Gay vs. Christian - Jason Collins vs. Tim Tebow
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  Gay vs. Christian - Jason Collins vs. Tim Tebow
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Author Topic: Gay vs. Christian - Jason Collins vs. Tim Tebow  (Read 26826 times)
afleitch
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« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2013, 01:51:02 PM »

The point that needs to be made is that our media and pop culture make it acceptable to make fun of Christians, but when someone disagrees with the homosexual agenda homosexuality on religious grounds, they're called a bigot and forced to apologize. There's an undeniable double standard. Bravely standing up for what you believe in should be lauded no matter your belief. If you're an evangelical Christian (athlete or sportscaster) and are very open about your faith, congratulations. That takes courage in this society. If If you're a professional athlete who comes out as gay, you're also courageous. Both people have the right to opine. That's a perfect example of equality that so many people dislike.
You lost me at the part I highlighted in bold. Anyone who uses phraseology the lines of 'homosexual agenda' quite clearly does not advance 'a perfect example of equality.'

Hows that?

You can't disagree with homosexuality, you really can't. As I said, it's like disagreeing with heterosexuality. Sexuality is what it is and is integral to people. You can criticise sexual behaviour if you must, though one has to be careful to apply similar standards. If you believe in equality then you cannot suspend that just for LGBT people. In terms of a hierarchy of rights you could argue that women, LGBT, blacks, left handers etc should have a higher protection than the religious. Religion is a choice philosophy.
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Grumpier Than Uncle Joe
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« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2013, 01:52:52 PM »

The point that needs to be made is that our media and pop culture make it acceptable to make fun of Christians, but when someone disagrees with the homosexual agenda homosexuality on religious grounds, they're called a bigot and forced to apologize. There's an undeniable double standard. Bravely standing up for what you believe in should be lauded no matter your belief. If you're an evangelical Christian (athlete or sportscaster) and are very open about your faith, congratulations. That takes courage in this society. If If you're a professional athlete who comes out as gay, you're also courageous. Both people have the right to opine. That's a perfect example of equality that so many people dislike.
You lost me at the part I highlighted in bold. Anyone who uses phraseology the lines of 'homosexual agenda' quite clearly does not advance 'a perfect example of equality.'

Hows that?

You can't disagree with homosexuality, you really can't. As I said, it's like disagreeing with heterosexuality. Sexuality is what it is and is integral to people. You can criticise sexual behaviour if you must, though one has to be careful to apply similar standards. If you believe in equality then you cannot suspend that just for LGBT people. In terms of a hierarchy of rights you could argue that women, LGBT, blacks, left handers etc should have a higher protection than the religious. Religion is a choice philosophy.

He believes it's a lifestyle choice, perhaps.  Of course he's wrong if he does, but he's not alone.
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afleitch
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« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2013, 01:54:32 PM »

The point that needs to be made is that our media and pop culture make it acceptable to make fun of Christians, but when someone disagrees with the homosexual agenda homosexuality on religious grounds, they're called a bigot and forced to apologize. There's an undeniable double standard. Bravely standing up for what you believe in should be lauded no matter your belief. If you're an evangelical Christian (athlete or sportscaster) and are very open about your faith, congratulations. That takes courage in this society. If If you're a professional athlete who comes out as gay, you're also courageous. Both people have the right to opine. That's a perfect example of equality that so many people dislike.
You lost me at the part I highlighted in bold. Anyone who uses phraseology the lines of 'homosexual agenda' quite clearly does not advance 'a perfect example of equality.'

Hows that?

You can't disagree with homosexuality, you really can't. As I said, it's like disagreeing with heterosexuality. Sexuality is what it is and is integral to people. You can criticise sexual behaviour if you must, though one has to be careful to apply similar standards. If you believe in equality then you cannot suspend that just for LGBT people. In terms of a hierarchy of rights you could argue that women, LGBT, blacks, left handers etc should have a higher protection than the religious. Religion is a choice philosophy.

He believes it's a lifestyle choice, perhaps.  Of course he's wrong if he does, but he's not alone.

