Opinion of the hard lefty laborites who are upper middle class or better

[Antonio the Sixth]

Since when was 'the left' opposed to charities or charity as such? I think this is veering towards 'politics as it ought to be' rather than 'as it actually is'.

Speaking for myself, I have nothing against charity. But I do utterly loathe the idea of it being a substitute for redistribution.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Certainly better than upper middle class libertarians.

I'd have to agree.

Nobody loves liberty more than an upper middle class or wealthy teen living off of Dad's labor and Mom's mad cooking skillz!

[Leftbehind]

Since when was 'the left' opposed to charities or charity as such? I think this is veering towards 'politics as it ought to be' rather than 'as it actually is'.

Well I wasn't arguing the left were opposed to them, but that they didn't believe in them (and that there's certainly no obligation to give to them).

[ingemann]

I'll refrain from being a dick and talking about "not voting their interests". They have their opinions and should stick to them.

I prefer an honest labourite like TNF (not sure how rich he is) to the kind of snobbish latte liberalism that can be found in the upper middle class. Talking about union power just bugs me less than the endless talk about gun control or foreign aid.

I agree when I look at the issue the left here tend to fight for, I can only think not that they're unimportant, but that's so many more worthy things to fight over. It seem to me because the Democratic party have become so dominated by urban professionals, that their social issue are almost the only one fought over, while the really great issue are ignored.
Of course the European left here isn't much better, they too ignore fight mostly for superficial causes.

[freefair]

whilst legitimising their privilege

Not all wealth is privilege. A large minority of it is, certainly, but honestly earned wealth coming from productivity or inventiveness is deserved and in my view wholly legitimate.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Even those who have earned their wealth honestly and doing something productive (and those aren't as common as one would think), they still owe their success in large part to the help they received from others - first and foremost from the State they claim to hate so much.

BTW, you should fix your quote.

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

Even those who have earned their wealth honestly and doing something productive (and those aren't as common as one would think), they still owe their success in large part to the help they received from others - first and foremost from the State they claim to hate so much.

BTW, you should fix your quote.

But seriously, this is absolutely true.  Anybody who has success has relied in some part on the institutions, infrastructure, and the collective effort often referred to as "society".  Sometimes I want to send these conservatives to a uninhabited islands out in the Pacific.  There ya go fellas... no socialist state or regulation to get in your way... now BUILD THAT!

[freefair]

I was actually going to post something in reply on "YDBT", but I didn't want to go off topic, though you you've mentioned it.
Obama didn't say nobody builds a business on their own, he said one can't build a business without "foundation" infrastructure society provides.
You both seem to be assuming a dogmatic anacho-capitalism on the part of others. Well, I'm nothing of the sort.  Even Elizabeth Warren says rich people should be able to keep a "Big Hunk" (stupid phrase i take to mean at least 50%) of what they earn.

[DC Al Fine]

I was actually going to post something in reply on "YDBT", but I didn't want to go off topic, though you you've mentioned it.
Obama didn't say nobody builds a business on their own, he said one can't build a business without "foundation" infrastructure society provides.
You both seem to be assuming a dogmatic anacho-capitalism on the part of others. Well, I'm nothing of the sort.  Even Elizabeth Warren says rich people should be able to keep a "Big Hunk" (stupid phrase i take to mean at least 50%) of what they earn.

Indeed. For all the criticism of right wing businessmen, they usually believe the government should provide roads, education etc.

EDIT: Remember, profit maximization is the name of the game here. Anarchy is bad for business.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I was actually going to post something in reply on "YDBT", but I didn't want to go off topic, though you you've mentioned it.
Obama didn't say nobody builds a business on their own, he said one can't build a business without "foundation" infrastructure society provides.
You both seem to be assuming a dogmatic anacho-capitalism on the part of others. Well, I'm nothing of the sort.  Even Elizabeth Warren says rich people should be able to keep a "Big Hunk" (stupid phrase i take to mean at least 50%) of what they earn.

Indeed. For all the criticism of right wing businessmen, they usually believe the government should provide roads, education etc.

Sure they want. They just don't want to pay their fair share of taxes necessary for their building.

[minionofmidas]

A very pleasant, charming, and friendly demographic in person; in spite of that the voting habits are just the worst. Voted HP.

Curiously I find myself feeling the opposite. A lot of these types are insufferable and tiresome to interact with personally.

Let me guess - you interact with them in service situations, Vosem doesn't.

[minionofmidas]

Let's be honest, we don't like the idea of the rich.

Fixed.

[Cory]

As TNF said upper middle class libertarians who presume to give others lectures about "hard work" are infinitely worse then latte liberals. They are some of the most sheltered people you will ever meet.

Ayn Rand is just Marx for rich kids.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

As TNF said upper middle class libertarians who presume to give others lectures about "hard work" are infinitely worse then latte liberals. They are some of the most sheltered people you will ever meet.

Ayn Rand is just Marx for rich kids.

Sounds like Torie?

[Cory]

Sounds like Torie?

I don't know what his personal background is.

But seriously almost every libertarian I've met will never be more then an awkward phone call to their parents away from getting out of money problems.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Let's be honest, we don't like the idea of the rich.

Fixed.

That, as well, works.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

As TNF said upper middle class libertarians who presume to give others lectures about "hard work" are infinitely worse then latte liberals. They are some of the most sheltered people you will ever meet.

