I am worried…can i support Kerry?

[Ben.]

For the last few years I have stuck with my Party… I have not been a liberal however; I am moderate to conservative on moral issues, fiscal issues and foreign policy… My views are probably somewhere between Breaux, Lieberman and Edwards… as a person I like Bush I think he is a decent human being I have disagreed with him on many things and I would never embrace the GOP as a whole HOWEVER…

Over the last few days I have come to realise that maybe the section of my party which is at present most powerful (i.e the Pelosi Liberal wing) does not reflect my views on foreign policy or moral issues… however I do not agree with Bus’s handling  of the economy…what the hell do I do?... I am not sure that my party will emerge from its convention with a platform that I can support whole heartedly, Kerry seems to have a good economic policy however with his health care plan it cannot work! Bush seems to want to alter the taxcuts somewhat and give more money to the middleclass in a second term (which makes sense), Bush is strong on defence, maybe a little cavalier but not Goldwater style…

In MO I will vote for Holden and I’ll vote for Farmer however the moderate wing of my party is being ignored… Granholm, Vilsack, Doyle and Rendell all are good moderate Dems… yet the leadership of the party does not at present reflect that Edwards has been the only Dem of late to say “I do not agree with Gay marriage” now this issue is not massively important to me, I support the rights of people to do what they like behind closed doors so long as it is consenting, but I do not believe in diluting the institution of marriage, no other leading Dem has taken a stand against the far left save Bayh on abortion or the likes of Lieberman and Breaux on other issues it is the “Blue Dogs” who have won lately (Chandler, Blanco and Landrieu), the liberals have not…

What do I do?... I don’t know if I can vote for Kerry based on the fact that the platform he will run on may well not be one I agree with, I believe in democratic principles as instituted by the moderate wing of my party in particular the DLC and the “blue dogs” but many liberal dems (not here) have utter contempt for my views… Am I going to end up voting for Bush who largely on social issues and national defence I agree with and believe him to be a good guy personally yet who’s management of the economy has been poor or do I vote for Kerry who on social issues and the economy I disagree with at least in part yet on the environment and the role of government I agree with … Kerry’s record seems to me to be liberal largely because he had the unenviable task of representing MA… I want to vote for my Party and I believe Kerry would be a good president… it is just that the Liberal wing of my party with whom I have profound disagreements looks likely to hijack the convention much as they did in 1864 and then in 1972 and push through a liberal platform that would alienate many moderate democrats such as myself…and a Kerry victory would only strengthen there grip over the throat of the Party…

There is a third option I could just not cast a vote for President and vote for the other offices … what do I do?


PS: Sorry if anyone sees this as taking up needless space with pointless soul searching…

[Ben.]

Look at the polls before election day.  If Missouri is close, vote for Kerry.  If it isn't vote for whoever.

That's really the only answer I can give you...not many people are too wild about Kerry.

that’s something I'm tempted to do... but as I said will we have a platform i agree with?... if only we'd nominated Edwards... ah well...

[Ben.]

will we have a platform i agree with

No.

But does Bush?

Probably not... so I in all likelihood be a lukewarm supporter of the Kerry candidacy... still probably do my bit for the party though if it comes to it... if we lose at least the hardline liberal wing of the party (not Kerry but the likes of Pelosi and the people who will write the platform, talented as Pelosi has been at times) will be dented the DLC will have its chance then... perhaps we can win for a change... But I'm not writing off Kerry as a potential winner just yet...    

[Ben.]

Ben... vote for Kerry. He's not as liberal as certain people would like to paint him, and his economic policy will be an improvement over Bush's...

Question: If the number of moderate Dems increases in the House in November (as looks likely), what would your reaction be if a coup d'etat in the House Dems toppled Pelosi and replaced her with someone like Murtha or Taylor?

