UK General Election - May 7th 2015
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You kip if you want to...
change08
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #275 on: July 24, 2014, 07:05:08 PM »

With "BigBrother" (=D.M.) a LAB-victory were inevitable.

It wouldn't. David would never have won over former LibDems like Ed's been able to, the Greens would've become a massive problem for us in the same way UKIP has for the Tories.
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Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese
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« Reply #276 on: July 24, 2014, 07:48:21 PM »

With "BigBrother" (=D.M.) a LAB-victory were inevitable.

Ed is a rather unimpressive leader, I don't think anyone is disputing that, but the only thing were David is actually better than Ed, is that he doesn't have an annoying lisp.

Sure David is everything a dream politician should be, young, serious, experienced, but he's so incredibly cold and stiff. He lacks the quality that every successful politician poses, personality. I mean at least you know there is a human being behind Ed Miliband. With the brother... I'm not so sure.

And had he been leader I'm sure people would hang around here complaining over how much of a better leader Ed would have been.    
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #277 on: July 24, 2014, 08:10:26 PM »


Please. Don't remind us of the injustice.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #278 on: July 24, 2014, 08:11:30 PM »

The best evidence that David Miliband would have been a poor leader is the fact that he failed to win the leadership.
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MaxQue
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« Reply #279 on: July 24, 2014, 09:48:02 PM »

RedEd has disappointed me, for example, by overseeing to rename the outdated label "Labour" into "Progressives" or "Democrats". And with 100% I knew 2010, that the LDs in coalition would be halved, but with 70% I expected its left wing to depart from Liberals&coalition - also a missed chance!

Is that a joke?
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politicus
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« Reply #280 on: July 24, 2014, 10:14:19 PM »

SD parties just don't change their names, as former Norwegian Labour PM Jens Stoltenberg said when a journalist from Aftenposten (The Evening Post) asked him if the name wasn't outdated and ought to be changed now that only a minority of its voters where workers:

"The Labour Party is called the Labour Party, just as Aftenposten is called Aftenposten, even if its published in the morning".

"New" Labour was bad enough. Progressives in a European context would be awful. European parties that call themselves something with Progress or Progressives are generally reactionaries and/or corrupt.
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King of Kensington
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« Reply #281 on: July 24, 2014, 10:24:04 PM »

In Canada, there was a laughably silly attempt in the social democratic New Democratic Party to exploit Obama's popularity in Canada and drop the "New" from the party name.  Fortunately that idea failed.
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YL
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« Reply #282 on: July 25, 2014, 01:44:59 AM »

RedEd has disappointed me, for example, by overseeing to rename the outdated label "Labour" into "Progressives" or "Democrats". And with 100% I knew 2010, that the LDs in coalition would be halved, but with 70% I expected its left wing to depart from Liberals&coalition - also a missed chance!

I admit I'm risking projecting my own views onto a larger group, but I don't think David Miliband would have been better at attracting left-wing LDs than Ed.  One of the big reasons Labour was unattractive to such people (not the only one, mind) was foreign policy (Iraq in particular) and it would have been harder for David M to look like a clean break there.

And yes, changing the name was never going to happen.  "Progressives" was actually a name used by anti-Labour parties in local elections in many places (in Sheffield from the early 30s to the early 50s).  "Democrats" just sounds wishy-washy; the LDs actually used it briefly after the 1988 merger and abandoned it fairly quickly.
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Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese
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« Reply #283 on: July 25, 2014, 01:48:32 AM »

RedEd has disappointed me, for example, by overseeing to rename the outdated label "Labour" into "Progressives" or "Democrats". And with 100% I knew 2010, that the LDs in coalition would be halved, but with 70% I expected its left wing to depart from Liberals&coalition - also a missed chance!

Really? Your biggest beef with Ed is that he didn't throw out a well established brand name for some flashy new flavour of the month? Are? You? For? Real?

I'm not one to give voters as a group credit especially often, but no voter is actually deluded enough to base their vote on whether a party is named Labour, or Progressive. The day anyone actually does that is the day we should abolish democratic elections and return to dictatorships.

