Opinion of Memphis

[Sbane]

Needs to realize that he's not the only one living on this planet and that the world is far less black-and-white than he seems to think it is.

I more or less agree with this.

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The fact that he has any FF votes at all shows how unbelievably male this forum is.

Chill out, RandomNewbie.  Memphis is otherwise fine.

Apart from the fact that he's an arrogant, stuck-up twit for whom the only truth is what he believes. For someone so anti-religion - one of the many people who make the anti-religious look utterly awful - he certainly does think anyone to his right is the devil.

I said nothing that wasn't factual. If this forum was even close to gender-equal, Memphis would be sinking like the Bismarck, just as is merited.

I'm actually fairly popular with women who don't have penises. They're a much friendlier and relaxed bunch than the ones that do. Most of them don't needlessly view their lives through the constant prism of oppression.

Ok, this is funny.

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SawxDem's pics are what makes this thread worthwhile.

I totally don't get those. Oh well.

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No lie, the only part of this drama I care about are the faceswap opportunities.

Wait, are those pictures of Memphis? So confused right now.

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Also, great post BK. I am also trying to understand better what would cause someone to think they are of the wrong gender. Is it based totally on expectations society places on the different genders (and if so, don't the same people say all differences between the genders are made up by society...meaning they are still men?)? Or does it go deeper than that. And if it does, how do they know what it is like to be a woman or a man, if that makes any sense. How do they know they are women if they don't know how a woman thinks like. I probably don't make any sense, but whatever. It seems like just asking questions might get you labeled a bigot by some....

[Sbane]

No lie, the only part of this drama I care about are the faceswap opportunities.

Wait, are those pictures of Memphis? So confused right now.

Yeah. To try and prove he wasn't sexist, he posted pics of himself with women, so I made faceswaps.

Even then, riffing on Memphis gets old:

I see. I must have missed that. Or maybe that was in IRC or something.

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Ok, not trying to start a fight but.....let us examine why people think transgendered people think the way they do and the implications that has on their own views on gender differences.

From what I am seeing, it goes beyond just not identifying with gender roles that are explicitly prescribed to us by society, but to how our brain works. This would imply that the male and female brain work differently. Now, I am perfectly comfortable with that and it seems to be the right prescription for explaining why transgendered people think that way. Indeed, transgendered people have been around for millenia. Just look at the Hijra of India, who are mentioned in the religious texts and myths from thousands of years ago. This is not something that was invented in the 1960's, but has been part of the human condition since ancient times.

That being said, does this not conflict with the theory on gender differences most of you ultra-feminists and transgendered people believe in? Of course some differences are due to socialization, but are not most differences just biological in origin? And I am talking about non-physical differences here. That, in my opinion, is why we see so many engineering majors being men, not because women are discouraged from becoming engineers. That is also why women are catching up much faster in fields like the medical feild than engineering. Of course, these are generalizations. My mom is an engineer, and she loves what she does, so I know this is not some hard and fast rule. But generally, it is true. And I believe it is due to these biological differences that most transgendered people are not comfortable in just defying gender norms by not playing sports or whatever, but feel deeper inside them that something just isn't right.

Well, that was my rant, hopefully it makes a little sense.

PS: And to add, I do believe there are societal reasons for why women get held back at a certain level. I think in the coming years, we will see more women graduating from medical schools than men. Yet, at the same time I think the vast majority of leadership positions in hospitals and the medical profession will be held by men. It mostly has to do with kids and familial expectations, but of course even there biology plays a role, doesn't it?

