Moderate Hero

[Antonio the Sixth]

Fareed Zakaria and Jon Stewart strike me as moderate heroes.

Stewart is a special kind of moderate hero; the one whose views are actually pretty extreme but likes to use rhetorical moderate heroism to sound "reasonable".

I really don't know how you can say that. I see the part of his rhetoric which might slightly annoy some leftists, but when you hear his critique of the GOP/Conservatives, they aren't in any way phrased in a way that sounds moderate-heroish. What Stewart is actually doing is proving that, in the modern US, being a Liberal is the only reasonable option.

[Lurker]

The best example is probably the late David Broder (Washington Post). Surprised nobody has mentioned that guy yet - and I challenge you to find a bigger Moderate Hero than him.

You're right. Krugman even used the term "Broderism" in his book The Conscience of a Liberal with a meaning roughly equivalent to that of "moderate heroism" here.

In 2007 Broder made this hilariously moderate hero statement:

I have to disagree [that the country supports the Democratic/Liberal agenda]. I think the country is closely balanced, with a controlling group in the center that rejects extreme positions and seeks practical solutions drawn from the agendas of both liberals and conservatives. Most Americans I meet are not ideologues of any sort; they are practical people seeking practical solutions to real challenges.

[Lief 🗽]

The best example is probably the late David Broder (Washington Post). Surprised nobody has mentioned that guy yet - and I challenge you to find a bigger Moderate Hero than him.

You're right. Krugman even used the term "Broderism" in his book The Conscience of a Liberal with a meaning roughly equivalent to that of "moderate heroism" here.

In 2007 Broder made this hilariously moderate hero statement:

I have to disagree [that the country supports the Democratic/Liberal agenda]. I think the country is closely balanced, with a controlling group in the center that rejects extreme positions and seeks practical solutions drawn from the agendas of both liberals and conservatives. Most Americans I meet are not ideologues of any sort; they are practical people seeking practical solutions to real challenges.

Sounds like Thomas Friedman... (who is also horrible).

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

[Antonio the Sixth]

How could we possibly make a strawman by using a term which was invented on the Atlas Forum to describe exactly this kind of characters?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

How could we possibly make a strawman by using a term which was invented on the Atlas Forum to describe exactly this kind of characters?

I have full confidence in the ability of the Atlas Forum to invent all sorts of strawmen characters.

[Kitteh]

Um, you did see all the examples that people posted here, right?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Um, you did see all the examples that people posted here, right?

you mean the ones where it's considered illogical for people to try to balance more than one competing political value?   yeah.  what are they supposed to show other than that some people can't get deal with any non-absolute position?

Let's go with the food stamp position.  If spending $20 billion on food stamps is such a great idea, then it must be a great idea to spend $2 trillion on food stamps, right?  wouldn't want to be a moderate hero, after all.

[morgieb]

One that feels that it is better to split down the middle and have their cake and eat it too.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I've never been a "moderate", but it's perfectly legitimate political position.

"Moderate hero", on the other hand, doesn't really have athentic positions. It's all for show, like: "rah, rah, look how sensible, unextreme I am. Common sense 4 eva!"

/Captain Obvious 

[Torie]

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Well I guess I have some moderate hero tendencies on abortion. It seems to me reasonable to put late term abortions where the fetus has sentience and brain waves, and looks human, in a different legal box from early term abortions where none of that obtains. Ditto parents having some role/notice vis a vis minors having an abortion, although that involves a balancing test where the focus needs to be on what is in the best interests of the minor overall, and avoiding the kid being subject to parental abuse in some way.

Balancing tests are a beautiful thing, and I wish more time was spent on parsing them in the public square.

[Sbane]

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Well I guess I have some moderate hero tendencies on abortion. It seems to me reasonable to put late term abortions where the fetus has sentience and brain waves, and looks human, in a different legal box from early term abortions where none of that obtains. Ditto parents having some role/notice vis a vis minors having an abortion, although that involves a balancing test where the focus needs to be on what is in the best interests of the minor overall, and avoiding the kid being subject to parental abuse in some way.

Balancing tests are a beautiful thing, and I wish more time was spent on parsing them in the public square.

This is not a moderate hero view because it is actually based on reason and not on an overwheming desire to look moderate and reasonable. I mean, you don't like the cute, fuzzy teachers and firefighters. No way in hell you are a moderate hero. Benconstine would never hold extreme views like that!

[Paul Kemp]

I think a lot of complaints about 'moderate heroism' come from a discomfort towards people without a dominant philosophy, or those who have flexibility within that. Rigid adherence to an ideology or a philosophy (often with little more thought) is just as big a problem to me.

But I do think people who 'strive' for moderatation as a badge of honour, as opposed to having positions based on knowledge and experience (rather than dogma) are problematic.

I've been called a moderate hero. No, I'm not. I don't seek out attention by having what are seen as inconsistent positions by purists. I just happen to have come to conclusions that aren't pure.

This pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Stewart's not really a Moderate Hero, he's basically a social liberal (by the European definition, by the American definition too of course but that's not a good ideological description.) It's just that the modern day GOP first with Bush neoconservatives and now with the Tea Party crazies are completely at odds with him so he can come across as quite partisan and to idiots extreme. But in most countries he'd be mocking the left and the right equally. Well in most European countries he'd probably just mock the type of unreformed communists or 60s/70s style socialists and if he ever made fun of center-left social democratic parties it'd probably be for being incompetent rather than ideology like with the Democrats now.