SD parties just don't change their names
   

It's not just Social Democratic parties. Lets not forget that your major centre-right party is still called "The Left" and your centrist party "The Radical Left". Wink
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afleitch
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« Reply #284 on: July 25, 2014, 06:39:06 AM »

The best evidence that David Miliband would have been a poor leader is the fact that he failed to win the leadership.

Well he sort of did. In any other system he would have Wink
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CrabCake
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« Reply #285 on: July 25, 2014, 07:35:46 AM »
« Edited: July 25, 2014, 11:49:59 AM by CrabCake »

It's not my biggest problem with him, I just mentioned it ex grege.
But "Labour" is old-fashioned and fits now better to the blue-collarish BNP.
"Progressives" is exactly the counterpart to "Conservatives" and means exactly that the LEFT stands for (20.century WhiteWorkingClass, now Immigrants/CivilServants/Students/UnEmployed/NonWorkers/...).

True, Labour has lost a certain amount of appeal for the white collar classes. But not to the extent of such widespread and irreversible collapse that a name change would be useful - if they change their name it'll just be a " you" to the base; with not much conceivable benefit.

The only name change in European politics that might help electorally is the French Socialists to Social Democrats (like Valls wants) and PASOK to ... anything really.

I'm pretty sure that a Labour solely focused on those groups would be pretty marginal, especially if named the tarred label of "Progressive".
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ChrisDR68
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« Reply #286 on: July 25, 2014, 09:20:10 AM »

SD parties just don't change their names, as former Norwegian Labour PM Jens Stoltenberg said when a journalist from Aftenposten (The Evening Post) asked him if the name wasn't outdated and ought to be changed now that only a minority of its voters where workers:

"The Labour Party is called the Labour Party, just as Aftenposten is called Aftenposten, even if its published in the morning".

"New" Labour was bad enough. Progressives in a European context would be awful. European parties that call themselves something with Progress or Progressives are generally reactionaries and/or corrupt.

In a way I agree with you but I also think the name Labour Party is outdated.

It conjures up an image of thousands of manual workers streaming out of the factories at the same time after they'd clocked off after a day's work (with lots of smokestack chimneys in the background belching out thick black smoke).

Oh and don't forget everyone wearing a flat cap and talking in a broad regional accent...

The Labour Party was formed in 1900 to represent the industrial working class but they are now only a tiny proportion of today's workforce.

The obvious alternative name was unfortunately used by a certain gang of four in 1981. Another reason to remember the "Limehouse Declaration" in a negative light.

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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #287 on: July 25, 2014, 10:15:30 AM »

Labour's name is considerably less ironic than certain other parties bearing that name. Take a ferry across the Irish Sea for details.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #288 on: July 25, 2014, 10:26:03 AM »
« Edited: July 25, 2014, 10:38:05 AM by Sibboleth Bist »

The Labour Party was formed in 1900 to represent the industrial working class but they are now only a tiny proportion of today's workforce.

Strictly speaking it was formed to give Trade Unions and their members representation in parliament that was independent of the Liberal Party. Right from the beginning Labour always polled well with some groups of workers outside heavy manual jobs.

Anyway, the nature of class in the UK means that while not many people are employed in stereotypical industrial occupations, the class identities created by them have not gone away. The main electoral effect of deindustrialisation has been lower turnouts (which is partly a consequence of lower TU membership) and higher swings, rather than a dissolution of the old patterns.

In any case, the name is an important one that a lot of people are very loyal to.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #289 on: July 25, 2014, 10:29:47 AM »

now Immigrants/CivilServants/Students/UnEmployed/NonWorkers/...)

Only the second of those groups (and parts of the first) vote in large numbers, and they don't vote as a group.
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Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese
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« Reply #290 on: July 25, 2014, 11:13:30 AM »
« Edited: July 25, 2014, 11:18:18 AM by Swedish Cheese »

The Labour Party won 43,2% of the popular vote, and 418 of the parliamentary seats, as recently as 1997. I seriously doubt most of their voters then were old blue-collar factory workers or miners.

I know that in this day an age people think that winning elections is all about new imaginative campaign slogans and flashy websites... but no one really cares about that. People will vote for Labour if they agree with their policies, think they have a competent leadership, and hate the Tories. Calling them the Progressive Party, or the Blueberry Party, or We-Hate-The-Tory-Party Party, would make zero, zilch, nada difference. None what so ever! If any affect, it would be confusing a few pensioners who'd be wondering what happened to the party they were planning to vote for.