Even if it was a lifestyle choice, so too is being a Christian. Allowing rights to one group but denying them to another still would not make relative sense.
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Grumpier Than Uncle Joe
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« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2013, 01:58:19 PM »

The point that needs to be made is that our media and pop culture make it acceptable to make fun of Christians, but when someone disagrees with the homosexual agenda homosexuality on religious grounds, they're called a bigot and forced to apologize. There's an undeniable double standard. Bravely standing up for what you believe in should be lauded no matter your belief. If you're an evangelical Christian (athlete or sportscaster) and are very open about your faith, congratulations. That takes courage in this society. If If you're a professional athlete who comes out as gay, you're also courageous. Both people have the right to opine. That's a perfect example of equality that so many people dislike.
You lost me at the part I highlighted in bold. Anyone who uses phraseology the lines of 'homosexual agenda' quite clearly does not advance 'a perfect example of equality.'

Hows that?

You can't disagree with homosexuality, you really can't. As I said, it's like disagreeing with heterosexuality. Sexuality is what it is and is integral to people. You can criticise sexual behaviour if you must, though one has to be careful to apply similar standards. If you believe in equality then you cannot suspend that just for LGBT people. In terms of a hierarchy of rights you could argue that women, LGBT, blacks, left handers etc should have a higher protection than the religious. Religion is a choice philosophy.

He believes it's a lifestyle choice, perhaps.  Of course he's wrong if he does, but he's not alone.

Even if it was a lifestyle choice, so too is being a Christian. Allowing rights to one group but denying them to another still would not make relative sense.

Hmmm. You missed my point or I didn't state it clearly.  With regards the sentence I bolded, you can disagree with a lifestyle choice.  So yes, he can disagree, I just think he's wrong.
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Nutmeg
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« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2013, 02:09:07 PM »

We all have our different viewpoints, all of which should be expressed in the public arena without fear of ridicule, harassment, humiliation, etc.  The same goes for mainstream view points and outlandish and controversial view points like the demographic dissension that Andrew is talking about.  Everyone has their view points and everyone should be able to express them.  This is America, we are a Democracy, not a Dictatorship.

Yes, Americans are legally permitted to make bigoted statements publicly, but there is no constitutional right to not be ridiculed for doing so.
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« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2013, 02:11:24 PM »

the brand of Christianity that is prevalent in the US has a strong inbuilt need to claim a persecution complex.
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Zarn
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« Reply #56 on: May 01, 2013, 02:18:25 PM »

I have not read the whole thread. The first page probably gave me the gist.

I by no means want to take away what Jason Collins has done. I do not know the man's situation, but I trust that it was not easy.

That said, I sometimes have trouble telling certain groups that I am Catholic, because I have doubts of how accepting they are. I usually try not to talk about anything that could trigger any type of discussion on religion or even what anyone believes spiritually. When some people think Catholic, they think intolerable person who hates everyone for not conforming completely with what they think. It is shocking, when I do hear what people say about a group of over 1 billion people. It is disgusting.

I will say kudos to Jason for coming out. Haters gonna hate.
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #57 on: May 01, 2013, 02:40:06 PM »

False equivalency much?

The Christian Victim Complex is quite cute. "We're the majority, but when you enforce the separation of church and state, or subject our holy book to scrutiny, we're being discriminated against!"

False equivalency to what? You later mention the Muslims and atheists and claim that Christians don't face the same type of blowback. Ok? What's your point? We were specifically discussing someone publicly expressing their Christian beliefs so I was talking about what Christians sometimes face. Being in the majority doesn't exempt us. And this Christian hasn't argued that the separation of Church and State or "subjecting our holy book to scrutiny" is discrimination. That has nothing to do with this discussion.

But let's put our cards on the table. You see the blue avatar. You see that I mention unfair treatment Christians receive in certain circles. You wanted to get your dig in at the "Christian Victim Complex" so you think I only care when Christians are mistreated. "The Republican won't care about the Muslims!" Wrong.

Nathan and Grumps wanted me to clarify my statements. I said that being an outwardly religious Christian can, in some respects, be a challenge in certain areas of this country or in the media. But here's the kicker: you acknowledge that that's true. You admit that Christians suffer some blowback but that's when you went into another victimization routine about how it just isn't blowback of the same magnitude of other groups. Totally irrelevant to the discussion and a point that I wouldn't even dispute. This was just about you getting on your soapbox about Christians.

