Which of these two countries is more liveable?
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  Which of these two countries is more liveable?
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#1
Jesusland
 
#2
Aynrandland
 
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Author Topic: Which of these two countries is more liveable?  (Read 4390 times)
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exnaderite
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« on: May 04, 2013, 01:06:05 PM »
« edited: May 04, 2013, 03:04:20 PM by Judäischen Volksfront »

Note that in both these two countries, you're an average citizen (or subject, according to your perspective). So you can't change either of them. And while you're free to leave either country, that defeats the purpose. These two countries are twins separated at birth, like North or South Korea, or East and West Germany, so moving between them poses no problems aside from initial culture shock.

A bit of background: Jesusland and Aynrandland used to be one nation, with a single identity, somewhere in the middle of the two. There was a devastating war which resulted in the partition of that nation into two distinct entities. As a result of political circumstances, the elites of both countries built their respective national identities against the other one. The church in Jesusland, and the corporations in Aynrandland, accuse each other of being the only obstacle to reunification, and consequently, the media in both countries devote huge amounts of attention to each others' bad sides. While reunification remains a shared theoretical goal, the widening cultural gap is increasing its costs. However, the shared border remains open and both sides agree to keep it peaceful. The shared national church was, pre-division, an establishment institution similar to the state Protestant churches of northern Europe, or the Catholic Church in the Hispanic world. Post-division, the church in Jesusland amassed power, and lost power in Aynrandland.

Jesusland: It's a quasi theocracy where the established church (be it Catholic or Protestant, doesn't matter too much) holds considerable sway, considerable being an understatement. While there are free elections and free press, this is within limits and people are careful not to do anything which offends the powers that be (a recent visit by Richard Dawkins caused a riot by an angry mob stirred up by the church, and the domestic organizers received death threats). The country's politicians and the church clergy have each others on their speed dials. 99% of the population is at least nominally on the parish rolls, and 90% of the population is in church on Sundays.

As you might expect, the social environment is very conservative. Gay marriage is banned and sodomy attracts a heavy fine, though the social stigma is even greater. Abortion is almost entirely banned, and women who leave the country to evade it face prosecution on their return (many women have had their legs pried open by customs officials at airports and border crossings). Marriage can only be ended by death or annulment. All porn is banned, as are all R-rated movies and M-rated video games. Everything, apart from churches and some corner stores, is closed on Sundays. All sex outside marriage is illegal and church clergy occasionally stir up canned outrage, though its teens are just as promiscuous as anywhere. There are few work opportunities for women after marriage, aside from teaching, nursing, etc. Christian education is mandatory in schools, though at least evolution doesn't attract controversy.

On the other hand, Jesusland has a rich welfare state, justified by the church as part of the Gospel. All health care is free, as is all education. There are lavish social benefits, particularly those aimed at encouraging women to raise children at home. It's also open to immigrants, provided they accept the church's strict conservative values. The Jesusland Revenue Agency zealously cracks down on tax loopholes and tax havens, and unsurprisingly, income taxes and sales taxes are at Scandinavian levels. The air and water is pristine due to similarly zealous enforcement of environmental regulations. Jesusland's economy is robust despite these regulations, in large part thanks to the high-quality infrastructure and the world-class education system. Jesusland is renowned for providing humanitarian aid and peacekeepers abroad, though its diplomats abroad sometimes come across as pretentious or obnoxious. The wealth disparity is so low that flaunting something from Hermes will attract unpleasant glares. The church takes the "blessed are the poor" part seriously.

Aynrandland: Instead of the church holding power, it's the Fortune 500 who do. There are also free elections and free press, though political parties and candidates who aren't funded by a corporation have a hard time winning anything higher than city council. The press is completely owned by these corporations, and not even the Internet can break this power: the ISPs routinely censor blogs and webpages which criticize the existing order. Politicians openly brag about their loyalty to their corporation. All this is legal, since the state regulates virtually nothing.

No Medicare, Medicaid, or anything like that exists; all health care is private. Public schools exist only up to middle school, and even then are quite rudimentary; every parent who hopes their child will be more than a low wage worker uses a private school. There are no social benefits at all, and of course no minimum wages or mandatory overtime wages. Everything is privatized, even the post service, water supply, and roads. A lack of environmental regulations means raw sewerage and chemical waste is openly dumped into lakes and rivers, and it's nearly impossible to successfully sue a corporation (on the contrary, corporations routinely sue their critics into bankruptcy using "defamation" as a charge). Tobacco companies do a brisk business selling to six year olds, claiming it's their parent's responsibility. The few taxes that exist are regressive, and cartels proliferate in every sector of the economy. The wealth disparity is legendary, and private security guards have sub-machine guns to protect their paymasters. Aynrandland's diplomats abroad, like everything else, are at the service of its corporations, for instance lobbying against new regulations in other countries which harm its corporations.

