SENATE BILL: ...Mental Health Reform Act of 2013 (Failed)
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  SENATE BILL: ...Mental Health Reform Act of 2013 (Failed)
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Author Topic: SENATE BILL: ...Mental Health Reform Act of 2013 (Failed)  (Read 7429 times)
Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #175 on: August 15, 2013, 08:31:09 PM »

For the record, I can confirm that I have had discussions with President on this Bill, and I detected no personal ill-will towards Senator Yankee from him.
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Sbane
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« Reply #176 on: August 15, 2013, 10:59:40 PM »

Aye
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bore
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« Reply #177 on: August 16, 2013, 07:47:08 AM »



I too, discussed this bill with Nix and there was nothing personal about this at all. I, as a rule don't involve myself with bills and subjects I know nothing about and don't understand, because I think it would be irresponsible to. I agree with hagrid that the best bills are those which are simple to understand and which everybody can comment on- not those you need an in depth knowledge to grapple with. That's why the subjects I've been most active on have been game reform issues (it doesn't help that this is basically the only area of the game where you can work out what the present statue is). Now that wasn't the case in the assembly, because almost all bills were simple to understand and dealt with broad concepts. Of course in real life it's important bills are detailed, but this is a game, and we shouldn't forget that.

I've been very reluctant to vote on this bill, because I didn't participate in the final vote, or any others, or the debate, but I sympathise very much with the president's position, for that reason I'm going to uphold the veto.


Nay


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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #178 on: August 16, 2013, 08:58:32 AM »

I will be casting my vote in the next 12 hours... It's going to be very hard.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #179 on: August 16, 2013, 12:43:08 PM »

There is a reason I avoided this thread like the plague. I talked with the president on this bill privately, and I'll just come right out and say that I was one of the ones who thought it was over-long and difficult to approach. There is a problem with inactivity lately. I am a huge part of that problem. But at some point down the line, we are going to need to stop to evaluate the "scope" of Atlasia. Hard work goes into bills like this one, sure—but some people just can't commit to tackling this type of monster. Same goes for a lot of these Nix bills too. When is it just too much? I miss the days when we were having ten-page debates on 200-word bills.

Anyhow, I'm getting off track. Nix brought up concerns about no one knowing what this particular bills does, and I'm kind of disappointed that we just got more novellas in response to his critique.

I will go through the bill and cast my vote based on the merits of the text. But I agree with the president... like the education bill, this thing has been daunting to approach.

What do you mean by "novellas" in response to his critique? It would have helped greatly to have heard that earlier then once the final vote was done. It would have also been advantageous for him to contact me so that we could have utilized the rewrite process as a means to return this bill back to debate. I did post a concise outline, which is now a page or two back because of this argurment. I had intended to post that prior to the final vote, but since no one mentioned or let me know there were issues with complexity, I decided not to.

The bottom line is that this, the blow up over the committees, were all the result of a reluctance to come forward and put the cards on the table. For all the accusations of me being intimidating, I think I can say without fear of contradication that I have never lost my temper to a legitimate complaint, unless it was undertaken in a manner that was just ridiculous or wasn't legitimate to begin with. I never doubted that he had a legitimate complaint, nor do I think this was personal. What I do think is that the President's approach has given the impression that he wasn't committed to this issue. I never said he wasn't, I said his actions make it look that way.

I am not desirous to know who contacted who and why. I don't mind that the President contacted you or vice versa. What I think we have a problem with is that we are too reluctant too communicate with each other until it is too late to work together and produce a workable compromise. We could have solved all these problems if everyone had just posted them in here or contacted me as well. I also worry that the way the President went about this will have the effect of causing people to be less willing to put in effort for fear it will come to nothing because others aren't willing to work, so why bother.

I understand that people are concerned about this text being monstrous and thus discouraging feedback, but one must see the other side and realize that be killing, it will have the effect of discouraging participation as well.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #180 on: August 16, 2013, 12:54:32 PM »
« Edited: August 17, 2013, 06:19:26 AM by Senator North Carolina Yankee »

@ Polnut and Hagrid -

This effort started with you guys, as well as Franzl and Afleitch, whom Duke and I contacted to inquiry as to how the systems in your countries worked. Both of you were disatisfied by the inability to relate much detail, but I must tell you that I found it enlightening to know that many of the same problems we have are global.