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BK, I very much appreciate your attempts to bring some sanity to this thread. It's nice to have things in common with people. We can both probably agree that people who spend too much time at the Boot are trouble and are to be avoided at all costs To be honest, I didn't find the culture at Tulane to be at all Southern. If anything, the culture there was most like the atrocious Jersey Shore tv show. Frankly, I didn't feel particulary "at home" there, as I was not accustomed to being surrounded by so many spoiled and extroverted rich kids. I had friends and knew plenty of good people, of course, but it probably was not a good fit for me in retrospect. Nonetheless, three very important points: First, I am not an internet bigot. My opinions and observations have been severely misconstrued and misrepresented by others for their own reasons. If I was not tactful in explaining my positions (and I probably wasn't; tact has never been one of my talents), I take responsibility for that and will try to explain myself in a more productive manner in the future. Second, I did not post the pics to "prove I wasn't sexist." That wouldn't make any sense at all, and I didn't realize until just now that people misunderstood my point in doing so. The pictures were posted in repsonse to a specific allegation that I was unpopular with women. Perhaps it wasn't a wise decision, but I posted the pics as factual evidence in opposition to that statement, not to make any sort of point about my own personal ideology. And my third, and by far most important, point, I have never lived in suburbia. I find that lifestyle abhorrent and a crime against nature To make an inperfect comparison, East Memphis (where I've always lived except during college) is most similar to Buckhead in Atlanta except that Memphis is not exploding with newness and popularity the way Atlanta is, and I grew in a bizarre, though quiet and totally acceptable to me, little corner of it where incomes are far closer to average. I know from experience what it's like to have my immediate neighborhood referred to as "Whitetrashville." My public high school was extremely diverse (for Memphis)  racially, economically, and academically. We consistently had more National Merit Semi-Finalist than any other school in Tennessee, most of whom came from well to do families, and we also had a lot of very underprivileged kids who were bused in from Orange Mound, Memphis's version of New Orleans' infamous 9th ward for desegregational purposes. My parents always found it surprising that we had a decent number of South and East Asians. In their day, everybody was supposed to be either black or white. I missed that diversity at Tulane a lot. Moreso economically than anything else. I'm sure it's just my own very average background, but I've always found wealthy enclaves to be lacking in...I would say authenticity, but they're clearly real. Lacking something vital to humanity anyhow. For that I reason, I'm probably the only person ever to prefer Oakland to San Francisco. At Tulane, I even knew Chuck Schumer's niece pretty well. She was a lovely young lady, though I did not get a chance to meet her before the nose job she got for her 18th birthday. I'm sure she was just as lovely a person before as well
Shane, I think it's cool that your mom is an engineer. Mine was a math teacher who took an interest in amateur computer programming way back in the 80s before most Americans knew how to turn on a computer. She even had a few BASIC language educational programs copyrighted or patented (I always confuse the two) just for kicks. I feel compelled to say that I do not appreciate being referred to as a douche, and I want you to know I would never refer to you or any other Atlas poster in such a manner. I'm far from perfect, but I do try as best I can to refrain from that sort of petty name calling. And, I would like to pre-emptively apologize before anybody brings up an embarassing posting of mine that contradicts that statement. Nonetheless, I was pleased to see that you were willing to stop and think about the issue of the sexes and offer your own non-orthodox (for the forum) views. I highly value independent thought and not just when it agrees with me. I readily admit that I can get irrationally outraged by those who just instinctively follow the crowd in debate situations. I've always been a marching to the beat of his own drummer kind of guy. That's one of my biggest issues with organized religion. I don't like institutions tell people what they have to believe and I especially don't like it when they use untestable threats to reinforce it.   Some may have noticed I made a big stink about it when certain politicians suddenly rushed to agree with me on gay marriage, a position I have supported ever since I became interested in politics. Perhaps if I were more of a cup half full kind of guy, I would've been content to be "right" on that one and call it a day. But I was annoyed because I felt like so many members of the public hadn't really "learned" anything about critical thinking but were just following the crowd, albeit my direction I sincerely hope you are not demonized for your convictions, though I don't think I'm being unfair in saying that would be the logical outcome based upon how similar statements have been received in the past. Perhaps your likable personality will prevent another wave of indignation. I certainly hope so.
All that said, I wish all members of humanity well (including the otherkin, of whom I just learned a few hours ago) and I hope that many of you can recognize that nothing I've said stems from a personal hatred for any groups of people. Perhaps we all would do well to question the truths that we clutch tightly more often. We could all be less quick to judge others and make false assumptions, myself included.

First of all, you are not the only one who would prefer parts of Oakland over San Francisco. Trust me, you wouldn't like East Oakland. Not only is it just dangerous, it is also kinda suburban. North Oakland and Berkeley are superior to many areas in San Francisco as far as I am concerned. Though places like the Mission and the Haight/Ashbury are pretty cool and not as pretentious as the Marina/Nob Hill/North Beach etc.

I don't know if I called you a douche. Maybe I did. I thought I called you some other name. Whatever I called you, I said it because that is how you present yourself at times. It wasn't meant to just be an insult, but how I see you at certain times. For example when you are speaking to Torie. Yeah, he doesn't agree on you on many things. So? If you read his posts, you will see that he genuinely feels that his policy positions will lead to a better society for everybody, including the poor. I can't say I agree with him on everything, and neither do you have to, but what's up with the hate? He has never said he comes up with policy positions to further his wealth, unlike some on this forum (looking at you jaichind). He just really thinks he is right. And you should show respect to his views even if you disagree with them, just as he shows respect to your views. You need to be more tolerant of other people's views, even if you disagree with them. I think both me and you disagree with the views on gender held by certain people on this forum, but I don't go at them in the aggressive fashion that you do. And in the end, you have to show some respect for their viewpoints.

[Sbane]

Ok, I read the longer posts on the last page now. So I should comment.

I don't consider what Sbane said to be particularly offensive. Nor do I necessarily disagree.

There seem to be 3 important points of rebuttal coming from Memphis or people supporting him.