I also made very clear in my post that this isn't about Tebow being congratulated for being courageously Christian. That isn't what Tebow wants. It's not what I want. The point is that as long as other aspects of culture are accepted without even a second thought, the same should go with Tebow's outwardly religious behavior.
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Middle-aged Europe
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« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2013, 02:42:10 PM »

Gayest. Thread. Ever.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2013, 03:03:15 PM »

the brand of Christianity that is prevalent in the US has a strong inbuilt need to claim a persecution complex.

Only since the 1970s or so... (Except in the south, but even before then, it was different).

Shrill rhetoric, however, often disguises something else... a rot from within? Or a lack of interest from without? What's quite clear is that the Christian Right have lost this issue and are not able to claim any victories (that weren't empheral) since... well, have they ever?
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Nathan
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« Reply #60 on: May 01, 2013, 03:08:22 PM »

Nathan and Grumps wanted me to clarify my statements. I said that being an outwardly religious Christian can, in some respects, be a challenge in certain areas of this country or in the media. But here's the kicker: you acknowledge that that's true. You admit that Christians suffer some blowback but that's when you went into another victimization routine about how it just isn't blowback of the same magnitude of other groups. Totally irrelevant to the discussion and a point that I wouldn't even dispute. This was just about you getting on your soapbox about Christians.

Yeah, that's what it seemed to me like you meant, but I didn't want to presume on your behalf.
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #61 on: May 01, 2013, 03:29:13 PM »

Nathan and Grumps wanted me to clarify my statements. I said that being an outwardly religious Christian can, in some respects, be a challenge in certain areas of this country or in the media. But here's the kicker: you acknowledge that that's true. You admit that Christians suffer some blowback but that's when you went into another victimization routine about how it just isn't blowback of the same magnitude of other groups. Totally irrelevant to the discussion and a point that I wouldn't even dispute. This was just about you getting on your soapbox about Christians.

Yeah, that's what it seemed to me like you meant, but I didn't want to presume on your behalf.

You are a true gentleman, Nathan. God bless.
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bedstuy
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« Reply #62 on: May 01, 2013, 03:55:17 PM »

The point that needs to be made is that our media and pop culture make it acceptable to make fun of Christians, but when someone disagrees with the homosexual agenda homosexuality on religious grounds, they're called a bigot and forced to apologize. There's an undeniable double standard. Bravely standing up for what you believe in should be lauded no matter your belief. If you're an evangelical Christian (athlete or sportscaster) and are very open about your faith, congratulations. That takes courage in this society. If If you're a professional athlete who comes out as gay, you're also courageous. Both people have the right to opine. That's a perfect example of equality that so many people dislike.

This is really distorting what's going on here.  Everyone has freedom of speech.  There haven't been laws against coming out as gay for almost two years.  Evangelical Christians likewise are able to say whatever they want about gays/gayness.  The same is true for the Westboro Baptist church, neo-nazis, the nation of Islam, etc.  The marketplace of ideas however, does not require that everyone respect anyone else's ideas.  If you have unpopular ideas, you have a lot of options: convince people that you're right, shut up or live with the consequences of your comments.  If you want immunity from criticism, you're being a whining baby. 

To compare the hardship gays have been through in America to the hardship of Christians in being openly bigoted towards gays is absolutely ridiculous.  Remember, recently it was illegal to be gay period.  Openly gay soldiers were fired.  Gays in religious communities are shunned and have their lives destroyed.  Gays are the victims of hate crimes, bullying and abuse every single day in America.

I'm gay and if the worst thing I suffered was some ignorant bumpkin disagreeing with my "lifestyle," I would be so happy.  I can deal with people expressing dumb views.  But, don't tell me not to stand up against attacks on who I am because it hurts your feelings.
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afleitch
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« Reply #63 on: May 01, 2013, 04:05:28 PM »

There is a culture of Christian privilege that continues to exist in many rapidly secularising nominally Christian nations. It's a social and in some cases, political privilege that had simply always been there often hand in hand with the nation since it's foundation. Challenges to this norm are often perceived as being 'attacks' on Christianity particularly changed to the social norms. If I can talk about the UK for just a second, Lord Justice Munby and Mr Justice Beatson said in 2011;

"We cannot avoid the need to re-state what ought to be, but seemingly are not, well understood principles regulating the relationship of religion and law in our society.