This issue is complex and this bill isn't perfect. It spends a good deal of cash (though very little immediately) to be true and as I said before, that is because of how in the past we put all the eggs in one basket and tried to treat everyone out paitent and then states and cities gutted the in-patient care to save money. We are 90% below where we should be in resources because of these actions over the decades, and if this bill looks bad cost wise, it is only about 40% of what is needed to fill that gap. This bill has a lot of wordiness, but a good deal of that in the section in question is necessary to establish the means to find a way to cover that other 60%, by partnering with regions and non-profits because we couldn't afford to do it all ourselves. It also contains language to recoup unspent funds, thereby further easing the budgetary impact.

The rest of it is procedural mechanics designed to acheive gains in research, improvement in systems and quality, tackle the stigimatization, reduces discintentives towards getting treatment and coordinating coverage with Fritzcare. All of these were the objectives I laid out in the beginning nad were backed up by outside research and data posted subsequently in the thread.

I have already had interest shown in working to improve this bill if passed, thus contradicting the President's statement that such would not be forthcoming. If you guys decide to vote for the override, then will be glad to work with you guys as well on improving components of this legislation, reducing costs and providing funding streams.

Edit: I accidentally said "We are at 90%" instead of "90% below where we were".
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #181 on: August 16, 2013, 01:01:31 PM »

Outline from previous page:

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I count 15.4 billion in the first year, a large pecentage of which will end up not being spent because of delays in implementation and so forth. Especially since you can can't spend seven billion dollars maintaining facilities that have not been built yet. That is returned to the general fund. So we are talking $5 to $6 billion over the course of the time between now and August 2014, ample time to amend the bill.
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Napoleon
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« Reply #182 on: August 16, 2013, 05:48:05 PM »

I hope Polnut and anyone else remaining votes Aye on this override. I know Senator Polnut in particular has a history of being a leader on mental health issues so I am surprised he is wavering. I know its hard to go against a president from your party guys but look at the facts. Mental illness is a leading cause of poverty. Mental illness brings much higher rates of homelessness, unemployment, dropout rates, divorce, substance abuse, and violent crime.

With a strong infrastructure and a small investment that this bill provides, we will strengthen our society and reenergize the war on poverty. I've been critical of the process that led to this bill, it took way too long to get to this point but starting from scratch would only be worse. This is a good bill that is not overly complex. Voting to uphold a veto would only be kicking the can down the road and turning your backs on millions of the most vulnerable Atlasians to make a political statement. That, I believe, is unacceptable.

Is this what we have become as a legislative body? A group of disinterested do-nothings? I hope not. Let's pass this andwe can make targeted adjustments as necessary if called for. But to do nothing is a waste of a great opportunity andwould truly be shameful.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #183 on: August 16, 2013, 09:06:06 PM »

It is because of my background and experience on this issue, as to why this is such a difficult vote.
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Napoleon
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« Reply #184 on: August 16, 2013, 09:51:42 PM »

It is because of my background and experience on this issue, as to why this is such a difficult vote.

What do you think the flaws are for this bill? I wish your concerns were voiced during the debate period. Yankee was basically talking to himself in this thread.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #185 on: August 16, 2013, 10:33:05 PM »

I really do encourage you all to support this bill. Is it perfect? No, but it is needed. The cost is huge, but we have not really updated our infrastructure in 70 years. Comparing this to the education bill is simply dishonest. These are two totally different matters entirely and cannot be handled in the same manner. One size does not fit all. This bill is huge, but it is not confusing and gets to the point on the many things that need addressing.

Mental illness is the leading cause of many things I think we all wish to reduce, not to mention is also leads to national tragedies.

I do wish the concerns were voiced while Yankee and I were working behind the scenes to research this bill, but that is neither here nor there, and I am not going to cry over the process. I simply would hate to see this voted down after months of work for the vague reasons given for the veto.