1. Men and women display inherent differences

There are a couple of things to say on this. Everyone agrees men and women behave differently, on average. That's pretty clear. The question is to what extent this depends on biology. This is an open question. The short answer is that we don't know for sure. What we do know is that social norms play a big part - this is evident in part due to changing gender roles throughout history and across the globe. But also in how peoples' behaviour in general is clearly very variant with culture. Thus, the idea that society is currently going too far in forcing gender equality onto natural differences is quite dubious. If one wants to argue this you need to indicate awareness of this other stuff to be taken seriously.

Secondly, and this is more important, even if there are such differences how should society treat them? If women are on average less suited to be engineers there will still be plenty of excellent female engineers. Constantly pushing the narrative of how women are worse engineers will do these women a great disservice.

To give a random example. If I'm making a movie about some criminal I could say that the criminal should definitely be black because blacks are so overrepresented in crime. But many of us might consider such an attitude to be problematic, precisely because it leads to people crossing the street when they see a young black male on the same side. Social stigmas matter, which leads to the next point.

Yes, Gustaf, there will still be plenty of excellent women engineers, and in case you missed it, my mom is one of them. I know you are having fun with strawmen, but please stop misrepresenting my position. Got it?

All I have said is that GENERALLY (hopefully you understand the meaning of the word Gustaf) women are not as interested in being engineers as the subject matter does not appeal to them. That does not mean there aren't other reasons why so few engineers and doctors are women. I was just pointing out that the imbalance in genders in the medical field will likely even out very, very soon while the imbalance in engineering and math is likely here to stay. Again, I am speaking GENERALLY here.

There are real issues women still face today. Why don't we just listen to how Sheryl Sandberg herself describes the problem. One of them is that women many times don't take the lead. At least there the problem is mixed between biological and societal standards. I can't say what predominates there. The other more pressing issue is familial pressure. If you want to talk about women's issues and why you don't see them in the high ranks of society, this is the big elephant in the room. As Sheryl described on Meet the Press, she was once dropping off her kid at school. When they got there, one of the other parents (likely a woman but she didn't say) informed her that the kids were supposed to dress up like something or the other, and her kid was not dressed up in such a manner. After dropping her kid off, she felt terrible about it the whole day, and felt that she was a horrible mother. Then she got to thinking, if it was her husband dropping the kid off, would he even be told about it by the other parent? And more importantly, would he even beat himself up about it like she did? As you can see here, both biology and society are at play. This is a complex issue, Gustaf. I don't see why you and others want to simplify it. That is not the correct approach if you really want to find a solution.

[Sbane]

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A very small number, yes, but they exist. Why we should define people by their genitals is not something I fully understand but whatever...

Ah, but I am not doing that, am I? I think our trans posters, who probably want to agree with you, will at least have to concede that there is something deeper to gender than just the genitals.

Of course I bet you will say that I have missed the point. Oh you precious little humanities majors!

BTW, women weren't really expected to be doctors either by society. So why is it that they are making quicker strides in catching up in the medical field than in engineering?

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It's always interesting to note that groups of medical students - there are always a lot in teaching hospitals for obvious reasons - are significantly less male than groups of doctors.

A function of age?

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Because you've never been on a hate bandwagon against any poster before....

I don't do it in a bandwagon way. But often there are others who agree with me at some point. That's not so strange.

I don't have your need to pick a side to root for. I'm more individualist in my mindset, you like to have something to follow.

Regardless of the merits, wasn't there a mob that went after Memphis this last week? Again, not making a judgement, just pointing it out that there was a mob mentality present when you guys were going after him. Why is it ok to go after him in that fashion but not right wingers who might spouse "disgusting" views?

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You just don't get it Gustaf. Sure, you and others think Memphis said some awful things. I am not going to quarrel with you on that point. The point is that some right wingers also espouse some disgusting views and you find it "distasteful" that people go after them (most of them are genuinely offended by those and not just joining in). And yet you are more than happy to jump on Memphis. So what is the difference between Memphis and those right wingers? Is it that Memphis can get 40% FF votes and otherwise has left wing views. So if some right winger here can get 40% FF votes but then starts to go off the deep end about gay people, would you criticize him or would you find it "distasteful"?

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Why do you think I am defending Memphis? I am certainly not doing that. I am just pointing out your hypocrisy. You can try and dodge it all you want but you are a hypocrite. Your excuse that you only do it when 90% of the forum doesn't agree on something is extremely weak.

And if you really don't like us and think we are all a bunch of raving misogynists, then why don't you just leave and not post here? I think that would be best for everyone involved. You wont have to lower yourself to speak with us and we won't have to deal with your pretentious bullsh**t. Thanks a lot.

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Why do you think I am defending Memphis? I am certainly not doing that. I am just pointing out your hypocrisy. You can try and dodge it all you want but you are a hypocrite. Your excuse that you only do it when 90% of the forum doesn't agree on something is extremely weak.