I like Ford... the reason for the post is mostly I’ve been in a black mood of late... my faith in Bush as a person has been slipping got the Economist here in the uk today and once again I’m not enthused about either but Kerry is probably the more decent of the two from what I'm now seeing... that would probably change with power... but God d*** it! its politics what do I expect!, I sometimes need to be a little more realistic, its not Kerry that worries me its the Liberals writing the platform... we will see... but your right about the "Blue Dogs" they are growing in numbers and power, it does look like they will become a even more powerful force after November, thus opening the way for Senator Ford!... hey I can dream... well in reality I think he is one of our best bets for the future IMHO...young, moderate, charismatic, southern, black, its all there....  there is hope and hey at least we didn’t nominate Dean!... even though Dean was not that radical in reality, he just gaffed and was bad on TV and was painted as radical, but your right Kerry is not the liberal that many think him to be (read last weeks economist), I just worry about what the platform will be like… but I’m beginning to feel a little more up beat than I was earlier…      

[Ben.]

"Senator Ford" does sound good
First black Senate Majority Leader?

Hell Yeah!!!

I think he can do it! I really do... that Guy is going all the way IMHO...  if Kerry loses in Nov and Ford replaces Frist in 2006 he could even have a shot at the nomination then, however his best years are probably 2012, 2016 and 2020 IMHO but as I said we will see... people wonder if the US is ready for a Black president I think the answer is a resounding YES!

[Ben.]

America needs more Fords and Bishops... and a lot less McKinney's...

Dame Strait!


But it won’t happen for a long time.... i should say that i am a moderate to populist at the federal level while at the state level i tend to be more of a populist all round...

But Your right!

[Ben.]

It'll happen when racial gerrymandering is banned...

We are the worst offenders in that regard... but both parties do it to one extent or another... dame it I’m so jaded….

[Ben.]

Ben,

I am not goig to tell you who to vote for.  Just let me ask you a few questions to help you decide for yourself.

Would you be proud to have John Kerry as President?

Are you proud right now that George Bush is President?

If something terrrible happened a few months into 2005, who would you rather have in charge?

Does John Kerry really care about people like you?  Does George Bush really care?

Which candidate do you believe is more likely to do something great, I mean really great for the country/world?

Which candidate is more likely do to something truly awful that hurts the country/world?

I hope this is helpful.

Now, let's not be partisan.

I concur with KEmperor.

Well probably the economy... and on that basis I lean towards Kerry, looking at things as they presently are I'm less concerned about the uber-liberals in congress ( I was probably spending too long on Democratic underground! ) ...  now it appears to me as though the "blue dogs" and "DLC" are going to be stronger in the next congress than they presently are... looking at things as they now are I'm far less worried about the liberals (and I mean people to the left of Kerry here, impractical and ill-informed people not bad or immoral people) ... Kerry's spending pledges still worry me... he needs to say that these spending proposals would have to come in a second Kerry term but apart from these earlier spending pledges (which the conservative democrats in congress would help keep in check) ... on the basis now of how much stronger the DLC and the "Blue Dogs" now appear to be and the fact that the prospect of the "Jerry Brown/ Nancy Pelosi/ Denis Kucinich" wing taking control of the drafting of the party platform or dominating the congressional leadership of the party now seems very remote, so it looks like I'm back in the Kerry camp, I mean what ever my reservations about Kerry's "liberalism" I'm not sure (How ever much i personally warm to Bush) that this country should have another four more year of him... I still think Kerry is not the best candidate however i reckon that I'll be backing him in November now... ahh… back in the fold… even if I am out on the right of the party on foreign policy (being a “Scoop Jackson” Democrat) and to a lesser extent on social issues…      

[Ben.]

Ben,

I am not goig to tell you who to vote for.  Just let me ask you a few questions to help you decide for yourself.

Would you be proud to have John Kerry as President?

Are you proud right now that George Bush is President?

If something terrrible happened a few months into 2005, who would you rather have in charge?

Does John Kerry really care about people like you?  Does George Bush really care?

Which candidate do you believe is more likely to do something great, I mean really great for the country/world?

Which candidate is more likely do to something truly awful that hurts the country/world?

I hope this is helpful.

Now, let's not be partisan.

I concur with KEmperor.

