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Citizen (The) Doctor
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« on: March 26, 2013, 11:13:48 PM »
« edited: March 27, 2013, 01:50:19 AM by Citizen (The) Doctor »

So, something very interesting I noticed when I went on Facebook today -- several teenage girls who had changed their profile pictures to equal signs regarding the gay marriage decision while several teenage guys created parody equal signs and statuses about how absurd the act was. And I mean, I know these people -- generally speaking they support they same things and are rather liberal. Whereas the girls I know often do what they do under the terms of social justice, the guys support ideas under the claim of personal freedom, but are often quick to attack ideas that particularly leftist feminists throw out.

Is this a trend that could possibly fracture liberalism as a group in the future? I often find myself wondering what is going to happen when we find ourselves at odds with each other when it comes to certain ideas.

Am I just crazy in thinking about this altogether?
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2013, 11:21:26 PM »

As this forum eloquently shows, there are lots of liberal guys who have a complete blind spot on gender issues. This deeply saddens me.
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Beet
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« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2013, 11:28:55 PM »

Equality is much closer to the core of progressive liberalism than libertarian-ism. Hence, all of our economic positions. I generally support the ethos of personal freedom, but it also can be too reductionist at times, falling into the same trap as the libertarians, and miss out on the real dynamics of society.

It would be nice to see more women taking the lead in liberalism, I think us male-identifying guys do tend to have blind spots, even those that make a substantial effort and are well intended we just don't have the personal perspective to see life from the other side. On this forum though, the presence is a bit
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2013, 06:41:45 AM »

So, something very interesting I noticed when I went on Facebook today -- several teenage girls who had changed their profile pictures to equal signs regarding the gay marriage decision while several teenage guys created parody equal signs and statuses about how absurd the act was. And I mean, I know these people -- generally speaking they support they same things and are rather liberal. Whereas the girls I know often do what they do under the terms of social justice, the guys support ideas under the claim of personal freedom, but are often quick to attack ideas that particularly leftist feminists throw out.

Is this a trend that could possibly fracture liberalism as a group in the future? I often find myself wondering what is going to happen when we find ourselves at odds with each other when it comes to certain ideas.

Am I just crazy in thinking about this altogether?

I think you already see the fracturing in the current liberal/conservative divide. Conservatives today are much more like the guys you describe than a European reactionary in 1830.
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politicus
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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2013, 06:58:23 AM »

So, something very interesting I noticed when I went on Facebook today -- several teenage girls who had changed their profile pictures to equal signs regarding the gay marriage decision while several teenage guys created parody equal signs and statuses about how absurd the act was. And I mean, I know these people -- generally speaking they support they same things and are rather liberal. Whereas the girls I know often do what they do under the terms of social justice, the guys support ideas under the claim of personal freedom, but are often quick to attack ideas that particularly leftist feminists throw out.

Is this a trend that could possibly fracture liberalism as a group in the future? I often find myself wondering what is going to happen when we find ourselves at odds with each other when it comes to certain ideas.

Am I just crazy in thinking about this altogether?

I think you already see the fracturing in the current liberal/conservative divide. Conservatives today are much more like the guys you describe than a European reactionary in 1830.
True. The traditional Conservative emphasis was on personal responsibility (duty, honor etc.), but modern Conservatives are focused on personal freedom which is basically a Liberal value.
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Napoleon
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« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2013, 08:56:32 AM »

As this forum eloquently shows, there are lots of liberal guys who have a complete blind spot on gender issues. This deeply saddens me.

And race issues too.
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Napoleon
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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2013, 08:58:50 AM »

As this forum eloquently shows, there are lots of liberal guys who have a complete blind spot on gender issues. This deeply saddens me.

And race issues too.
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afleitch
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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2013, 09:40:56 AM »

I think you’re looking too closely into it. Men tend not to wear their hearts on their sleeves which is neither a good nor bad thing. On a thing like Facebook they are less likely to do the whole ‘share this link if you want to beat cancer’ stuff that a lot of my female friends tend to do.
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k-onmmunist
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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2013, 12:31:07 PM »

As this forum eloquently shows, there are lots of liberal guys who have a complete blind spot on gender issues. This deeply saddens me.

well, i don't think it would be 100% honest to portray feminism as attacked purely from the right. feminism for a long time was largely a movement of middle class white cishet women - the NOW didn't want lesbians involved when they first formed iirc, and there's still plenty of hatred towards transwomen from even mainstream feminists because they take social constructivism to its logical ends i.e. abolishing gender.
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Citizen (The) Doctor
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« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2013, 12:41:40 PM »

I think you’re looking too closely into it. Men tend not to wear their hearts on their sleeves which is neither a good nor bad thing. On a thing like Facebook they are less likely to do the whole ‘share this link if you want to beat cancer’ stuff that a lot of my female friends tend to do.

