Gay vs. Christian - Jason Collins vs. Tim Tebow
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  Gay vs. Christian - Jason Collins vs. Tim Tebow
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Author Topic: Gay vs. Christian - Jason Collins vs. Tim Tebow  (Read 26824 times)
Zarn
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« Reply #75 on: May 01, 2013, 10:37:04 PM »

It's too late. He is napping already.
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20RP12
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« Reply #76 on: May 02, 2013, 05:22:57 AM »


No, go jog and then knock out 20 push ups. Every bad post you make, repeat. Hey if you insist on wasting your day away here you might as well get some exercise out of it.

Easy, Patrick. We don't want him to weigh nothing after a week.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #77 on: May 02, 2013, 06:54:08 AM »

the brand of Christianity that is prevalent in the US has a strong inbuilt need to claim a persecution complex.

Only since the 1970s or so... (Except in the south, but even before then, it was different).

Shrill rhetoric, however, often disguises something else... a rot from within? Or a lack of interest from without? What's quite clear is that the Christian Right have lost this issue and are not able to claim any victories (that weren't empheral) since... well, have they ever?

maybe build a Marxian false-consciousness construct by claiming the victimhood complex is a relocation of the increasing dispossession of the (white) population reframed within the 'mystified' religious consciousness..

I've never liked term 'false-consciousness' because it assumes there is a 'true-consciousness'.
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ComradeCarter
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« Reply #78 on: May 02, 2013, 07:13:54 AM »

To get back on topic, Tim Tebow is much more doable than Jason Collins in my humble opinion.
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afleitch
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« Reply #79 on: May 02, 2013, 07:30:26 AM »

To get back on topic, Tim Tebow is much more doable than Jason Collins in my humble opinion.

Tebow looks stupid. Not saying he is, but he looks it. And the dumb 'jock' look is not appealing to me.
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Link
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« Reply #80 on: May 02, 2013, 07:46:47 AM »


This simple-minded chart belies the fact that the only real majority in the US is a secular one that tries to avoid discussing religion (or non-religion) at all costs in favor of a do-whatever-you-want attitude. Great swaths of those identifying as Christian are functionally secular, and practicing Christians are a minority.

You either spend most of your time in a high school or a crack house.

No one here who is older than 22 and has a real job exists in whatever environment you are talking about.  There is a general rule in polite productive society that all controversial topics should be saved for discussing at home with your family... preferably not at the dinner table.  There is a saying, "don't discuss religion or politics."  Where I work no one except some screwball right wingers discusses politics.  We show up, get our work done, and go home.  If you asked the majority of my coworkers who I voted for almost 100% of them would probably guess wrong.  Obviously I am not apolitical.

Again we see someone trying to make it out that Christianity is being singled out for special treatment.  I have had about an equal number of political, religious, and sexual orientation conversations at work... which is to say very very few.  Outside of work I have discussed religion and attended both Christian and Jewish religious ceremonies.  I may have had more sexual orientation conversations outside of work but that is simply a function of being astounded in 2013 at the level of hate directed at homosexuals.  If the right wingers and radical Christians would stop persecuting homosexuals I don't think it would come up at all in my conversations.
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DemPGH
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« Reply #81 on: May 02, 2013, 08:54:41 AM »

I'll just say I am very disappointed in Chris Broussard - as a sports fan, hearing him use his religion on air to judge another person's lifestyle is quite distasteful. He always seems angry to me, or always on the verge of getting really riled, so go figure.

Sorry if it has been mentioned, but what I fault Collins for is maintaining an eight-year relationship with a woman and then walking out. I have no idea how she isn't incredibly bitter. It was not right and quite disingenuous to do that to her.

Tebow? He's a rather astute marketer of himself. If he wants to play football, play football. If he wants to preach, preach. If he wants to play QB, he might have trouble there. He'd be much better at tight end or running back, but we've certainly seen these kind of athletes before take the attitude that it's QB or bust when they're just not up to it.
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20RP12
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« Reply #82 on: May 02, 2013, 09:31:37 AM »

I'll just say I am very disappointed in Chris Broussard - as a sports fan, hearing him use his religion on air to judge another person's lifestyle is quite distasteful. He always seems angry to me, or always on the verge of getting really riled, so go figure.

