SENATE BILL: Living Wage Act (Law'd)

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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Sponsor: Napoleon
Co-Sponsor: Snowstalker

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Senator you have 24 hours to advocate for this of course.


Senator, most of the studies showing minimal impacts on employment from the minimum wage that I have seen concern smaller increase from much lower levels (basically that of US policy options). Therefore, is their evidence out there that the minimal impact on employment from such increases, will also apply to increases from an already high base? Also does the "safe" amount of increase shrink as we get higher up in the level? I would presume there is an inverse relationship between the amount that can be increased safely (with no impact on employment), and the level at which it is being raised from, and that the longer the period over which the change is implemented, the weaker the relationship becomes.

What I am concerned about is the exact numbers and where on the continum this particular change is placed.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

Wouldn't this measure just contribute to inflation more and create a sort of positive feedback cycle?

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

I absolutely support this, as evidenced by my cosponsorship. The fact is, whatever burden it may have on massive corporations (who are making more than ever and are afraid to budge even slightly) is outweighed by the fact that millions of Atlasians are working full weeks, often multiple jobs, and are still in poverty or at risk of falling into poverty. After the minimum wage cut, this is absolutely necessary to support the Atlasian proletariat.

[CLARENCE 2015!]

Raising the 0% income tax bracket to, say, $25,000 or expanding the Earned Income Tax Credit might be a more achievable way of raising the standard of living for lower income Atlasians.

That said, I'll support whatever is politically feasible. I fought against the Right Wages for the Right Regions Act last fall, and I'd like to see it repealed. I just don't know whether we'll have the votes to do that, depending on where President Marokai stands on this issue today.

I agree with you on the first part...

I know from experience that if the minimum wage is raised this drastically- small business owners will be forced to lay off employees... it is as simple as that. I understand and respect the intention but the immediate impact will be more people out of work

[Sopranos Republican]

I am interested to know what the current minimum wage is for those under the age of 18. The Reasonable Minimum Wage Act states that it would be set at $8.50 at the end of the year 2010, but would increase with inflation. Could the GM please provide us with what that minimum wage would be today? I ask because if we are going to propose a drastic increase, I think we should make sure that minors wages are comparable to someone who is only a few months older than them, in some cases.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I would be willing to support and sign an increase to 11.50, but beyond that I would rather not go, at this point. I agree with Nix that there would be more efficient ways to raise the standard of living than just constantly jacking up the minimum wage.

In an ideal world, I do not believe employers should be solely responsible for raising the standard of living for most Atlasians. I don't take this view outside of this game, of course, because the real-world is much more screwed up, but here in Atlasia, we do things much more sensibly. We provide much more relief for the poor, much more public services for everyone, much more generous retirement and disability pensions. We provide ways to lift the poor in a targetted way that do not place an undue burden on employers; so we raise employment separately from our other efforts to raise the standard of living, raising the standard of living and overall income of Atlasians without lowering hiring. I would rather continue down that route rather than increasing the minimum wage again.

[Sopranos Republican]

Matt, I hope that this post provides you with the information you need:

F.L. 52-3: The Right Wages for the Right Regions Act is the most recent piece of legislation relating to the minimum wage.

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I'm not sure whether any region has taken action to lower its minimum wage below $12.00; in the Northeast, at least, the minimum wage is significantly higher than that.

Ah okay, that is for every worker regardless of age? I very much agree with what Senator Nix proposed above, about raising the 0% income tax bracket to those who make $25,000 or less. As for this bill, I could support raising the minimum wage to $11.50, but as the President said, I think after that we maybe should explore other options. Listen, there comes a point, where whether we want to accept it or not, businesses will start laying workers off if they cannot afford to pay everyone anymore. I think it's much better to have, say, 20 people working at $11.50 per hour, than 10 people at $12.50 per hour.

[bgwah]

Wouldn't this actually lower the minimum wage set by the previous Living Wage Act?

[Marokai Backbeat]

Wouldn't this actually lower the minimum wage set by the previous Living Wage Act?

https://uselectionatlas.org/AFEWIKI/index.php/Right_Wages_for_the_Right_Regions_Act

[Napoleon]

an already high base?

We have a 43 cent gas tax. I'm just offering some perspective here.