This is what I originally thought too, until I noticed the guys went rather out of their way to criticize the practice.

There's a friend of mine who is very liberal but often finds himself at odds with feminism, particularly if it requires PC-ness. This is something he sent me that he mocked a lot over the past week:

http://i.imgur.com/gWe2umL.jpg

Maybe I'm just observing a subset of the population that is particularly grounded in the internet, and therefore a bit less sensitive towards social interactions than a lot of others.
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k-onmmunist
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« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2013, 12:43:59 PM »

I think you’re looking too closely into it. Men tend not to wear their hearts on their sleeves which is neither a good nor bad thing. On a thing like Facebook they are less likely to do the whole ‘share this link if you want to beat cancer’ stuff that a lot of my female friends tend to do.

This is what I originally thought too, until I noticed the guys went rather out of their way to criticize the practice.

There's a friend of mine who is very liberal but often finds himself at odds with feminism, particularly if it requires PC-ness. This is something he sent me that he mocked a lot over the past week:

http://i.imgur.com/gWe2umL.jpg

Maybe I'm just observing a subset of the population that is particularly grounded in the internet, and therefore a bit less sensitive towards social interactions than a lot of others.

i think there's a backlash amongst liberals against what i suppose you'd call new "new left" types, i.e. those with a focus on identity politics and social justice. i spend most of my time on tumblr and there's a culture of that there as opposed to sites like reddit where masculists and such run rampant.
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Napoleon
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« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2013, 01:21:29 PM »

Welcome back WinDis.
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k-onmmunist
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« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2013, 01:22:11 PM »


don't know how long i'll be back for, but thought i might as well pay one of my irregular visits.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2013, 01:25:59 PM »

Hiya!

You a Communist now? Again?
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k-onmmunist
Winston Disraeli
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« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2013, 01:29:34 PM »


hey!

yeaahh, slipped back into marxism. blame tumblr.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2013, 01:35:55 PM »

So, something very interesting I noticed when I went on Facebook today -- several teenage girls who had changed their profile pictures to equal signs regarding the gay marriage decision while several teenage guys created parody equal signs and statuses about how absurd the act was. And I mean, I know these people -- generally speaking they support they same things and are rather liberal. Whereas the girls I know often do what they do under the terms of social justice, the guys support ideas under the claim of personal freedom, but are often quick to attack ideas that particularly leftist feminists throw out.

Is this a trend that could possibly fracture liberalism as a group in the future? I often find myself wondering what is going to happen when we find ourselves at odds with each other when it comes to certain ideas.

Am I just crazy in thinking about this altogether?

I think you already see the fracturing in the current liberal/conservative divide. Conservatives today are much more like the guys you describe than a European reactionary in 1830.
True. The traditional Conservative emphasis was on personal responsibility (duty, honor etc.), but modern Conservatives are focused on personal freedom which is basically a Liberal value.

Exactly. Even though the right wingers on this board stick together out of necessity, there is a noticeable difference between myself/TJ in Wisco and say.. Dibble or SJoyceFla.
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Oldiesfreak1854
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« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2013, 03:06:21 PM »

One of my Facebook friends who is very conservative changed his profile picture to a plus sign.  What's that supposed to mean?
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k-onmmunist
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« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2013, 03:15:16 PM »

One of my Facebook friends who is very conservative changed his profile picture to a plus sign.  What's that supposed to mean?

i'd imagine it means opposite sex marriage > same sex.
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Lief 🗽
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« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2013, 03:32:42 PM »

Equality is much closer to the core of progressive liberalism than libertarian-ism. Hence, all of our economic positions. I generally support the ethos of personal freedom, but it also can be too reductionist at times, falling into the same trap as the libertarians, and miss out on the real dynamics of society.

This is important. There are a lot of different arguments for gay marriage, and as it's expanded from a fringe issue to one supported by a majority of Americans, first libertarians (approaching it from a personal liberty perspective) and now most recently conservatives (approaching it from a family/responsibility perspective) have joined pro-equality progressives. But issues like ending gender/orientation discrimination are much less likely to find support from libertarians and conservatives.
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Kitteh
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« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2013, 03:49:30 PM »

I think you’re looking too closely into it. Men tend not to wear their hearts on their sleeves which is neither a good nor bad thing. On a thing like Facebook they are less likely to do the whole ‘share this link if you want to beat cancer’ stuff that a lot of my female friends tend to do.