We live in this country in a democratic and pluralistic society, in a secular state not a theocracy.

Although historically this country is part of the Christian West, and although it has an established church which is Christian, there have been enormous changes in the social and religious life of our country over the last century.

Our society is now pluralistic and largely secular. We sit as secular judges serving a multi-cultural community of many faiths. The laws and usages of the realm do not include Christianity, in whatever form.

The aphorism that “Christianity is part of the common law of England” is mere rhetoric.
Religion – whatever the particular believer’s faith – is no doubt something to be encouraged but it is not the business of government or of the secular courts, though the courts will, of course, pay every respect and give great weight to the individual’s religious principles.

The present dispute is merely one of a number of recent cases where the tension has been between an individual’s Christian beliefs and discrimination law as enacted by Parliament."


This was in response to persistent failed legal challenges to discrimination law. The truth of the matter is that Christians have never in the past been told that the law does not merely reflect and in some cases serve their moral positions because for a long time Christian ethics were the foundation for law and society. The law is now re-iterating to them that they are bound to the same laws on equality with regards to gender and sexuality as everyone else. This is then perceived as discrimination; not the actual acts of discrimination in violation of the law that they have themselves committed. As religious adherence dwindles so that within 20-30 years a super majority of people in Britain (it is currently about 50%) will not consider themselves to be religious never mind Christian, Christians who are troubled by the times (and it is worth pointing out that the vast majority are not) will find themselves having to operate in a public sphere that may either belittle their faith and or consider their moral positions to be abhorrent. Christian groups have to face reality in the coming years and not appeals to historic tradition.
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« Reply #64 on: May 01, 2013, 04:32:37 PM »

Are you joking? Tim Tebow's religion is a big subject every time he comes up. Plus this is the first time a pro athlete who's still playing comes out, whereas there have been countless religious pro athletes in the past. It seems like you're trying to find controversy where there is none and act like a victim for no reason. Close this thread before people bitch you out.

I want to reiterate this loudly
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Thomas D
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« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2013, 05:01:50 PM »



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SteveRogers
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« Reply #66 on: May 01, 2013, 05:11:48 PM »

The main point I'm trying to get across is that if the media is to be neutral on Christianity, not for or against, it should be neutral on homosexuality, neither for nor against.

Following this logic, the media should be neutral on both civil rights issues and the KKK. Wouldn't want to be unfair to either group.

At least allow dissenting view points without being forced to apologize.

America was designed with freedom of speech and that should be enforced and appreciated even when it comes to controversial topics like religion, politics, or sexual orientation.

Oh well, I am going to close this thread.  Like I said in the National Day of Prayer thread, I came into that thread and created this thread with my gloves on looking for a fight.  I don't want this to blow up any more than what is has.  We all have our different viewpoints, all of which should be expressed in the public arena without fear of ridicule, harassment, humiliation, etc.  The same goes for mainstream view points and outlandish and controversial view points like the demographic dissension that Andrew is talking about.  Everyone has their view points and everyone should be able to express them.  This is America, we are a Democracy, not a Dictatorship.

You're distorting the situation and doing a massive disservice to the concept of freedom of speech. The government is not censoring Boussard in any way shape or form, so there is no freedom of speech issue here. Freedom of speech is NOT freedom from ridicule, harassment, and humiliation. Quite the contrary. Anyone has the right to express their opinion about homosexuality, but if they make a bigoted remark, then other people have the right to exercise their freedom of speech by responding with disagreement that may include ridicule and humiliation. Chris Boussard exercised his first amendment right to speak his mind. His employers at ESPN exercised their own free speech rights by expressing their disagreement with those statements and apologizing.

Respecting freedom of speech does not mean that society must tolerate intolerance. The KKK and the Westboro baptist church have the right to say whatever hateful things they want, but that doesn't mean that everyone has to pretend as those are valid viewpoints that should be given due consideration in the realm of public debate.
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« Reply #67 on: May 01, 2013, 05:35:15 PM »

Tim Tebow is a Christian, but nobody wants to talk seriously about his Christianity and wants him to keep it to himself, but people are hailing Jason Collins a hero for coming out as gay?  In fact, the media more often than not makes fun of Tebow for his Christianity, but when Chris Boussard on ESPN does not endorse Jason Collins sexuality, ESPN immediately issues an apology and reprimands Boussard. 