The sheer ownership of Aynrandland by the Fortune 500, and the sheer smallness of the state, means that sex, abortion, and other wedge issues don't exist. No restrictions on violent or obscene media exist, either. Marriage exists only in terms of civil contracts (and even then the wealthier party can bribe their way into enforcement). Few people pay too much attention to religion, and since the church is not politically powerful, it's the one voice in the country which isn't owned by corporations. Even then, church pastors who are too loud, who refuse to be bribed, or who know too much, risk getting into accidents.
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Supersonic
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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2013, 01:10:41 PM »

Aynrandland as homosexuality is essentially illegal in Jesusland.

Not that I would ever opt for Jesusland anyway.
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Oak Hills
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« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2013, 01:24:01 PM »

Easily Jesusland.
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Blue3
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« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2013, 01:49:43 PM »
« Edited: May 04, 2013, 01:59:22 PM by Starwatcher »

Jesusland, unfortunately. If only it was one of those Christian denominations that accepted gay marriage and tolerated premarital sex/divorce/porn. Also, it sounds like Jesusland, being so educated and having such great living standards, would eventually become secular after a few generations.

Aynrandland sounds like I'd get cancer within a week, and me and any children would condemned as poor workers forever (especially without public education). Though would Ayn Rand and other "libertarians" really approve of corporations censoring the Internet?

It's funny, because when I first saw the 2 countries' names, I thought I'd lean more towards Aynrandland, but after reading the descriptions it's more Jesusland. Though both would be oppressive places to live in.
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Vosem
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« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2013, 01:53:10 PM »

For specifically me, as a member of a religious minority which would probably be repressed in Jesusland, probably Aynrandland; at least there I'm as bad off as everyone else. It's more difficult to judge (would need more detail) what it would be like to a member of the dominant ethnicity, which is presumably the same in both countries. From your description for someone of this ethnicity Jesusland sounds better, but only as a 'lesser of two very evils' type choice and more details are necessary.

Aynrandland sounds like I'd get cancer within a week, and me and any children would condemned as poor workers forever (especially without public education). Though would Ayn Rand and other "libertarians" really approve of corporations censoring the Internet?

His description of the environmental situation in Aynrandland reminded me to a great extent of Soviet environmental policy, ironically enough. I would agree that it doesn't sound like a state Ayn Rand would approve of -- calling it 'Corporateland' or 'Fordland' sounds more accurate.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2013, 02:13:49 PM »

Jesusland is very close to my idea of an ideal state.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2013, 02:15:07 PM »

For specifically me, as a member of a religious minority which would probably be repressed in Jesusland, probably Aynrandland; at least there I'm as bad off as everyone else. It's more difficult to judge (would need more detail) what it would be like to a member of the dominant ethnicity, which is presumably the same in both countries. From your description for someone of this ethnicity Jesusland sounds better, but only as a 'lesser of two very evils' type choice and more details are necessary.

In Jesusland it might depend what sort of Christians are in power. A fairly large portion of evangelicals are massive fans of Israel and the Jews for example.
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politicus
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« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2013, 02:23:26 PM »


Agreed.
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opebo
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« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2013, 02:26:11 PM »

Jesusland is very close to my idea of an ideal state.

Saudi Arabia!  Seriously dude, you can move there.  There are loads of teaching jobs there.
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Nathan
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« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2013, 02:30:04 PM »

Jesusland is obviously, and unfortunately, preferable, but the church in Aynrandland almost certainly lives out the Gospel better than the one in Jesusland, precisely because it's marginalized and occasionally persecuted. (Then again the same I imagine is true of minority religions and denominations in Jesusland.)
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Goldwater
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« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2013, 03:45:52 PM »

Aynrandland, by far.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2013, 03:56:17 PM »
« Edited: May 04, 2013, 03:58:18 PM by Californian Tony »

Jesusland would be a socially backwards country full of narrow-minded, intolerant people, and no doubt that many will suffer under it. But most would get by, and though their lives would be dull and oppressing, they would be livable.