This is what I originally thought too, until I noticed the guys went rather out of their way to criticize the practice.

There's a friend of mine who is very liberal but often finds himself at odds with feminism, particularly if it requires PC-ness. This is something he sent me that he mocked a lot over the past week:

http://i.imgur.com/gWe2umL.jpg

Maybe I'm just observing a subset of the population that is particularly grounded in the internet, and therefore a bit less sensitive towards social interactions than a lot of others.

i think there's a backlash amongst liberals against what i suppose you'd call new "new left" types, i.e. those with a focus on identity politics and social justice. i spend most of my time on tumblr and there's a culture of that there as opposed to sites like reddit where masculists and such run rampant.

This is basically the truth (I also lol @ the reddit/tumblr dichotomy as a user of both sites, it's pretty accurate tho).

There's definitely a trend among younger, mostly male, liberals to adopt a "colorblind"/genderblind (never heard that as a term, but I'm coining it because it works here) perspective on things, essentially a belief that "race, gender, etc were big things in the past, but they don't matter anymore" which leads to support of gay marriage but also a dislike or at best indifference towards feminism and other "social justicey" movements.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2013, 04:51:20 PM »
« Edited: March 27, 2013, 04:53:26 PM by Progressive Realist »

I think you’re looking too closely into it. Men tend not to wear their hearts on their sleeves which is neither a good nor bad thing. On a thing like Facebook they are less likely to do the whole ‘share this link if you want to beat cancer’ stuff that a lot of my female friends tend to do.

This is what I originally thought too, until I noticed the guys went rather out of their way to criticize the practice.

There's a friend of mine who is very liberal but often finds himself at odds with feminism, particularly if it requires PC-ness. This is something he sent me that he mocked a lot over the past week:

http://i.imgur.com/gWe2umL.jpg

Maybe I'm just observing a subset of the population that is particularly grounded in the internet, and therefore a bit less sensitive towards social interactions than a lot of others.

i think there's a backlash amongst liberals against what i suppose you'd call new "new left" types, i.e. those with a focus on identity politics and social justice. i spend most of my time on tumblr and there's a culture of that there as opposed to sites like reddit where masculists and such run rampant.

This is basically the truth (I also lol @ the reddit/tumblr dichotomy as a user of both sites, it's pretty accurate tho).

There's definitely a trend among younger, mostly male, liberals to adopt a "colorblind"/genderblind (never heard that as a term, but I'm coining it because it works here) perspective on things, essentially a belief that "race, gender, etc were big things in the past, but they don't matter anymore" which leads to support of gay marriage but also a dislike or at best indifference towards feminism and other "social justicey" movements.

Which is unfortunate, yet understandable (in an insidious way). The ideology that "race doesn't matter" or "gender doesn't matter" is common among many "progressive" types who want to both keep their own social privilege and to deny that that privilege exists, or that they themselves have a role to play in perpetuating oppression. 
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2013, 11:45:02 PM »
« Edited: March 27, 2013, 11:52:24 PM by Californian Tony »

As this forum eloquently shows, there are lots of liberal guys who have a complete blind spot on gender issues. This deeply saddens me.

well, i don't think it would be 100% honest to portray feminism as attacked purely from the right. feminism for a long time was largely a movement of middle class white cishet women - the NOW didn't want lesbians involved when they first formed iirc, and there's still plenty of hatred towards transwomen from even mainstream feminists because they take social constructivism to its logical ends i.e. abolishing gender.

I'm not surprised that many feminists in the past may have held certain awful views, just like many progressive crusaders of the late 19th-early 20th centuries were deeply racist, or like many civil right activists were raging homophobes. Unfortunately, being on the vanguard on one issue doesn't necessarily entail being on other issues.

That said, I'm pretty sure 99% of feminists today are also strong supporters of LGBT causes.

Oh, and welcome back BTW! Smiley
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2013, 11:49:32 PM »

I think you’re looking too closely into it. Men tend not to wear their hearts on their sleeves which is neither a good nor bad thing. On a thing like Facebook they are less likely to do the whole ‘share this link if you want to beat cancer’ stuff that a lot of my female friends tend to do.

This is what I originally thought too, until I noticed the guys went rather out of their way to criticize the practice.