Sigh, there are few things that annoy me quite as much as changing things that that work just for the sake of change with-out reflection on wether the change is actually for the better. As if change in itself is suppose to have some sort self-worth. Roll Eyes


RedEd has disappointed me, for example, by overseeing to rename the outdated label "Labour" into "Progressives" or "Democrats". And with 100% I knew 2010, that the LDs in coalition would be halved, but with 70% I expected its left wing to depart from Liberals&coalition - also a missed chance!

Really? Your biggest beef with Ed is that he didn't throw out a well established brand name for some flashy new flavour of the month?

It's not my biggest problem with him, I just mentioned it ex grege.
But "Labour" is old-fashioned and fits now better to the blue-collarish BNP.
"Progressives" is exactly the counterpart to "Conservatives" and means exactly that the LEFT stands for (20.century WhiteWorkingClass, now Immigrants/CivilServants/Students/UnEmployed/NonWorkers/...).
     

Also, please, I ask politely of you... if you're gonna continue using weak arguments, and say things such as "Labour fits better for the BNP" and thereby implying, rather offensively, that most blue-collar workers are racist, I would kindly ask you to learn how to quote properly, so that it doesn't look as if it were I, or anyone else, who wrote it. Now that would be progressive. Thank you. 
 
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You kip if you want to...
change08
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« Reply #291 on: July 25, 2014, 01:18:51 PM »
« Edited: July 25, 2014, 01:29:55 PM by You kip if you want to... »

The Liberals have changed their name countless times (each one as wishy-washy as the last) and it's never done them much good.

And anyway, it's Ed who's on course to be PM this time next year leading a Labour Party government, no matter the name.

And on David, the fact he and his backers spent 3 years sniping at his own brother from behind-the-scenes and then ran away and threw his dummy out the pram rather than use his considerable political skills (yes, he's a good politicians, of course) to help get his brother elected PM just shows that he'd never have the temperament to make an effective leader.

The biggest electoral story of this parliament (in my opinion) has been the collapse of the LibDems and a massive chunk of their voters becoming as rusted onto the Labour base as anyone who'd voted Labour their whole life. David would simply not have been able to achieve this, these people would've ended up trotting off to the Greens. David's brand of Blairism, while attactive to many, would've been absolutely toxic to these left-liberals and would've driven even more 'old' Labour voters to UKIP than Ed has.

As Cameron has proved, you need to do more than look good on TV in order to win an election or be a popular leader.
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EPG
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« Reply #292 on: July 25, 2014, 01:52:07 PM »

As long as the unions pay for it, it may as well be called Labour.

David would probably have done better than his brother among 2010 Conservative voters. To neglect the traditional two-party swing pool, in favour of focusing on the approximately 6pp gain from Lib Dems, is convenient for the current Labour leadership. And of course rubbing it in the Lib Dems' noses will always be popular among the grassroots.
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Lurker
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« Reply #293 on: July 25, 2014, 04:24:33 PM »
« Edited: July 25, 2014, 04:28:27 PM by Lurker »

SD parties just don't change their names, as former Norwegian Labour PM Jens Stoltenberg said when a journalist from Aftenposten (The Evening Post) asked him if the name wasn't outdated and ought to be changed now that only a minority of its voters where workers:

"The Labour Party is called the Labour Party, just as Aftenposten is called Aftenposten, even if its published in the morning".

Though our Labour Party did change its name, as recently as 2011. Wink

(They switched the official name from Det norske Arbeiderparti to Arbeiderpartiet, which is what everyone had been using colloquially for a very long time anyway. So not exactly a dramatic change)
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DL
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« Reply #294 on: July 25, 2014, 05:01:09 PM »

Didn't the Centre Party in Sweden used to be called the Agrarian party or the Farmer's party or something like that? i know that the Moderate Party in Sweden used to be called the Right Party.


I know that in this day an age people think that winning elections is all about new imaginative campaign slogans and flashy websites... but no one really cares about that. People will vote for Labour if they agree with their policies, think they have a competent leadership, and hate the Tories. Calling them the Progressive Party, or the Blueberry Party, or We-Hate-The-Tory-Party Party, would make zero, zilch, nada difference. None what so ever! If any affect, it would be confusing a few pensioners who'd be wondering what happened to the party they were planning to vote for.