So, even though I am not a senator, irrelevant, and not even an office holder anymore, I urge both of you to vote to override this veto. If you do have any concerns you privately want to discuss, contact me.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #186 on: August 16, 2013, 11:27:38 PM »

I will be talking more to the president as soon as possible. I appreciate the time, effort and work that has gone into this. I think both that element, the intention of the Bill and considering the reasoning for the president's veto.

This Bill deserves that serious consideration, my original 'aye' was not an easy vote, and this is doubly as difficult. I was elected to make these calls, but I will be taking appropriate time to talk with those engaged and my constituents.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #187 on: August 17, 2013, 09:51:51 PM »

I have been working through this decision.

It has taken a long time, and I apologise for that. But because this issue matters a lot to me, it deserved as much time as it required until I was comfortable with the decision I have made.

I want to stress that I take seriously all of the arguments outlined by those in favour of this Bill and those against it. I acknowledge that my input in this thread has been limited, but I have outlined some of my concerns in private.

I was not interested in internal political games and posturing, I do not have any time, and let me repeat that, any time for political animus being a determining factor in such an important issue. My record on this issue stands.

Fundamentally, I believe this Bill is expensive, although the cost is worth it. This Bill creates a structure that I feel is too complex and too rigid. From my knowledge as a regional Governor and legislator, as well as president, flexibility is important.

I therefore have decided to vote nay on the override and support the president's decision to veto this Bill.

I want to commend the work undertaken by Senator Yankee and former Vice President Duke. Their diligence and commitment to this issue is unquestionable. However, that alone does not justify my supporting a Bill that I admit was a borderline vote in the first instance. I very much doubt that my concerns would have been dealt with in full.

I do not want this issue to go away, if interested, although I understand why they would resist this offer, I want to work with the Bill's advocates to re-build this Bill on the great research base developed by Senator Yankee and Duke. It deserves to be used and I stand ready to help. I am just disappointed that I was not in the Senate at the time this Bill was being developed.

And, knowing the nature of this place at this time, I stand ready for whatever personal or political consequences now face me for this decision. This issue matters too much for me to have a divisive Bill be presented to the people. I stand by my decision and I believe this was necessary and it was once of the most difficult decision I have made in my nearly seven years in Atlasian public life.

'ave at it.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #188 on: August 18, 2013, 09:35:14 AM »

Lets just let this die in peace. The whole process surrounding its failing is just tremendously disappointing, but unfortunately not at all surprising given our current political landscape. I cannot blame polnut too much because he was not in the senate, but the rest, well, whatever. I know the senate will not take up this bill again, so I hope the rest of you all will not make false promises to do so. It is a big issue, and frankly I have no faith in the senate as a whole these days, which is sad.

If I'm wrong, then I will be pleasantly surprised for once.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #189 on: August 18, 2013, 01:07:40 PM »

Bore, Polnut, TNF and Gass have voted no. That is enough to fail, Senators have 24 hours to change their votes.

I appreciate the consideration that Polnut has given to this decision, but I would prefer going forward, that rather then seeking to attach labels to a bill such as "rigid" or "lacking in flexibility", a case would be made for those criticism rather then just throwing them out there.

I don't see how either is the case as this provides tons of flexibility to the principle characters who would have to implement this. The SoIA working with the regions to form the partnerships, to augment those resources, and to ensure that maximum effect is driven is done with only the minimalist of standards meant to ensure that the money isn't waisted, that the quality is good and that people aren't being tortured in institutions, the very reason why there was a such a big push away from institutionalizing people in the 1950's and 1960's. I don't see how avoiding waste and protecting people from abuse and torture is "unnecessary rigidity".

I also have to take issue with the Senator's comment, "I understand why they would resist this offer". Senator, for four months both behind the scenes and then on the floor I have acted in good faith to make this work. "This is what I wantd to do", "this is why it has to be done" and "this is what I propose to do about them". I don't think that others can make that same claim about this issue and you can be damn sure, if mental health gets screwed in all this, it will not be because of lack of interest or effort on my part going forward.

I have already started on plan B and I am waiting impatiently. Tongue
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