Well probably the economy... and on that basis I lean towards Kerry, looking at things as they presently are I'm less concerned about the uber-liberals in congress ( I was probably spending too long on Democratic underground! ) ...  now it appears to me as though the "blue dogs" and "DLC" are going to be stronger in the next congress than they presently are... looking at things as they now are I'm far less worried about the liberals (and I mean people to the left of Kerry here, impractical and ill-informed people not bad or immoral people) ... Kerry's spending pledges still worry me... he needs to say that these spending proposals would have to come in a second Kerry term but apart from these earlier spending pledges (which the conservative democrats in congress would help keep in check) ... on the basis now of how much stronger the DLC and the "Blue Dogs" now appear to be and the fact that the prospect of the "Jerry Brown/ Nancy Pelosi/ Denis Kucinich" wing taking control of the drafting of the party platform or dominating the congressional leadership of the party now seems very remote, so it looks like I'm back in the Kerry camp, I mean what ever my reservations about Kerry's "liberalism" I'm not sure (How ever much i personally warm to Bush) that this country should have another four more year of him... I still think Kerry is not the best candidate however i reckon that I'll be backing him in November now... ahh… back in the fold… even if I am out on the right of the party on foreign policy (being a “Scoop Jackson” Democrat) and to a lesser extent on social issues…      

I am that as well, and I'm probably to the right of hte party on economy as well. Doesn't bother me, shouldn't bother you.

I have to admit i was in a "black mood" when i started this thread but i expect you and i gustaf agree a great deal on politics... I think of myself as a moderate dem on foreign policy and social issues, however unlike you seem to be I'm more of a populist on economic issues (but i like to think I'm a responsible populist ) ... you seem rather like Lieberman on the issue while I'm proably somwhere between Lieberman and Edwards...

[Ben.]

...but I am essentially a moderate right-winger.

aha!    

I think he might mean by European standards... no Gustaf dont turn to the Dark side NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!




I mean here in the UK (where i am at the moment) the "mainstream rightwing " is pretty much on a par with say Jo Lieberman or at a strech John Breaux is quite odd really, its strange how far to the right many in the UK percive the US as being... having said that it hasnt made me shift to the left any more...    

[Ben.]

For the last few years I have stuck with my Party… I have not been a liberal however; I am moderate to conservative on moral issues, fiscal issues and foreign policy… My views are probably somewhere between Breaux, Lieberman and Edwards… as a person I like Bush I think he is a decent human being I have disagreed with him on many things and I would never embrace the GOP as a whole HOWEVER…

Over the last few days I have come to realise that maybe the section of my party which is at present most powerful (i.e the Pelosi Liberal wing) does not reflect my views on foreign policy or moral issues… however I do not agree with Bus’s handling  of the economy…what the hell do I do?... I am not sure that my party will emerge from its convention with a platform that I can support whole heartedly, Kerry seems to have a good economic policy however with his health care plan it cannot work! Bush seems to want to alter the taxcuts somewhat and give more money to the middleclass in a second term (which makes sense), Bush is strong on defence, maybe a little cavalier but not Goldwater style…

In MO I will vote for Holden and I’ll vote for Farmer however the moderate wing of my party is being ignored… Granholm, Vilsack, Doyle and Rendell all are good moderate Dems… yet the leadership of the party does not at present reflect that Edwards has been the only Dem of late to say “I do not agree with Gay marriage” now this issue is not massively important to me, I support the rights of people to do what they like behind closed doors so long as it is consenting, but I do not believe in diluting the institution of marriage, no other leading Dem has taken a stand against the far left save Bayh on abortion or the likes of Lieberman and Breaux on other issues it is the “Blue Dogs” who have won lately (Chandler, Blanco and Landrieu), the liberals have not…

