Opinion of Memphis

[Gustaf]

You just don't get it Gustaf. Sure, you and others think Memphis said some awful things. I am not going to quarrel with you on that point. The point is that some right wingers also espouse some disgusting views and you find it "distasteful" that people go after them (most of them are genuinely offended by those and not just joining in). And yet you are more than happy to jump on Memphis. So what is the difference between Memphis and those right wingers? Is it that Memphis can get 40% FF votes and otherwise has left wing views. So if some right winger here can get 40% FF votes but then starts to go off the deep end about gay people, would you criticize him or would you find it "distasteful"?

I think you just don't get it.

I have limited time and I don't have a need to feel good about myself by joining an Atlas mob. Whenever someone says something negative about gay people, for example, there will be dozens of posters ranting and raving about it. So I feel no need to join in and say "look, I'm also a good person!"

And sometimes, when I feel people are being unduly persecuted, I'm willing to defend them even if I disagree with them. To people like BRTD that's a horrible thing to do, but I never understood why.

In the case of Memphis, there is a need to speak out against him because tons of people support him. And in a broader sense, misogyny is so accepted on here that there is a need to argue against that in general. It's also an issue I care about, for reasons I've stated previously.

And, again, this is all an extremely weak defense of the things Memphis said. You're trying to make it into me being hypocritical or something. Even if I am, that doesn't justify his misogyny.

[Sbane]

Why do you think I am defending Memphis? I am certainly not doing that. I am just pointing out your hypocrisy. You can try and dodge it all you want but you are a hypocrite. Your excuse that you only do it when 90% of the forum doesn't agree on something is extremely weak.

And if you really don't like us and think we are all a bunch of raving misogynists, then why don't you just leave and not post here? I think that would be best for everyone involved. You wont have to lower yourself to speak with us and we won't have to deal with your pretentious bullsh**t. Thanks a lot.

[Gustaf]

Why do you think I am defending Memphis? I am certainly not doing that. I am just pointing out your hypocrisy. You can try and dodge it all you want but you are a hypocrite. Your excuse that you only do it when 90% of the forum doesn't agree on something is extremely weak.

And if you really don't like us and think we are all a bunch of raving misogynists, then why don't you just leave and not post here? I think that would be best for everyone involved. You wont have to lower yourself to speak with us and we won't have to deal with your pretentious bullsh**t. Thanks a lot.

I think you need to chill out a little.

I don't see what is hypocritical here. I have lowered myself to your level in an attempt to explain this, not particularly difficult, concept several times now.

You seem to think that I have stated as a principle that one is only allowed to criticize another poster as long as no one else does it. Then it would indeed be hypocritical of me to criticize Memphis. But I never stated that as a principle.

I find the mob mentality of going after someone who is isolated at every turn to be a bit repulsive, even when I dislike the person in question. I explained to you why this is not such a case.

I think you're defending Memphis because you apparently think what you say is relevant in the "Opinion of Memphis" thread. And because you've been defending him from the outset in all of those threads.

I don't think everyone here is a bunch of raving misogynist. I think Memphis is a misogynist. And I think several other posters are on here too. More importantly there is a general culture of tolerating misogyny to a level that I find alarming. People go to great lengths to defend misogynists on here.

Finally, I don't see where criticizing someone for their views is 'pretentious'. I'm just not a misogynist and I try to speak up against it when it pops up. That's all I'm claiming, I don't think that makes me superior to most educated Westerners.

I think you would be advised to come up with more substantial criticisms of someone than finding them pretentious. It is usually just the last resort of the non-intellectual.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Gustaf had no problem jumping on the mob bandwagon against pbrower, who was nothing more than a harmless and easily ignored hack, certainly not a misogynist. And he didn't say anything about the comments in the Sandra Fluke threads, which contained a lot even worse than what memphis has said, and also involved a lot of the controversial right wingers he's accusing people of starting a lynch mob against. Nor do I recall him saying anything about this right wing troll (note the post quoted in the OP.)

[Brittain33]

Enough.

Guys, you have to accept that when some posters are judgmental and sarcastic, it's for good reasons, not like when others do it, when it's for bad reasons. That's all there is to it, per this thread.

Gustaf has defined what are good reasons and bad reasons for himself, and that's fine, you don't have to accept it and he's not going to change his point of view, and he's comfortable accepting that people who don't share his views are wrong.

[patrick1]

I think I have reached a point where I find Gustaf, Gully and to a lesser extent Al descending from the heights to deign to speak to the forum humorous. Spade fit that bill too. This is not meant as an insult or even left handed compliment, mind. Just a general behavior of you are all idiots and I will tell you why you are so. Some are more cryptic on the second portion though.