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politicus
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« Reply #295 on: July 25, 2014, 05:30:58 PM »

Didn't the Centre Party in Sweden used to be called the Agrarian party or the Farmer's party or something like that? i know that the Moderate Party in Sweden used to be called the Right Party.


I know that in this day an age people think that winning elections is all about new imaginative campaign slogans and flashy websites... but no one really cares about that. People will vote for Labour if they agree with their policies, think they have a competent leadership, and hate the Tories. Calling them the Progressive Party, or the Blueberry Party, or We-Hate-The-Tory-Party Party, would make zero, zilch, nada difference. None what so ever! If any affect, it would be confusing a few pensioners who'd be wondering what happened to the party they were planning to vote for.


Yeah, its a bit ironic this comment was made by a Swedish poster, since all their three historical centre-right parties have changed their names (from ideological or occupational names to wishy-washy names like centre, moderates and peoples party).

Generally centre-right parties are more likely to change their names completely than SDs.
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Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese
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« Reply #296 on: July 25, 2014, 06:38:44 PM »

Didn't the Centre Party in Sweden used to be called the Agrarian party or the Farmer's party or something like that? i know that the Moderate Party in Sweden used to be called the Right Party.


I know that in this day an age people think that winning elections is all about new imaginative campaign slogans and flashy websites... but no one really cares about that. People will vote for Labour if they agree with their policies, think they have a competent leadership, and hate the Tories. Calling them the Progressive Party, or the Blueberry Party, or We-Hate-The-Tory-Party Party, would make zero, zilch, nada difference. None what so ever! If any affect, it would be confusing a few pensioners who'd be wondering what happened to the party they were planning to vote for.


Yeah, its a bit ironic this comment was made by a Swedish poster, since all their three historical centre-right parties have changed their names (from ideological or occupational names to wishy-washy names like centre, moderates and peoples party).

Generally centre-right parties are more likely to change their names completely than SDs.

The People's Party have been called the People's Party since it's foundation in 1934 when it's two predecessors merged, and one of those predecessors were called the People's Party even before that, so I'm not sure where Politicus gets the idea that they've changed their name from.

But the two of you remember correctly about C and M of course. They both changed their names in the 60's. The Farmer League becoming The Centre Party was arguably a rare case of a good name change.

As for The Right becoming the Moderates, that if anything just proves my point. That name change happened so that the party would seem more centrist and inclusive, and it didn't work a single bit. The name change didn't change people's perception of them, instead it changed the meaning of the word Moderate in Swedish to mean centre-right instead of its original meaning.       
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politicus
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« Reply #297 on: July 25, 2014, 07:20:34 PM »
« Edited: July 25, 2014, 07:24:58 PM by politicus »


The People's Party have been called the People's Party since it's foundation in 1934 when it's two predecessors merged, and one of those predecessors were called the People's Party even before that, so I'm not sure where Politicus gets the idea that they've changed their name from.
  

Its was a fusion of The Freeminded People's Party (which at least indicates liberalism) and the  Liberal Party of Sweden. It was then unideological wishy-washy from 1934 to 1990 when they added Liberalerna.

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DL
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« Reply #298 on: July 25, 2014, 10:16:02 PM »

France has been very big on name changes - especially on the right. I think the so-called Gaullists have gone from UDR to RPR to UMP and maybe some other acronyms in between!
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ChrisDR68
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« Reply #299 on: July 26, 2014, 05:53:33 AM »

Anyway, the nature of class in the UK means that while not many people are employed in stereotypical industrial occupations, the class identities created by them have not gone away. The main electoral effect of deindustrialisation has been lower turnouts (which is partly a consequence of lower TU membership) and higher swings, rather than a dissolution of the old patterns.

Yes it's still very striking how you can go on a half hour drive and instinctively know whether you're in a Labour or Tory area. Inner cities just feel like Labour strongholds. When you go through many leafy suburban towns you can't imagine anything other than a large Tory majority.

Having said that the class divide is quite a bit less stark than when I was growing up in the 70's and it seems to be gradually lessening with time.
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