What do I do?... I don’t know if I can vote for Kerry based on the fact that the platform he will run on may well not be one I agree with, I believe in democratic principles as instituted by the moderate wing of my party in particular the DLC and the “blue dogs” but many liberal dems (not here) have utter contempt for my views… Am I going to end up voting for Bush who largely on social issues and national defence I agree with and believe him to be a good guy personally yet who’s management of the economy has been poor or do I vote for Kerry who on social issues and the economy I disagree with at least in part yet on the environment and the role of government I agree with … Kerry’s record seems to me to be liberal largely because he had the unenviable task of representing MA… I want to vote for my Party and I believe Kerry would be a good president… it is just that the Liberal wing of my party with whom I have profound disagreements looks likely to hijack the convention much as they did in 1864 and then in 1972 and push through a liberal platform that would alienate many moderate democrats such as myself…and a Kerry victory would only strengthen there grip over the throat of the Party…

There is a third option I could just not cast a vote for President and vote for the other offices … what do I do?


PS: Sorry if anyone sees this as taking up needless space with pointless soul searching…

Damn.  That is exactly how I feel.  Like, word for word.  Except that I'm not a Democrat, so I don't have all that pesky traitor's guilt .

I think there are forces within the Democrat party that would like to do very damaging things to our society, transforming it into a secular-humanist's ideal, where there are no sexual mores, where people belong to their communtiy first, and their nuclear family last, where religion is shoved from the public view and discouraged wherever possible.  

I know this isn't all of the Democrats, but it's a large enough element that I can't associate with them.

I think we do agree Beef... for me its the old ideals of the democratic party which has always kept me in the party... the secularist tendency within the party is there, but it is not strong or popular enough to be overt... but in the likes of Kucinich and to a certain extent Dean and other uber-liberals it does have a presence on the fringes of the party... as I have said I do worry about it having some incipit influence over the platform and my party's positions however we'll have to wait till the convention... but with moderate dems winning elections (Blanco, Landrieu, Chandler etc...) and the fact that it looks as though the "Blue Dogs" and the "DLC" are going into this election stronger than they where before... I am more confident than I was that these uber-liberals can be pushed further to the fringes... well here's hoping at least...  

[Ben.]

 

Ben,

Here's a group you would be very interested in:

http://www.democratsforlife.org

Seem like decent guys... I am really optimistic about the Blue Dogs and the DLC these days... dame I'm temperamental!

I like Feingold too... How did he vote on the partial birth abortion ban?... Abortion is not a clincher for me as far as votes go, I would prefer a moderate pro-lifer (like Evan Bayh) but as I said its not my number one point (its important though)... but Feingold is a principled guy also a fairly moral one from what I hear a observant Jew and the only guy who voted against the Patriot act and yet he supported the appointment of John Ashcroft because he thought that was the Presidents right to have who ever he wanted no matter who they where... Just for being that principled I reckon he should stay in the senate... but as always it yours and the state of Wisconsin’s call in this matter... so best of luck!    

[Ben.]

Ben,

Here's a group you would be very interested in:

http://www.democratsforlife.org

Seem like decent guys... I am really optimistic about the Blue Dogs and the DLC these days... dame I'm temperamental!

I like Feingold too... How did he vote on the partial birth abortion ban?... Abortion is not a clincher for me as far as votes go,

It isn't for me, but I do have a real problem with people who support late-term abortions.  I can understand leaving the question of the life of an early-term embryo or fetus up to personal conviction.  But when you get into the third trimester, clearly ending its life is no different from infanticide.  It's a horrible, horrible, gruesome thing.

Pro-life extremists believe that all human life has the complete rights of an idividual from the moment of conception.
Pro-choice extremists believe that the justidiction of goverment ends at the birth canal.

Unless both sides move from those positions, we aren't going to get anywhere.

Exactly! As I said I think you have to restrict when a person can have an abortion as there is a point where as you say it is simply infanticide… I am usually uncomfortable with actively legislating against people making choices however there are issues such as abortion and other ethical and moral issues where I think society should set limits and make a stand (don’t mean to rant or sound clichéd there )… So I defiantly back the banning of “partial birth abortions” and would personally urge a woman not to have an abortion unless her health was seriously endangered or the Child was seriously at risk of being severally handicapped… so as I said I pretty much agree with Evan Byah’s moderately pro-life position…