Yeah, this. It was really disappointing to hear, considering I actually had a relatively positive opinion of Chris Broussard prior to that.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #83 on: May 02, 2013, 09:38:51 AM »

the brand of Christianity that is prevalent in the US has a strong inbuilt need to claim a persecution complex.

Only since the 1970s or so... (Except in the south, but even before then, it was different).

Shrill rhetoric, however, often disguises something else... a rot from within? Or a lack of interest from without? What's quite clear is that the Christian Right have lost this issue and are not able to claim any victories (that weren't empheral) since... well, have they ever?

maybe build a Marxian false-consciousness construct by claiming the victimhood complex is a relocation of the increasing dispossession of the (white) population reframed within the 'mystified' religious consciousness..

I've never liked term 'false-consciousness' because it assumes there is a 'true-consciousness'.

there is certainly truer and falser consciousness, if we are to consider property relations to be determinative in the final analysis.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #84 on: May 02, 2013, 09:54:01 AM »

the brand of Christianity that is prevalent in the US has a strong inbuilt need to claim a persecution complex.

Only since the 1970s or so... (Except in the south, but even before then, it was different).

Shrill rhetoric, however, often disguises something else... a rot from within? Or a lack of interest from without? What's quite clear is that the Christian Right have lost this issue and are not able to claim any victories (that weren't empheral) since... well, have they ever?

maybe build a Marxian false-consciousness construct by claiming the victimhood complex is a relocation of the increasing dispossession of the (white) population reframed within the 'mystified' religious consciousness..

I've never liked term 'false-consciousness' because it assumes there is a 'true-consciousness'.

there is certainly truer and falser consciousness, if we are to consider property relations to be determinative in the final analysis.

Which I don't.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #85 on: May 02, 2013, 10:09:13 AM »

then you're acting as a bit of a man without a country when trying to analysis.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #86 on: May 02, 2013, 10:11:50 AM »

then you're acting as a bit of a man without a country when trying to analysis.

Which is the way I like it.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #87 on: May 02, 2013, 11:47:26 AM »

the brand of Christianity that is prevalent in the US has a strong inbuilt need to claim a persecution complex.

Very much so. Also, said brand's followers tend to identify as "Christian" or "Bible-believing churches", as if they and they alone are the only "authentic" Christians.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #88 on: May 02, 2013, 12:10:54 PM »

the brand of Christianity that is prevalent in the US has a strong inbuilt need to claim a persecution complex.

Only since the 1970s or so... (Except in the south, but even before then, it was different).

How much of that persecution complex do you think has to do with the (ancestral) social class status of most white "evangelical" Protestants (and the corresponding "low church" status of their churches?)

When you consider that "Southern-style" evangelical Protestantism is a truly national phenomenon now that has also made big gains in middle-class white suburban respectability (take a look, for example, of the phenomenon of the suburban "mega-churches")...well, there's surely been some kind of cultural assimilation of white "evangelicals" into the broader American mainstream.

White "evangelicals" have effectively joined the broader American middle-class (dare I say bourgeois) suburban culture that they used to pride themselves on being separate from. That has created a lot of tension, both between evangelicals and other groups and within the evangelical communities. Yet white evangelical culture still retains its populist (in a cultural, value-based sense) roots. The difference is, they are now engaging and participating in the broader American middle-class culture as a part of that culture.
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« Reply #89 on: May 02, 2013, 01:02:48 PM »

I'll just say I am very disappointed in Chris Broussard - as a sports fan, hearing him use his religion on air to judge another person's lifestyle is quite distasteful. He always seems angry to me, or always on the verge of getting really riled, so go figure.

Yeah, this. It was really disappointing to hear, considering I actually had a relatively positive opinion of Chris Broussard prior to that.

Agreed.  I'm just glad it wasn't Stephen A. Smith.
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BushOklahoma
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« Reply #90 on: May 02, 2013, 01:29:35 PM »

I'll just say I am very disappointed in Chris Broussard - as a sports fan, hearing him use his religion on air to judge another person's lifestyle is quite distasteful. He always seems angry to me, or always on the verge of getting really riled, so go figure.