[MaxQue]

Stewart's not really a Moderate Hero, he's basically a social liberal (by the European definition, by the American definition too of course but that's not a good ideological description.) It's just that the modern day GOP first with Bush neoconservatives and now with the Tea Party crazies are completely at odds with him so he can come across as quite partisan and to idiots extreme. But in most countries he'd be mocking the left and the right equally. Well in most European countries he'd probably just mock the type of unreformed communists or 60s/70s style socialists and if he ever made fun of center-left social democratic parties it'd probably be for being incompetent rather than ideology like with the Democrats now.

You can't mock off current European center-left on ideology, they have none, they lose it as soon they get power.

[Benj]

Um, you did see all the examples that people posted here, right?

you mean the ones where it's considered illogical for people to try to balance more than one competing political value?   yeah.  what are they supposed to show other than that some people can't get deal with any non-absolute position?

Let's go with the food stamp position.  If spending $20 billion on food stamps is such a great idea, then it must be a great idea to spend $2 trillion on food stamps, right?  wouldn't want to be a moderate hero, after all.

Sounds like you're making a straw man yourself.

[Supersonic]

I've never been a "moderate", but it's perfectly legitimate political position.

"Moderate hero", on the other hand, doesn't really have athentic positions. It's all for show, like: "rah, rah, look how sensible, unextreme I am. Common sense 4 eva!"

/Captain Obvious 

This pretty much sums up my view.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Um, you did see all the examples that people posted here, right?

you mean the ones where it's considered illogical for people to try to balance more than one competing political value?   yeah.  what are they supposed to show other than that some people can't get deal with any non-absolute position?

Let's go with the food stamp position.  If spending $20 billion on food stamps is such a great idea, then it must be a great idea to spend $2 trillion on food stamps, right?  wouldn't want to be a moderate hero, after all.

Sounds like you're making a straw man yourself.

no, merely extending the logic.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Um, you did see all the examples that people posted here, right?

you mean the ones where it's considered illogical for people to try to balance more than one competing political value?   yeah.  what are they supposed to show other than that some people can't get deal with any non-absolute position?

Let's go with the food stamp position.  If spending $20 billion on food stamps is such a great idea, then it must be a great idea to spend $2 trillion on food stamps, right?  wouldn't want to be a moderate hero, after all.

Sounds like you're making a straw man yourself.

no, merely extending the logic.

There are diminishing returns at some point and an argument over how much is reasonable to spend at one time.. at a certain point. There's a difference between ten billion dollars on food stamps and ten trillion dollars, that's an obvious amount where it becomes completely absurd, but arguing over 15 billion in food stamps and 20 billion in food stamps, particularly as a condition of support for an overall package, is arguing over pennies and not for any real discernible reason.

Someone is making strawmen here, it's not us. It's someone who seems to assume there are no selfish, attention-seeking, greedy, or shortsighted motives among any of our lawmakers, ever.

We're basically arguing about Olympia Snowe at this point, and Linus said it better than I ever could, speaking to how illogical her positions seem to be:

Well, obviously could be worse, but basically HP.

The thing is, they don't really have a coherent viewpoint, except they'll vote for anything if you cut around a couple of hundred million from what gets originally proposed. Bush's initial massive tax cuts after taking office? No good. Bush's still quite massive but a bit smaller tax cuts? Fine!

Obama's massive amounts of stimulus in 2009? Terrible - deficit here we come, etc. Obama's still pretty massive amounts of stimulus with $100 chopped off by Snowe? Great!

Really, though, there's no coherent ideology that says "the policies of the current president, except somewhat cheaper, are always good, even when one of them is a radical supply-sider and another is a liberal Democrat". If you're proposing legislation from the White House's end, you should be able to basically game this system by initially overbidding by $100 million.

Emphasis on "there is no coherent ideology... [consisting of these things]." That's the issue here, ideological or simple logical consistency of any sort.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Someone is making strawmen here, it's not us. It's someone who seems to assume there are no selfish, attention-seeking, greedy, or shortsighted motives among any of our lawmakers, ever.

I generally assume lawmakers are being shortsighted in the absence of evidence to the contrary.  What I don't do is hold to some convenient presumption that one's political opponents are in it for the evulz.

[Marokai Backbeat]

And nor do I.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

And nor do I.

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wow.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Seriously, do you want to participate in any sort of discussion or are you just here to fellate yourself over how reasonable and super awesome you are? Because so far you've basically just dodged any attempt to actually engage you on the topic of this thread and instead preferred to say "lol strawman" and other variations of such.

Step up or shut up.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Seriously, do you want to participate in any sort of discussion or are you just here to fellate yourself over how reasonable and super awesome you are? Because so far you've basically just dodged any attempt to actually engage you on the topic of this thread and instead preferred to say "lol strawman" and other variations of such.

Step up or shut up.

   


yes, that's right I'm just sabotaging the conversation, because neener neener neener.   

[Marokai Backbeat]