Is the standard now to make fun of Christians, but don't you dare say anything against homosexuality?

Why is this country starting to become more tolerant of homosexual relations than Christianity?

How is this okay?

WTF is this?!

Homosexuality is not a religion.  And what NFL have you been watching?  About a billion+ NFL players have come out as Christian.  One gay guy comes out of the closet and you throw a hissy fit?!

I know of no NFL player that shows up on game day and starts doing homosexual rituals to win the game.  Are you on crack?  The guy did ONE article at the end of his career when NO ONE else did it.  He didn't show up 2000+ years after the birth of Christ in a stadium full of about a billion Christians and then make a habitual annoying ritual spectacle of himself.  I'm a Christian but I don't feel the need to ram it down every other Christians throat.  Now if I was a pro athlete in Saudi Arabia and pretended to be Muslim all my life that might be a different story.  But in America?!  Please stop with the victim mentality.  It makes Christians look like pussies!

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« Reply #68 on: May 01, 2013, 06:12:39 PM »

the brand of Christianity that is prevalent in the US has a strong inbuilt need to claim a persecution complex.

Only since the 1970s or so... (Except in the south, but even before then, it was different).

Shrill rhetoric, however, often disguises something else... a rot from within? Or a lack of interest from without? What's quite clear is that the Christian Right have lost this issue and are not able to claim any victories (that weren't empheral) since... well, have they ever?

maybe build a Marxian false-consciousness construct by claiming the victimhood complex is a relocation of the increasing dispossession of the (white) population reframed within the 'mystified' religious consciousness..
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« Reply #69 on: May 01, 2013, 06:18:56 PM »


This simple-minded chart belies the fact that the only real majority in the US is a secular one that tries to avoid discussing religion (or non-religion) at all costs in favor of a do-whatever-you-want attitude. Great swaths of those identifying as Christian are functionally secular, and practicing Christians are a minority.
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Boris
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« Reply #70 on: May 01, 2013, 07:41:43 PM »

^ I've always thought that pie chart was really stupid (in terms of proving its point), because there's a fairly obvious (at the risk of sounding like Al) historical situation that you could adjust it for and it would be quite true.
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« Reply #71 on: May 01, 2013, 09:34:25 PM »


This simple-minded chart belies the fact that the only real majority in the US is a secular one that tries to avoid discussing religion (or non-religion) at all costs in favor of a do-whatever-you-want attitude. Great swaths of those identifying as Christian are functionally secular, and practicing Christians are a minority.

According to polls a majority of Americans go to church at least once a month, so that depends on how you define "practicing Christian" I guess. It doesn't show that people who aren't purely nominal Christians aren't a minority obviously.

The only other thing worth pointing out is the First Amendment obviously protects one's right to ridicule other people's beliefs just as it protects the right to hold those beliefs. So mocking people for their view on something does not violate the First Amendment. Trying to prohibit this mocking would.
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patrick1
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« Reply #72 on: May 01, 2013, 09:59:28 PM »


This simple-minded chart belies the fact that the only real majority in the US is a secular one that tries to avoid discussing religion (or non-religion) at all costs in favor of a do-whatever-you-want attitude. Great swaths of those identifying as Christian are functionally secular, and practicing Christians are a minority.

According to polls a majority of Americans go to church at least once a month, so that depends on how you define "practicing Christian" I guess. It doesn't show that people who aren't purely nominal Christians aren't a minority obviously.

The only other thing worth pointing out is the First Amendment obviously protects one's right to ridicule other people's beliefs just as it protects the right to hold those beliefs. So mocking people for their view on something does not violate the First Amendment. Trying to prohibit this mocking would.

It would be much better if those people practiced it a bit more than an hour a week or month. Although the way some people express their faith, maybe not.
Keystone Phil nice thoughtful post.
Bushie, take a lap.
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« Reply #73 on: May 01, 2013, 10:01:29 PM »


Did you say nap?  I sure will. Smiley
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patrick1
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« Reply #74 on: May 01, 2013, 10:09:47 PM »


No, go jog and then knock out 20 push ups. Every bad post you make, repeat. Hey if you insist on wasting your day away here you might as well get some exercise out of it.
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