginative.  It's in the combination, the use of perspective, theme, dramatic presentation, etc.

So would you consider Avatar an original piece of storytelling?

i never saw it. why?

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

A big reason Shakespeare comes across as boring is that it has often been performed so boringly.

I think very few people can understand the language today.  Its rather like listening to people from the North of England talking - you get some very rough idea what is going on, but it isn't fun after about five minutes.

^^^^^^^
Biggest waste of high school. And that says a lot. He gets crazy respect because he's old.  The iambic pentameter is an impressive feat, but it's also a pretty stupid literary device that I find very distracting. It's like somebody is dribbling a basketball during every play. His storytelling isn't all that imaginative. He took a lot of ideas from others, as the idea of plagiarism wasn't yet a thing. 

Having unoriginal story elements does not make storytelling unimaginative.  It's in the combination, the use of perspective, theme, dramatic presentation, etc.

So would you consider Avatar an original piece of storytelling?

One of these factors alone isn't usually enough to save an otherwise poorly-done and derivative piece of hack work like Avatar. Avatar's dramatic presentation wasn't even good, only its visual presentation, which isn't the same thing. I don't think anybody can deny that it was if nothing else an original visual piece.

We also have to distinguish between poorly-done derivative hack work, well-done derivative hack work, and derivative material that is not hack work and has some merit precisely as derivative or transformative material (that is, it tells us something new and interesting about a preexisting story or theme). Such material exists, across all arts, and always has. It's not the fault of medieval and early modern writers that they didn't hold perceived originality of the surface text in as high regard as we do.

[they don't love you like i love you]

A big reason Shakespeare comes across as boring is that it has often been performed so boringly.

I think very few people can understand the language today.  Its rather like listening to people from the North of England talking - you get some very rough idea what is going on, but it isn't fun after about five minutes.

^^^^^^^
Biggest waste of high school. And that says a lot. He gets crazy respect because he's old.  The iambic pentameter is an impressive feat, but it's also a pretty stupid literary device that I find very distracting. It's like somebody is dribbling a basketball during every play. His storytelling isn't all that imaginative. He took a lot of ideas from others, as the idea of plagiarism wasn't yet a thing. 

Having unoriginal story elements does not make storytelling unimaginative.  It's in the combination, the use of perspective, theme, dramatic presentation, etc.

So would you consider Avatar an original piece of storytelling?

i never saw it. why?

It's quite known for a staggeringly unoriginal plot, but still had all the CGI and innovative visual effects and all. But the plot is as unoriginal as they come.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

A big reason Shakespeare comes across as boring is that it has often been performed so boringly.

I think very few people can understand the language today.  Its rather like listening to people from the North of England talking - you get some very rough idea what is going on, but it isn't fun after about five minutes.

^^^^^^^
Biggest waste of high school. And that says a lot. He gets crazy respect because he's old.  The iambic pentameter is an impressive feat, but it's also a pretty stupid literary device that I find very distracting. It's like somebody is dribbling a basketball during every play. His storytelling isn't all that imaginative. He took a lot of ideas from others, as the idea of plagiarism wasn't yet a thing. 

Having unoriginal story elements does not make storytelling unimaginative.  It's in the combination, the use of perspective, theme, dramatic presentation, etc.

So would you consider Avatar an original piece of storytelling?

i never saw it. why?

It's quite known for a staggeringly unoriginal plot, but still had all the CGI and innovative visual effects and all. But the plot is as unoriginal as they come.

ok, but as Nathan suggested, there's more to storytelling than visual effects+what you can gather from a plot summary on wikipedia.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Now we're comparing Shakespeare's work to Avatar. Seriously.

Can this thread fall any lower?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

It's not the fault of medieval and early modern writers that they didn't hold perceived originality of the surface text in as high regard as we do.

Yes, preciousness about 'originality' is very much a modern thing. As you'll know anyway, a very, very high proportion of literature from the middle ages is essentially fanfic.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

In any event, mere story isn't why Shakespeare is fantastic.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Like I said, I don't know, it could've either been pruned or I deleted it awhile ago for whatever reason, in the past browsing archives I have thought "wow that was kind of dumb" and deleted a thread. Google's caches stay around for a long time (hence the warning sometimes given that if you post something here you can't just expect to delete it later and have it be gone forever.) If you're implying I deleted it and then made the new one it would've been less work just to bump the old one you know (and you all know I'm certainly not prone against bumping old threads.)

Well we know it wasn't auto-pruned.  That doesn't happen to 2-year-old threads.

So your story is that at some point, you thought "Wow, that's a dumb poll", and deleted it, only to later repost a poll that was basically the same thing?  You're beginning to sound like Bushie... that just doesn't add up, unless you're bipolar when it comes to your views of your own polls.

Actually being "bipolar" on polls might be a good description, since my views can change on them based on a lot of things, including alcohol consumed before making them. I'm sure this isn't the first time I deleted a poll in the archive and made a similar one later.

What's also quite likely is that I wasn't bothered by the poll itself but rather something incredibly offensive that I said later in it (considering the things I said about Irish at the time you're stating it wouldn't be surprising). I know I deleted a lot of stuff with such stuff in it around late 2011/early 2012, my whole finding Jesus time. Around that era wasn't it common that I accused Irish-Americans of being Gaddafi sympathizers? That might've been it actually.

And you are not hostile to Irish Americans now?!

If there is one achievement I could give you, Zachary, it's your ability to make me understand how black people feel when idiot white racists spout off Ku Klux Klan talking points.

You can own him all you want, dude, but he will never understand. More likely, he'll accuse you of loving the IRA.

As I stated in another thread, one of my best friends in real life, who I go to shows with all the time, is Irish. Do you think I have ever accused him of loving the IRA?

Also Mecha is from a Protestant family anyway so it would make even less sense for him to love the IRA than it would for me (his family would be Unionists in Northern Ireland.)

I was more refeering to your general way of thinking. Of course, you took everything literally.

[Хahar 🤔]

Don't get me wrong, I respect Shakespeare's contributions to the English language and no doubt accept that he is the undisputed king of literature, but his works are simply not for me and I don't find much enjoyment in reading them.

He was a playwright. His primary works were really meant to be watched, not read. Imagine reading the script to Pulp Fiction - how many of the scenes would have the same dramatic impact in written format?

Fair enough point.

Does Baz Luhrmann's '96 version of Romeo and Juliet suffice? Cuz I enjoyed that one.

It's a fun spectacle. I'm looking forward to his Great Gatsby.

[they don't love you like i love you]

This is better:

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[traininthedistance]

One can make the argument that valorizing "originality" is not merely just a modern thing, but a historical aberration of Enlightenment Modernism, and that as culture burrows deeper down the rabbit-hole of postmodernism, people are caring less and less, returning to bricolage as the primary mode of expression.

Or, at least, they would if it were not for the arch-Modernist holdover of copyright law.

I for one still have a strain of fuddy-duddy in me, and believe there's still something to be said for at least attempting the Modernist project of finding things "new under the sun", even with clear eyes that perfect novelty is impossible, like any Platonic ideal.