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This is essentially the current minimum wage, as I don't think any regions have lowered it. The goal of this is to make sure they do not, because the economic impacts of doing so now would be devastating to the working poor. Because this is essentially the current wage, or in the case of the Northeast, lower than current wages, the net effect on businesses will be ZERO.

Wouldn't this actually lower the minimum wage set by the previous Living Wage Act?

No, I wouldn't do that dude.

Raising the 0% income tax bracket to, say, $25,000 or expanding the Earned Income Tax Credit might be a more achievable way of raising the standard of living for lower income Atlasians.

That said, I'll support whatever is politically feasible. I fought against the Right Wages for the Right Regions Act last fall, and I'd like to see it repealed. I just don't know whether we'll have the votes to do that, depending on where President Marokai stands on this issue today.

There's some trade offs in Atlasia compared to America. The cost of living is much higher, but social services are far superior. Most of these wage earners would not have to purchase healthcare for themselves, but basics like food and gas will be more costly. I think we should stop playing games with the tax system with tax credits and the like. I would rather someone earn more and pay tax than earn less and pay no tax. We're all in this together; the last thing our government should do is tell the people that only some of you will be contributing to what our government provides.

I know from experience that if the minimum wage is raised this drastically- small business owners will be forced to lay off employees... it is as simple as that. I understand and respect the intention but the immediate impact will be more people out of work

Senator- with all due respect, no one will be laid off because of this change. The current minimum wage in each region is already $12, this bill will only prevent that wage from lowering. And considering the cost of living here compared to what you may be used to in the US, $12 is not as much as it sounds. It's probably the equivalent of $8 or $9.

I absolutely support this, as evidenced by my cosponsorship. The fact is, whatever burden it may have on massive corporations (who are making more than ever and are afraid to budge even slightly) is outweighed by the fact that millions of Atlasians are working full weeks, often multiple jobs, and are still in poverty or at risk of falling into poverty. After the minimum wage cut, this is absolutely necessary to support the Atlasian proletariat.

Exactly. And there is no shame in needing assistance from the government in hard times, but no one wants to be dependent on the system. Atlasian workers should be able to support themselves with their own pay.

[Napoleon]

I also urge the Senators to keep in mind that the standard work week is 32 hours. So employees get less hours, and will need higher wages to be able to support a family.

My conservative colleagues may have some doubts about this proposal. I ask them to please consider the differences between Atlasia and the United States when we discuss this bill. As Governor, I proposed and passed a minimum wage increase because it was the right thing to do. The conservative members of the Assembly joined me in supporting that measure, and I don't think they regret it.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

I'd rather make the work week longer.

[Napoleon]

I'd rather make the work week longer.

And kill jobs?

[CLARENCE 2015!]

I also urge the Senators to keep in mind that the standard work week is 32 hours. So employees get less hours, and will need higher wages to be able to support a family.

My conservative colleagues may have some doubts about this proposal. I ask them to please consider the differences between Atlasia and the United States when we discuss this bill. As Governor, I proposed and passed a minimum wage increase because it was the right thing to do. The conservative members of the Assembly joined me in supporting that measure, and I don't think they regret it.

That was my flaw here... I figured the minimum wage was as it is in the USA... I can support this

[HagridOfTheDeep]

I'd rather make the work week longer.

And kill jobs?

Either option does that, but at least making the work week longer would provide a more stable framework for economic growth. Currently, when we talk jobs, we might as well just call them "half-jobs." Since you want us to consider raising the minimum wage in the context of this work week, the implication is that people aren't making a good enough living with the small number of hours. Why not give people more hours instead of disrupting the balance of the economy? We can overvalue minimum wage work all we want, but the market assigns a value to that work relative to every other aspect of the economy—you move the value of the work up, and the value of everything else will follow.

I don't really want to to change any of these things at the moment, but if I had to pick one, yeah—I'd rather lengthen the work week and keep the minimum wage down. Otherwise, we'll only encourage outsourcing and lay-offs.

I'm more in favour of Nix's proposal than anything, but I suppose I just don't see why the situation is so pressing. We're just coming out of a recession at the moment, so yes, people will be struggling more than they may have struggled in the past. But a big change that could see more lay-offs isn't a risk I'm inclined to take in this delicate environment.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Would it be a crazy idea, then, to propose an amendment that extends the work week to 35 hours, raises the minimum wage to 11.00 flat, and increases tax rebates for the poor? I feel like that's a very balanced approach that accomplishes what everyone here wants and is reasonably fair to the private sector.