[Sbane]

Why do you think I am defending Memphis? I am certainly not doing that. I am just pointing out your hypocrisy. You can try and dodge it all you want but you are a hypocrite. Your excuse that you only do it when 90% of the forum doesn't agree on something is extremely weak.

And if you really don't like us and think we are all a bunch of raving misogynists, then why don't you just leave and not post here? I think that would be best for everyone involved. You wont have to lower yourself to speak with us and we won't have to deal with your pretentious bullsh**t. Thanks a lot.

I think you need to chill out a little.

I don't see what is hypocritical here. I have lowered myself to your level in an attempt to explain this, not particularly difficult, concept several times now.

You seem to think that I have stated as a principle that one is only allowed to criticize another poster as long as no one else does it. Then it would indeed be hypocritical of me to criticize Memphis. But I never stated that as a principle.

I find the mob mentality of going after someone who is isolated at every turn to be a bit repulsive, even when I dislike the person in question. I explained to you why this is not such a case.

I think you're defending Memphis because you apparently think what you say is relevant in the "Opinion of Memphis" thread. And because you've been defending him from the outset in all of those threads.

I don't think everyone here is a bunch of raving misogynist. I think Memphis is a misogynist. And I think several other posters are on here too. More importantly there is a general culture of tolerating misogyny to a level that I find alarming. People go to great lengths to defend misogynists on here.

Finally, I don't see where criticizing someone for their views is 'pretentious'. I'm just not a misogynist and I try to speak up against it when it pops up. That's all I'm claiming, I don't think that makes me superior to most educated Westerners.

I think you would be advised to come up with more substantial criticisms of someone than finding them pretentious. It is usually just the last resort of the non-intellectual.

Gustaf, you seem to have a very high opinion of yourself, which many of us do not share. You jump into a mob and attack Memphis, and now you pretend like that didnt happen. I didn't see anyone coming to memphis's side. You should actually read what I said about Memphis before you say I defended him.

I disagree with you guys on your ridiculous theory that all gender differences in occupations are due to societial causes. I do not agree with Memphis and his opinion on gender relations when it comes to romantic relationships. And I don't see anyone here defending him for those comments. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy of not going after right wingers when they say stupid things. And then patting yourself on the back for it like a pretentious ass.

I do say what I think of people too much sometimes. I said Memphis acts like a douche at times and I think you can come off as pretentious at times. This is not an argument I am making, just my assessment of you. Perhaps I shoul just keep it to myself. I apologize for not doing so.

[Kitteh]

It's interesting how this thread has become "opinion of Gustaf".

[Antonio the Sixth]

At least I can be proud of having started a 15-page flame war.

[Gustaf]

Gustaf had no problem jumping on the mob bandwagon against pbrower, who was nothing more than a harmless and easily ignored hack, certainly not a misogynist. And he didn't say anything about the comments in the Sandra Fluke threads, which contained a lot even worse than what memphis has said, and also involved a lot of the controversial right wingers he's accusing people of starting a lynch mob against. Nor do I recall him saying anything about this right wing troll (note the post quoted in the OP.)

Ok, so...I don't actually obsessively read every thread on the forum. That I don't go "^^^" or "I hate X too!" doesn't mean I approve. It just means that doing a PhD takes some of my time as well.

I don't recall commenting much on Pbrower. Again, I don't think you really understand the concept here. Which is not surprising. Abstract thinking doesn't seem to be your forte.

I comment where I think the marginal utility of doing so is reasonable. Sometimes I leave it to others to make points I agree with. Precisely because I don't need to validate my views on gender by posting about it every single time someone is sexist. This was just a case where I felt I wanted to.

This is an entire pseudo-debate of extremely low relevance though.

[Gustaf]

Why do you think I am defending Memphis? I am certainly not doing that. I am just pointing out your hypocrisy. You can try and dodge it all you want but you are a hypocrite. Your excuse that you only do it when 90% of the forum doesn't agree on something is extremely weak.

And if you really don't like us and think we are all a bunch of raving misogynists, then why don't you just leave and not post here? I think that would be best for everyone involved. You wont have to lower yourself to speak with us and we won't have to deal with your pretentious bullsh**t. Thanks a lot.

I think you need to chill out a little.

I don't see what is hypocritical here. I have lowered myself to your level in an attempt to explain this, not particularly difficult, concept several times now.

You seem to think that I have stated as a principle that one is only allowed to criticize another poster as long as no one else does it. Then it would indeed be hypocritical of me to criticize Memphis. But I never stated that as a principle.