Yeah, this. It was really disappointing to hear, considering I actually had a relatively positive opinion of Chris Broussard prior to that.

Agreed.  I'm just glad it wasn't Stephen A. Smith.

There probably would have been a riot if Smith had said that.
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BluegrassBlueVote
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« Reply #91 on: May 02, 2013, 02:18:21 PM »

Some of you liked Chris Broussard before this? The dude is an absolute joke within the sports community.
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20RP12
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« Reply #92 on: May 02, 2013, 02:20:55 PM »

Agreed.  I'm just glad it wasn't Stephen A. Smith.

My brain cells commit suicide when Stephen A. Smith talks.
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benconstine
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« Reply #93 on: May 02, 2013, 03:40:42 PM »

Some of you liked Chris Broussard before this? The dude is an absolute joke within the sports community.

I was neutral-positive on him.  Skip Bayless is my favorite, in that his anti-LeBron stance appeals to me.
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« Reply #94 on: May 02, 2013, 03:42:57 PM »

Some of you liked Chris Broussard before this? The dude is an absolute joke within the sports community.

I was neutral-positive on him.  Skip Bayless is my favorite, in that his anti-LeBron stance appeals to me.

As a Thunder fan.  I concur with Skip Bayless.
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RI
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« Reply #95 on: May 02, 2013, 03:54:56 PM »


This simple-minded chart belies the fact that the only real majority in the US is a secular one that tries to avoid discussing religion (or non-religion) at all costs in favor of a do-whatever-you-want attitude. Great swaths of those identifying as Christian are functionally secular, and practicing Christians are a minority.

You either spend most of your time in a high school or a crack house.

No one here who is older than 22 and has a real job exists in whatever environment you are talking about.  There is a general rule in polite productive society that all controversial topics should be saved for discussing at home with your family... preferably not at the dinner table.  There is a saying, "don't discuss religion or politics."  Where I work no one except some screwball right wingers discusses politics.  We show up, get our work done, and go home.  If you asked the majority of my coworkers who I voted for almost 100% of them would probably guess wrong.  Obviously I am not apolitical.

I'm confused. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?
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Link
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« Reply #96 on: May 02, 2013, 05:24:44 PM »


This simple-minded chart belies the fact that the only real majority in the US is a secular one that tries to avoid discussing religion (or non-religion) at all costs in favor of a do-whatever-you-want attitude. Great swaths of those identifying as Christian are functionally secular, and practicing Christians are a minority.

You either spend most of your time in a high school or a crack house.

No one here who is older than 22 and has a real job exists in whatever environment you are talking about.  There is a general rule in polite productive society that all controversial topics should be saved for discussing at home with your family... preferably not at the dinner table.  There is a saying, "don't discuss religion or politics."  Where I work no one except some screwball right wingers discusses politics.  We show up, get our work done, and go home.  If you asked the majority of my coworkers who I voted for almost 100% of them would probably guess wrong.  Obviously I am not apolitical.

I'm confused. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?

I disagree with the notion that a majority of Americans have a "do-whatever-you-want attitude."  People may not discuss controversial subjects at work or at social gatherings but most people over 22 aspire to have a pretty buttoned down conventional life.
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« Reply #97 on: May 03, 2013, 12:50:18 AM »

the brand of Christianity that is prevalent in the US has a strong inbuilt need to claim a persecution complex.

Only since the 1970s or so... (Except in the south, but even before then, it was different).

How much of that persecution complex do you think has to do with the (ancestral) social class status of most white "evangelical" Protestants (and the corresponding "low church" status of their churches?)

When you consider that "Southern-style" evangelical Protestantism is a truly national phenomenon now that has also made big gains in middle-class white suburban respectability (take a look, for example, of the phenomenon of the suburban "mega-churches")...well, there's surely been some kind of cultural assimilation of white "evangelicals" into the broader American mainstream.

White "evangelicals" have effectively joined the broader American middle-class (dare I say bourgeois) suburban culture that they used to pride themselves on being separate from. That has created a lot of tension, both between evangelicals and other groups and within the evangelical communities. Yet white evangelical culture still retains its populist (in a cultural, value-based sense) roots. The difference is, they are now engaging and participating in the broader American middle-class culture as a part of that culture.