Ayn Rand is just Marx for rich kids.

Funny thing is, I am a middle class (not upper middle class, but we live comfortably) libertarian who got a job, worked hard, and collected my paycheck. All of this fits into Ayn Rand's values. I lived by a Randist principal, and it paid off for me. While Rand is embraced by spoiled parasites, her message is for anybody who wants to live by, and it sure fits me well. So unless you are going to tell me that I don't deserve my paycheck, for some reason, I am curious as to your opinion of Ayn Rand respectable circumstances.

[freefair]

I thought Marx for Rich Kids was Marx??
As Al said, businesspeople are rarely libertarian (apart from the Koch bros), as they love corporatist-protectionist-welfare.

[Torie]

As TNF said upper middle class libertarians who presume to give others lectures about "hard work" are infinitely worse then latte liberals. They are some of the most sheltered people you will ever meet.

Ayn Rand is just Marx for rich kids.

Sounds like Torie?

That's not nice. And I'm not a libertarian.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

As TNF said upper middle class libertarians who presume to give others lectures about "hard work" are infinitely worse then latte liberals. They are some of the most sheltered people you will ever meet.

Ayn Rand is just Marx for rich kids.

Sounds like Torie?

That's not nice. And I'm not a libertarian.

What?  Socially you are......no? 

[traininthedistance]

As TNF said upper middle class libertarians who presume to give others lectures about "hard work" are infinitely worse then latte liberals. They are some of the most sheltered people you will ever meet.

Ayn Rand is just Marx for rich kids.

Sounds like Torie?

That's not nice. And I'm not a libertarian.

What?  Socially you are......no?  

Torie is smart enough to recognize that public goods are a thing that exists, and that public spending is also good for rich people, ergo he is not a libertarian.

[Torie]

Grumps, I don't give lectures about the virtues of the Protestant work ethic (except in the context of trying to get educated so that one is not consigned to being the sort of person opebo claims almost everyone is, who is not of the oppressor class). Heck, these days the hardest things I work at are getting laid early and often, and buffing up.

And the poster above is absolutely correct (except the bit that one of the reasons that I am not a libertarian is because it does not maximize my net worth). I was and am the biggest welfare queen on this Forum, and it's a disgrace. My ilk needs to be taken off the welfare rolls - ASAP.

[Leftbehind]

whilst legitimising their privilege

Not all wealth is privilege. A large minority of it is, certainly, but honestly earned wealth coming from productivity or inventiveness is deserved and in my view wholly legitimate.

Wealth is privilege, regardless of how 'deservingly' you obtained it - neither productivity nor inventiveness should afford you ludicrous multiples of what the average worker gains, and is usually built off the back off other's work anyway.

Even Elizabeth Warren says rich people should be able to keep a "Big Hunk" (stupid phrase i take to mean at least 50%) of what they earn.

Oh, well, that settles the matter. Why didn't you say?

I was actually going to post something in reply on "YDBT", but I didn't want to go off topic, though you you've mentioned it.
Obama didn't say nobody builds a business on their own, he said one can't build a business without "foundation" infrastructure society provides.
You both seem to be assuming a dogmatic anacho-capitalism on the part of others. Well, I'm nothing of the sort.  Even Elizabeth Warren says rich people should be able to keep a "Big Hunk" (stupid phrase i take to mean at least 50%) of what they earn.

Indeed. For all the criticism of right wing businessmen, they usually believe the government should provide roads, education etc.

Sure they want. They just don't want to pay their fair share of taxes necessary for their building.

Yeah, they want government in as much as it facilitates their business, usually without any obligations.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

 

whilst legitimising their privilege

Not all wealth is privilege. A large minority of it is, certainly, but honestly earned wealth coming from productivity or inventiveness is deserved and in my view wholly legitimate.

Wealth is privilege, regardless of how 'deservingly' you obtained it - neither productivity nor inventiveness should afford you ludicrous multiples of what the average worker gains, and is usually built off the back off other's work anyway.

Ugh, no. If I earn money, it is MY money. That is basic human law. The government is entitled only to a small percentage of my earnings to cover the roads that I use to get to work each day, etc. I look at the tax argument as a business transaction. I pay taxes to use the roads, just like customers pay my company for a Pita Gyro or Super Burger.

[Leftbehind]

whilst legitimising their privilege

Not all wealth is privilege. A large minority of it is, certainly, but honestly earned wealth coming from productivity or inventiveness is deserved and in my view wholly legitimate.

Wealth is privilege, regardless of how 'deservingly' you obtained it - neither productivity nor inventiveness should afford you ludicrous multiples of what the average worker gains, and is usually built off the back off other's work anyway.

Ugh, no. If I earn money, it is MY money. That is basic human law. The government is entitled only to a small percentage of my earnings to cover the roads that I use to get to work each day, etc. I look at the tax argument as a business transaction. I pay taxes to use the roads, just like customers pay my company for a Pita Gyro or Super Burger.

lol money is an invented construct, and what 'human law' is this? What you earn is dictated by the market - or rather the state, that's enforcing the economic system. As such, just to get to there you're already dependent on the state to give you your wealth (they also have the power to make that money you've earned utterly worthless) and so what they give, they can take away.