I find the mob mentality of going after someone who is isolated at every turn to be a bit repulsive, even when I dislike the person in question. I explained to you why this is not such a case.

I think you're defending Memphis because you apparently think what you say is relevant in the "Opinion of Memphis" thread. And because you've been defending him from the outset in all of those threads.

I don't think everyone here is a bunch of raving misogynist. I think Memphis is a misogynist. And I think several other posters are on here too. More importantly there is a general culture of tolerating misogyny to a level that I find alarming. People go to great lengths to defend misogynists on here.

Finally, I don't see where criticizing someone for their views is 'pretentious'. I'm just not a misogynist and I try to speak up against it when it pops up. That's all I'm claiming, I don't think that makes me superior to most educated Westerners.

I think you would be advised to come up with more substantial criticisms of someone than finding them pretentious. It is usually just the last resort of the non-intellectual.

Gustaf, you seem to have a very high opinion of yourself, which many of us do not share. You jump into a mob and attack Memphis, and now you pretend like that didnt happen. I didn't see anyone coming to memphis's side. You should actually read what I said about Memphis before you say I defended him.

I disagree with you guys on your ridiculous theory that all gender differences in occupations are due to societial causes. I do not agree with Memphis and his opinion on gender relations when it comes to romantic relationships. And I don't see anyone here defending him for those comments. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy of not going after right wingers when they say stupid things. And then patting yourself on the back for it like a pretentious ass.

I do say what I think of people too much sometimes. I said Memphis acts like a douche at times and I think you can come off as pretentious at times. This is not an argument I am making, just my assessment of you. Perhaps I shoul just keep it to myself. I apologize for not doing so.

Where do I say I have a high opinion of myself? I do think I'm a better person than Memphis, true, but that's a low bar to set.

I didn't jump into a mob. I've been criticizing him on gender for quite a while and I've been hounding others like Harry or Opebo on this for years. There is no mob aspect to my behaviour.

I never claimed that all gender differences are due to social causes. I even explicitly agreed with you on this, but you ignored that to insult me, for some reason.

Ok, I can list people who came to his defense.

Joe Republic and Afleitch both have. Bacon King did to some extent. I think you did, but if you deny it, so be it. As noted he is at a 40% FF rating and plenty of people posted this opinion in this very thread. So, overall lots of support and defense.

I'm not patting myself on the back! I'm defending my actions because they're under attack. I sometimes have gone after right-wingers. Regardless, it's very peripheral to everything else. It's a classic fallback when one has no proper arguments to attack the priorities or tone of the other side.

[Gustaf]

I think I have reached a point where I find Gustaf, Gully and to a lesser extent Al descending from the heights to deign to speak to the forum humorous. Spade fit that bill too. This is not meant as an insult or even left handed compliment, mind. Just a general behavior of you are all idiots and I will tell you why you are so. Some are more cryptic on the second portion though.

I'm not descending from any heights. But sometimes forum discourse is seriously at such a low level that I don't think anyone I know would even bother engaging with it.

For example, Memphis has made such silly claims that the standard response from people who aren't 14, male and American would have just been to ignore him the same you would the mentally ill alcoholic on the street corner.

Thinking myself above that level of analysis or perception of reality is not labeling myself a genius. It's just about possessing common sense and above average IQ.

[patrick1]

I think I have reached a point where I find Gustaf, Gully and to a lesser extent Al descending from the heights to deign to speak to the forum humorous. Spade fit that bill too. This is not meant as an insult or even left handed compliment, mind. Just a general behavior of you are all idiots and I will tell you why you are so. Some are more cryptic on the second portion though.

I'm not descending from any heights. But sometimes forum discourse is seriously at such a low level that I don't think anyone I know would even bother engaging with it.

For example, Memphis has made such silly claims that the standard response from people who aren't 14, male and American would have just been to ignore him the same you would the mentally ill alcoholic on the street corner.

Thinking myself above that level of analysis or perception of reality is not labeling myself a genius. It's just about possessing common sense and above average IQ.

Listen Heinreich you aren't fooling anyone with this false modesty

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

This is still going on?

[free my dawg]

This is still going on?

[Bacon King]

Me, catching up with this thread:

[Tetro Kornbluth]

I think I have reached a point where I find Gustaf, Gully and to a lesser extent Al descending from the heights to deign to speak to the forum humorous. Spade fit that bill too. This is not meant as an insult or even left handed compliment, mind. Just a general behavior of you are all idiots and I will tell you why you are so. Some are more cryptic on the second portion though.