That's a pretty awful description of modern day American evangelicalism, which is definitely NOT an import to the rest of America from the South. I'll elaborate when it's not so late and I have more time.

But there's really no reason for the persecution complex than all groups seeing it. For a secular conservative version look at the people who say things like "White males are the most persecuted group in America today." Or for other examples, look at what people like Dov Hikind consider anti-Semitic, or the Catholic League's reports on "anti-Catholicism" and what constitutes it in their view.
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« Reply #98 on: May 04, 2013, 11:06:30 AM »

Alright. Basically modern day American evangelicalism is NOT the churches of the South from the Civil War to segregation exported to the rest of the country. In fact most Southernors in the 19th century were mainline Protestants, mostly Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian or traditional Baptist (which was more associated with mainline back then.) Pentecostals and most fundamentalist denominations today didn't even exist at time.

Even during the Jim Crow heyday, this was mostly true. The KKK membership was largely Methodist (somewhat ironic since the United Methodist Church today has a pretty large number of black membership, especially in the South, but at the time it didn't exist and was a bunch of smaller factions), and the Southern Baptists were almost mainline and no more conservative than most modern day mainline denominations. Even during the Civil Rights era this was true. The SBC liberalized at the same rate as other mainline denominations until the 80s when this started being reversed with a conservative takeover and shedding of the more liberal churches to more liberal Baptist associations. In 1976 Jimmy Carter wasn't too odd in the SBC (he later joined the American Baptists, a more liberal denomination.) In fact during the Civil Rights Movement most of the evangelicals were on the pro-civil rights side, which makes sense as they were basically the only ones with integrated churches back then. Furthermore most evangelical denominations that ordain women, even conservative ones, did so far before most mainline denominations today did.

Most modern day evangelicals and fundamentalists come from the Great Awakenings, which was hardly something that existed only in the South (the burned over district is obviously not in the South.) Sure the South was affected like everywhere else by it, perhaps even disproportionately, but it wasn't something exclusive to the South that gradually trickled to the rest of the country.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #99 on: May 04, 2013, 04:51:29 PM »

Alright. Basically modern day American evangelicalism is NOT the churches of the South from the Civil War to segregation exported to the rest of the country. In fact most Southernors in the 19th century were mainline Protestants, mostly Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian or traditional Baptist (which was more associated with mainline back then.) Pentecostals and most fundamentalist denominations today didn't even exist at time.

Even during the Jim Crow heyday, this was mostly true. The KKK membership was largely Methodist (somewhat ironic since the United Methodist Church today has a pretty large number of black membership, especially in the South, but at the time it didn't exist and was a bunch of smaller factions), and the Southern Baptists were almost mainline and no more conservative than most modern day mainline denominations. Even during the Civil Rights era this was true. The SBC liberalized at the same rate as other mainline denominations until the 80s when this started being reversed with a conservative takeover and shedding of the more liberal churches to more liberal Baptist associations. In 1976 Jimmy Carter wasn't too odd in the SBC (he later joined the American Baptists, a more liberal denomination.) In fact during the Civil Rights Movement most of the evangelicals were on the pro-civil rights side, which makes sense as they were basically the only ones with integrated churches back then. Furthermore most evangelical denominations that ordain women, even conservative ones, did so far before most mainline denominations today did.

Most modern day evangelicals and fundamentalists come from the Great Awakenings, which was hardly something that existed only in the South (the burned over district is obviously not in the South.) Sure the South was affected like everywhere else by it, perhaps even disproportionately, but it wasn't something exclusive to the South that gradually trickled to the rest of the country.

When I said "Southern-style", I didn't mean that (right-wing) evangelicalism was ever exclusive to the South, just that it was/is disproportionately represented there. Tongue Really, "Southern" is not broad enough-the Great Plains, Southwest, and Lower Midwest especially have had a large "evangelical" presence for a long time, as have cities like Los Angeles which had the Pentecostal revivals in the early 1900s.

You are correct, though, that the modern assumption of "evangelical" as automatically being "Southern" or being "politically conservative" is misleading at best. Probably due to the reputation of the Moral Majority and the Christian Coalition, etc. Tongue
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