Anyrandland, on the other hand, perfectly fits the description of hell. No such society could possibly remain sustainable more than a few decades. It would either collapse under a massive revolution or just self-annihilate. Anyone who chooses it has his values seriously f**ked up.
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Donerail
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« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2013, 06:10:02 PM »

Hmm... since I'm not a gay, woman, or non-Christian, probably Jesusland.
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HoosierPoliticalJunkie
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« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2013, 08:59:53 PM »

Probably Jesusland.  While I'm socially liberal overall, I do believe we need moral standards or society will have problems.

If I was purely thinking in my own self interest, Aynrandville.  I think I'd stack up fairly well on the income ladder due to my strong math skills(which is apparently one of the biggest predictors of financial success), but other people would be screwed.  Also, the lack of moral standards would be OK with me, but I think that if we let things be too freewheeling, society could become too decadent and self-destruct.  It might be OK though as it's never truly been tried. 

I would be a littlebored in Jesusland, however, as I do enjoy my South Park, Simpsons, and Family Guy, which might be banned (South Park for sure) in Jesusland. 
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John Dibble
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« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2013, 10:58:15 PM »

They're both dystopian s**tholes.

Jesusland is better if you're male and willing to keep your head down and be an obedient sheep so you can prosper economically. If you're a woman you are essentially relegated to being a cow for breeding, so I guess that depends on what you want as a woman. If you're openly atheist you're likely to be killed by a mob. (I will note that the notion that they'd riot over Dawkins but there not be any controversy over evolution in the education system seems odd - being anti-creationist is a big part of his spiel)

Aynrandland is better if you want to live freely and not have to worry about being killed by an angry mob, but the pollution and economic disparity are problematic. The censorship on the internet is done by ISPs, so this could partially be solved by being enterprising and starting your own ISP (as an average citizen you could work with others on this - crowd sourcing for funding could work) that doesn't censor content and use this as your selling point. Other problems wouldn't be so easily solved though, and the country itself probably wouldn't last long. I'd expect something akin to the French Revolution to occur eventually. If not, maybe I'd make a small fortune smuggling contraband into Jesusland.
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« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2013, 12:44:49 AM »

Jesusland seems pretty good.

Also a lot of room for entrepreneuring policy wonks with proposals on how to streamline government programs.
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politicallefty
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« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2013, 04:52:15 AM »

Ugh. Either seems quite nightmarish, but I ended up voting for Jesusland (despite my strong socially liberal stances). It might depend on the particular denomination though. If it's something like the Southern Baptist Convention, then I don't know (as I could see that moving into something similar to Sharia law countries). If it was something like the Catholic Church, at least there would be no death penalty.
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Hatman 🍁
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« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2013, 12:53:19 PM »

Jesusland. It's pretty bad, but I'm not gay nor a woman, and it's economic policies are actually ideal.
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RI
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« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2013, 01:09:46 PM »

While I'm not a fan of the restrictive gender roles and the banning of r-rated movies, Jesusland is close to ideal.
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TNF
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« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2013, 01:58:30 PM »

Both are terrible and should very likely be wiped off the face of this imaginary Earth, assuming democracy is impossible to implement in either.
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The world will shine with light in our nightmare
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« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2013, 02:14:54 PM »

Jesusland. It's pretty bad, but I'm not gay nor a woman, and it's economic policies are actually ideal.
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Grumpier Than Thou
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« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2013, 02:38:12 PM »

Jesusland is very close to my idea of an ideal state.

Very disturbing thing to say.

Jesusland, though.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2013, 02:58:52 PM »

Jesusland is very close to my idea of an ideal state.

Very disturbing thing to say.

Jesusland, though.

But not surprising as I'm easily one of the most socially conservative posters on this forum.
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DemPGH
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« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2013, 03:33:31 PM »
« Edited: May 06, 2013, 03:58:49 PM by DemPGH, Atty. Gen. »

Ha, that's some seriously dystopian stuff. In Jesusland I'd become a lone wolf type like what Mel Gibson typically plays - a secular Mel Gibson. In Aynrandland I could at least function and work for progressive reforms, and I view unchecked capitalism as less malevolent than unchecked religion.

But posters are right who say both would collapse, and when Aynrandland collapsed it would probably be far uglier. When Jesusland collapsed it would be like the 16th century collapsing - a welcome breath of fresh air. But I can't make my decision based on a potential collapse.

Flip a coin. Aynrandland.
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politicus
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« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2013, 05:21:04 PM »

I view unchecked capitalism as less malevolent than unchecked religion.


How come?
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