There's a friend of mine who is very liberal but often finds himself at odds with feminism, particularly if it requires PC-ness. This is something he sent me that he mocked a lot over the past week:

http://i.imgur.com/gWe2umL.jpg

Maybe I'm just observing a subset of the population that is particularly grounded in the internet, and therefore a bit less sensitive towards social interactions than a lot of others.

i think there's a backlash amongst liberals against what i suppose you'd call new "new left" types, i.e. those with a focus on identity politics and social justice. i spend most of my time on tumblr and there's a culture of that there as opposed to sites like reddit where masculists and such run rampant.

This is basically the truth (I also lol @ the reddit/tumblr dichotomy as a user of both sites, it's pretty accurate tho).

There's definitely a trend among younger, mostly male, liberals to adopt a "colorblind"/genderblind (never heard that as a term, but I'm coining it because it works here) perspective on things, essentially a belief that "race, gender, etc were big things in the past, but they don't matter anymore" which leads to support of gay marriage but also a dislike or at best indifference towards feminism and other "social justicey" movements.

Which is unfortunate, yet understandable (in an insidious way). The ideology that "race doesn't matter" or "gender doesn't matter" is common among many "progressive" types who want to both keep their own social privilege and to deny that that privilege exists, or that they themselves have a role to play in perpetuating oppression. 

I'm not really fond of "identity politics" myself. Not in the sense that race and gender "don't matter" (really, only an idiot could claim that with a straight face... and if a liberal claims this he's a hypocritical idiot), but in the sense that I think the goal should be to build a society where they, indeed, don't matter. I find it a bit saddening that many movement chose to emphasize difference and identity as opposed to a message along the lines of "we're not blacks/women/homosexuals/whatever, we're just human beings with the same rights as you". That said, this obviously doesn't make me any less supportive of their cause.
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k-onmmunist
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« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2013, 04:23:52 AM »

As this forum eloquently shows, there are lots of liberal guys who have a complete blind spot on gender issues. This deeply saddens me.

well, i don't think it would be 100% honest to portray feminism as attacked purely from the right. feminism for a long time was largely a movement of middle class white cishet women - the NOW didn't want lesbians involved when they first formed iirc, and there's still plenty of hatred towards transwomen from even mainstream feminists because they take social constructivism to its logical ends i.e. abolishing gender.

I'm not surprised that many feminists in the past may have held certain awful views, just like many progressive crusaders of the late 19th-early 20th centuries were deeply racist, or like many civil right activists were raging homophobes. Unfortunately, being on the vanguard on one issue doesn't necessarily entail being on other issues.

That said, I'm pretty sure 99% of feminists today are also strong supporters of LGBT causes.

Oh, and welcome back BTW! Smiley

a lot of them certainly are, idk, maybe i've been skewed by being on tumblr for a long time and seeing some of the more vile segments of the community.

and thanks Smiley
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courts
Ghost_white
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« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2013, 09:21:26 AM »

I think you’re looking too closely into it. Men tend not to wear their hearts on their sleeves which is neither a good nor bad thing. On a thing like Facebook they are less likely to do the whole ‘share this link if you want to beat cancer’ stuff that a lot of my female friends tend to do.

This is what I originally thought too, until I noticed the guys went rather out of their way to criticize the practice.

There's a friend of mine who is very liberal but often finds himself at odds with feminism, particularly if it requires PC-ness. This is something he sent me that he mocked a lot over the past week:

http://i.imgur.com/gWe2umL.jpg

Maybe I'm just observing a subset of the population that is particularly grounded in the internet, and therefore a bit less sensitive towards social interactions than a lot of others.

i think there's a backlash amongst liberals against what i suppose you'd call new "new left" types, i.e. those with a focus on identity politics and social justice. i spend most of my time on tumblr and there's a culture of that there as opposed to sites like reddit where masculists and such run rampant.

This is basically the truth (I also lol @ the reddit/tumblr dichotomy as a user of both sites, it's pretty accurate tho).

There's definitely a trend among younger, mostly male, liberals to adopt a "colorblind"/genderblind (never heard that as a term, but I'm coining it because it works here) perspective on things, essentially a belief that "race, gender, etc were big things in the past, but they don't matter anymore" which leads to support of gay marriage but also a dislike or at best indifference towards feminism and other "social justicey" movements.
i understand the 'white' is implicit there but that's still a pretty significant qualifier to add. also from what i've seen it seems like younger white male 'progressives' in general tend to be much more critical of gun control too. sometimes even to the point of identifying as conservative despite really having little to nothing to do with that other than maybe sharing the isolationism and anti-wall street tendencies of the ron paul crowd and paleocons.
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