I don't disagree. I'm ridiculously moralistic at times. We all have our vices.

I'm still waiting for Sbane's response to me btw.

[Sbane]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

A very small number, yes, but they exist. Why we should define people by their genitals is not something I fully understand but whatever...

Ah, but I am not doing that, am I? I think our trans posters, who probably want to agree with you, will at least have to concede that there is something deeper to gender than just the genitals.

Of course I bet you will say that I have missed the point. Oh you precious little humanities majors!

BTW, women weren't really expected to be doctors either by society. So why is it that they are making quicker strides in catching up in the medical field than in engineering?

I have to admire your smug sense of superiority given your degree. I think that's fantastic. Clearly I'm the precious one.

Have you considered that all social circumstances are the same? Obstacles in Engineering might be greater than those in Health and Medicine. Might. I don't know enough about the actual specifics of qualifications and the social structure of those qualifications that make a judgement - but I'm not the one making sweeping statements here.

For a scientist, you have still yet to prove your point. Where's your evidence on natural inclinations? Where is the evidence that debunks what I just said? Where is it? I thought you were all scientific method and sh**t...

(Btw, I'm not ruling out the prospect that you are right ftr. Just I don't believe there is strong evidence once take out social considerations. As I linked before, we know that girls (and boys too) behave differently academically in different contexts. While it is hardly proof, it does hint what might really be the issue here).

First of all, I haven't seen any good studies on this and there arent any as far as I know. In the end we are all just speculating. If you do know of some, please do let me know.

I definitely agree that 30-40 years ago women weren't expected to become engineers or doctors. You guys think the effects of that are still being seen on current gender composition of college majors and that things haven't changed much from those days. I more or less disagree there. There is some effect still being seen but the fact is that there are almost as many women as men in medical schools in the US. That being said, there is still a wide disparity in engineering majors by gender. These two things are facts and the question is why. I think most of it is explained by differences within the gender.

There isn't a greater barrier of entry to engineering, besides getting through the weeder classes. You could get into a college with an undeclared major and do engineering if you are interested in it and are up to the challenge. Getting into med school has an even higher barrier of entry in my opinion. Why are women scaling one barrier but are not interested in scaling the other?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Sbane,

Fair enough. But I would question this:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

They still aren't. When is the last time you've heard of a female engineer or mathematician in the media, popular culture, etc? I'm not entirely sure medicine is a very good comparison given the long history of female nursing.

We are talking social expectations, norms and social structure (of organizations and institutions) here. Not only official and obvious barriers.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gutCFMc5khY

This is still going on?

Seriously.

[Gustaf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gutCFMc5khY

This is still going on?

Seriously.

Why would you enter a thread discussing a fairly important political issue on a forum devoted to political discussion to explicitly state that you don't care?

Most threads on Atlas are about things I don't care about, but I never felt the need to descend from my heights just to state that.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gutCFMc5khY

This is still going on?

Seriously.

Why would you enter a thread discussing a fairly important political issue on a forum devoted to political discussion to explicitly state that you don't care?

Most threads on Atlas are about things I don't care about, but I never felt the need to descend from my heights just to state that.

I, at least, saw in still in the first page of Forum Community and was simply surprised that discussion was still being had. I'm always going to take some level of interest in this thread because of the amount of effort that I put into arguing in it, although I'm too exhausted to continue doing so myself, at least right now.

[Sbane]

Sbane,

Fair enough. But I would question this:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

They still aren't. When is the last time you've heard of a female engineer or mathematician in the media, popular culture, etc? I'm not entirely sure medicine is a very good comparison given the long history of female nursing.

We are talking social expectations, norms and social structure (of organizations and institutions) here. Not only official and obvious barriers.

Hmm, ok. I was thinking of the various times I have heard about the need to push women to go into the sciences. So I don't think it is like it was 30-40 years ago. And it has worked, but they have mostly gravitated towards biology and the health sciences.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gutCFMc5khY

This is still going on?

Seriously.

My already very positive opinion of Scott has gone up even more for using a Family Guy meme.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Sbane,

Fair enough. But I would question this:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

They still aren't. When is the last time you've heard of a female engineer or mathematician in the media, popular culture, etc? I'm not entirely sure medicine is a very good comparison given the long history of female nursing.

We are talking social expectations, norms and social structure (of organizations and institutions) here. Not only official and obvious barriers.

Hmm, ok. I was thinking of the various times I have heard about the need to push women to go into the sciences. So I don't think it is like it was 30-40 years ago. And it has worked, but they have mostly gravitated towards biology and the health sciences.

The problem is that the problem begins much earlier than that...