And if you really don't like us and think we are all a bunch of raving misogynists, then why don't you just leave and not post here? I think that would be best for everyone involved. You wont have to lower yourself to speak with us and we won't have to deal with your pretentious bullsh**t. Thanks a lot.

I think you need to chill out a little.

I don't see what is hypocritical here. I have lowered myself to your level in an attempt to explain this, not particularly difficult, concept several times now.

You seem to think that I have stated as a principle that one is only allowed to criticize another poster as long as no one else does it. Then it would indeed be hypocritical of me to criticize Memphis. But I never stated that as a principle.

I find the mob mentality of going after someone who is isolated at every turn to be a bit repulsive, even when I dislike the person in question. I explained to you why this is not such a case.

I think you're defending Memphis because you apparently think what you say is relevant in the "Opinion of Memphis" thread. And because you've been defending him from the outset in all of those threads.

I don't think everyone here is a bunch of raving misogynist. I think Memphis is a misogynist. And I think several other posters are on here too. More importantly there is a general culture of tolerating misogyny to a level that I find alarming. People go to great lengths to defend misogynists on here.

Finally, I don't see where criticizing someone for their views is 'pretentious'. I'm just not a misogynist and I try to speak up against it when it pops up. That's all I'm claiming, I don't think that makes me superior to most educated Westerners.

I think you would be advised to come up with more substantial criticisms of someone than finding them pretentious. It is usually just the last resort of the non-intellectual.

Gustaf, you seem to have a very high opinion of yourself, which many of us do not share. You jump into a mob and attack Memphis, and now you pretend like that didnt happen. I didn't see anyone coming to memphis's side. You should actually read what I said about Memphis before you say I defended him.

I disagree with you guys on your ridiculous theory that all gender differences in occupations are due to societial causes. I do not agree with Memphis and his opinion on gender relations when it comes to romantic relationships. And I don't see anyone here defending him for those comments. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy of not going after right wingers when they say stupid things. And then patting yourself on the back for it like a pretentious ass.

I do say what I think of people too much sometimes. I said Memphis acts like a douche at times and I think you can come off as pretentious at times. This is not an argument I am making, just my assessment of you. Perhaps I shoul just keep it to myself. I apologize for not doing so.

[Sbane]

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A very small number, yes, but they exist. Why we should define people by their genitals is not something I fully understand but whatever...

Ah, but I am not doing that, am I? I think our trans posters, who probably want to agree with you, will at least have to concede that there is something deeper to gender than just the genitals.

Of course I bet you will say that I have missed the point. Oh you precious little humanities majors!

BTW, women weren't really expected to be doctors either by society. So why is it that they are making quicker strides in catching up in the medical field than in engineering?

I have to admire your smug sense of superiority given your degree. I think that's fantastic. Clearly I'm the precious one.

Have you considered that all social circumstances are the same? Obstacles in Engineering might be greater than those in Health and Medicine. Might. I don't know enough about the actual specifics of qualifications and the social structure of those qualifications that make a judgement - but I'm not the one making sweeping statements here.

For a scientist, you have still yet to prove your point. Where's your evidence on natural inclinations? Where is the evidence that debunks what I just said? Where is it? I thought you were all scientific method and sh**t...

(Btw, I'm not ruling out the prospect that you are right ftr. Just I don't believe there is strong evidence once take out social considerations. As I linked before, we know that girls (and boys too) behave differently academically in different contexts. While it is hardly proof, it does hint what might really be the issue here).

First of all, I haven't seen any good studies on this and there arent any as far as I know. In the end we are all just speculating. If you do know of some, please do let me know.

I definitely agree that 30-40 years ago women weren't expected to become engineers or doctors. You guys think the effects of that are still being seen on current gender composition of college majors and that things haven't changed much from those days. I more or less disagree there. There is some effect still being seen but the fact is that there are almost as many women as men in medical schools in the US. That being said, there is still a wide disparity in engineering majors by gender. These two things are facts and the question is why. I think most of it is explained by differences within the gender.

There isn't a greater barrier of entry to engineering, besides getting through the weeder classes. You could get into a college with an undeclared major and do engineering if you are interested in it and are up to the challenge. Getting into med school has an even higher barrier of entry in my opinion. Why are women scaling one barrier but are not interested in scaling the other?

[Sbane]

Sbane,

Fair enough. But I would question this:

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They still aren't. When is the last time you've heard of a female engineer or mathematician in the media, popular culture, etc? I'm not entirely sure medicine is a very good comparison given the long history of female nursing.

We are talking social expectations, norms and social structure (of organizations and institutions) here. Not only official and obvious barriers.

Hmm, ok. I was thinking of the various times I have heard about the need to push women to go into the sciences. So I don't think it is like it was 30-40 years ago. And it has worked, but they have mostly gravitated towards biology and the health sciences.