[Napoleon]

Either option does that,

The minimum wage has not been lowered in any region, so the minimum wage no matter where someone lives is at least $12. Explain how this bill would kill jobs.

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How is that the case?

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32 hours is not half a job. I don't know anyone who works 64 hours a week.

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Some people aren't making a good enough living for the amount of work they do regardless of hours. They just happen to be paid hourly.

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Because I don't support the sort of anti-family wage slave policy that keeps parents working all week while their kids sit mostly unattended in day care centers. People can and do work more than 32 hours, and they get compensated fairly with over time pay. I'm concerned about those who are at risk of having their lifestyle subject to the whims of a regional government. The poor are not pawns to be used in a political power play at the benefit of the corporations.

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Atlasia hasn't been in a recession. The Atlasian economy has been steadily growing since President Polnut's second term and all throughout my presidency.

I'm firmly opposed to repealing any of the progress made during the Snowguy administration. I'm willing to discuss and examine any options that are offered in good faith that retain the spirit of our progressive society, but I don't think rolling back the clock will benefit workers, consumers, or employers at this point in time. A healthy middle and working class is necessary for the capitalist system we have to sustain itself.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

Either option does that,

The minimum w.age has not been lowered in any region, so the minimum wage no matter where someone lives is at least $12. Explain how this bill would kill jobs.

I think the continuous wage increase will be disproportionately unfair to the kinds of businesses that normally hire minimum wage workers. We've never had a rolling wage before. Small businesses that have a hard enough time catching up with inflation when it comes to existing operating costs will now have to deal with more costs. Sure, maybe the solution is to raise their prices for consumers, but that might negatively impact how well the business is able to compete with multinational corporations. Plus, if these small businesses do raise their prices to consumers, it'll see inflation rise, which, in turn, will require a wage hike.

What you saw in Oregon, which has had its minimum wage tied to the cost of living since 2002, speaks to some of the problems. Restaurant employees particularly suffered: Where in 1996 the average establishment employed 16.4 workers, the average establishment only employed 13.8 workers in 2011. The figures have stayed flat for the rest of the country. Maybe the drop only happened in new restaurants—I don't know. It still hurt the jobs potential, which isn't something I think we should take lightly.

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How is that the case?[/quote]

In comparison to the system that would create a positive feedback loop of inflation, giving people more hours (without forcing employers to pay them for time and a half) would put more money in individuals' pockets. People would be laid off, but the extra money that the remaining folks earned would give them additional purchasing power that those dollars couldn't have unlocked when they were split between two workers. That purchasing power would create the demand for additional jobs elsewhere, and the hours for those jobs would be more sufficient than the hours for jobs under the current system. Tying the minimum wage to inflation might give individuals more money, but only because it will cost more to buy things. Plus, the possibility of lay-offs (or at least reduced growth potential) is still there, and here the employer would have to pay more out of pocket than he or she would if the work week was extended. Paying more out of pocket may be a problem for small businesses if the competitive framework of their industry prevents them from raising their prices in a viable way.

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32 hours is not half a job. I don't know anyone who works 64 hours a week.[/quote]

I guess you missed the hyperbole.

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Some people aren't making a good enough living for the amount of work they do regardless of hours. They just happen to be paid hourly.[/quote]

Fair enough, but if they're making minimum wage, they're still doing better than the people who are earning minimum wage but only get to work 32 hours a week.

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Because I don't support the sort of anti-family wage slave policy that keeps parents working all week while their kids sit mostly unattended in day care centers. People can and do work more than 32 hours, and they get compensated fairly with over time pay. I'm concerned about those who are at risk of having their lifestyle subject to the whims of a regional government. The poor are not pawns to be used in a political power play at the benefit of the corporations.[/quote]

I'm sorry, but the eight-hour work day is not "wage slave policy." It's a job. If so many people work it already, it can't exactly be too out of the mainstream. Except maybe the employers could hire more people if they weren't forced to pay overtime to these folks who are working what would be considered a normal day anywhere else. In Ontario, overtime pay only kicks in after 44 hours.

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Atlasia hasn't been in a recession. The Atlasian economy has been steadily growing since President Polnut's second term and all throughout my presidency. [/quote]

Yeah, so we're one year out of it. I said we're coming out of a recession. I wasn't a member of Atlasia during the worst of it, but it's my understanding that we did have one. One year out with moderate growth isn't exactly the best of circumstances.

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I agree that a healthy middle class is necessary. Much like the thriving middle class we saw under the Fordist 40-hour work week.

[CLARENCE 2015!]

The work week is 32 hours here???

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The work week is 32 hours here???

https://uselectionatlas.org/AFEWIKI/index.php/The_Productivity_Equalization_and_Worker_Employment_Act

Duke and I, standing alone, together:
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=144935.msg3119536#msg3119536

Good Times

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

an already high base?

We have a 43 cent gas tax. I'm just offering some perspective here.

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This is essentially the current minimum wage, as I don't think any regions have lowered it. The goal of this is to make sure they do not, because the economic impacts of doing so now would be devastating to the working poor. Because this is essentially the current wage, or in the case of the Northeast, lower than current wages, the net effect on businesses will be ZERO.

This bill maybe, but that was partially my concern and why I decided to back the Right Wages for Right Regions Act to provide a certain to degree of an ability for a differential in regions that also have different standards of living, for one, but also different economic conditions.  The concern hasn't vanished, however.

The other concern was that expressed by Hagrid, concerning what happened in the state of Oregon. And I would remind everyone that the RWRR bill has a minimum below which the Regions can't go below, as well and that is above $10. I might increase the numbers in the RWRR, but I prefer to keep the legal range that it established, to provide flexibility.

As I have previously established, I am sympthetic to the notion of a living wage and have expressed that in the past: https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=102029.msg2146765#msg2146765 More Good Times!

In fact, I can remember when Napoleon was complaining about my position, for an entirely different reason:

Honestly, the vote totals on this should be way closer. I mean, I support the bill and all,  but I don't understand why the right wingers actually forgo the easy fight.

If I see any, I will let you know.

However, I am a practical person and I am also very cautious, especially when it comes to determing whether or not someone has food to eat next month. A living wage is wonderfull, but if your unemployed the minimum wage is irrelevant because you can't reap the benefits. I have some understanding of how business works, not just those evil, giant bastards everyone focuses on, but also the small ones. That is why I incorporated a tax benefit for them into the Living Wage Act of 2011, which I then supported. However, when Marokai brought forward the RWRR, I was confronted with an interesting situation and considering my affinity for letting the regions possess as much lattitude as possible anyway, it was a natural bridge to come to support the RWRR. Because it was a range, not a complete blank check for one. From my perspective, I don't see the said bill as incompatible or hostile to the goal of a living wage, but rather a useful tool in moving towards that end, with as few negative consequence as possible.

[bgwah]

Wouldn't this actually lower the minimum wage set by the previous Living Wage Act?

https://uselectionatlas.org/AFEWIKI/index.php/Right_Wages_for_the_Right_Regions_Act

Oh, so yet another one of my bills is being debated and amended again. What can I say? Best senator ever etc.

[Napoleon]

provide a certain to degree of an ability for a differential in regions that also have different standards of living, for one, but also different economic conditions.

That ability is there, and is the reason why the Northeast has a minimum wage higher than this bill proposes.

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I would need to see more information about that before I find it credible.

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So you and Marokai have both proposed previously exactly what I'm proposing now. Interesting.

[Napoleon]

I think we should stop playing games with the tax system with tax credits and the like. I would rather someone earn more and pay tax than earn less and pay no tax. We're all in this together; the last thing our government should do is tell the people that only some of you will be contributing to what our government provides.

The income tax is far from the only federal tax that Atlasian citizens pay, so this argument (like the "skin in the game" line the RL Republicans love to trot out) doesn't make much sense. The people to whom we'd be extending relief from the income tax would still be paying our gas tax, payroll tax, etc.

I'm very aware of that, however, this isn't like the Republican argument that is used to justify flat taxes at all. The fact that we have those other taxes is precisely why I think our minimum wage can and should be higher than what one would expect in America.

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I support the EITC. I just don't think we need to keep expanding the EITC, and ignore the minimum wage. But I don't think you're trying to do that.