Opinion of the hard lefty laborites who are upper middle class or better

[CatoMinor]

I always find peculiar the people who from their rhetoric sound like borderline marxists, yet have had rather privileged lives and at the very worst they worked part time at walmart in the air conditioning so that they could extra spending money in the summer. The folks who rant about solidarity and the workers, form their macbook while sipping a frapachino at Starbucks.

(No snowstalker, I am not directing this at you, though to be honest you do kind of fit into this category. )

[rejectamenta]

FFs for having at least an ounce of compassion for the truly doomed amongst us.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm probably one of them...

So, Jbrase, what's your opinion of antiracist whites, feminist men, and anti-homophobic heterosexuals?

[greenforest32]

FFs for having at least an ounce of compassion for the truly doomed amongst us.

[TNF]

Certainly better than upper middle class libertarians.

[DC Al Fine]

I'll refrain from being a dick and talking about "not voting their interests". They have their opinions and should stick to them.

I prefer an honest labourite like TNF (not sure how rich he is) to the kind of snobbish latte liberalism that can be found in the upper middle class. Talking about union power just bugs me less than the endless talk about gun control or foreign aid.

[Person Man]

What about those who are the exact opposite? I suppose people are entitled to their opinions. I too have trouble resisting the urge to call Wallmart Conservatives "stupid".  There are those among them that are much bigger walking contradictions than the average six figure stoner with two Master's at Starbucks.

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

FFs for having at least an ounce of compassion for the truly doomed amongst us.

Good show, fellow D-NJ.  Yes, I came from a middle class background where to say I "struggled" would be a stretch, indeed.  Nevertheless,

-I went to college in a truly desperate and ruined city in Camden, NJ.  When you meet some of the locals, talk to them, and see the school their children go to, the whole notion of the universally achievable, pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps "American Dream" kind of goes out the window.  

-I come from a divorced family where my mother went from stay-at-home to a union job with the USPS.  Having met most of her coworkers and heard their stories about dealing with management and whatnot, I tend to universally side with the worker.  A vast majority, if not all, are just hard workers looking to make a living against an economic system that is becoming increasingly unworkable for them.  

And between my fraternity and some of my dad's more well-to-do friends in PA, it's not like I haven't been exposed to the other side.  And the conservative economic arguments about taxes, takers/makers, etc. and their reactionary tendencies (I don't know how many times I have to hear the argument that isolated instances of someone abusing social security or welfare means the whole thing has to be dismantled)... nope, just don't buy it, and I find a lot of right-wing proposals borderline barbaric and offensive.  

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

What about those who are the exact opposite? I suppose people are entitled to their opinions. I too have trouble resisting the urge to call Wallmart Conservatives "stupid".  There are those among them that are much bigger walking contradictions than the average six figure stoner with two Master's at Starbucks.

There's a difference.  Latte liberals stand to lose a bit with a liberal government, but ultimately will not be knocked from their lofty perch.  

Conversely, a Wal-Mart conservative voting for this guy...



...might as well just build your own gallows and tie your own noose.  

[Person Man]

FFs for having at least an ounce of compassion for the truly doomed amongst us.

Good show, fellow D-NJ.  Yes, I came from a middle class background where to say I "struggled" would be a stretch, indeed.  Nevertheless,

-I went to college in a truly desperate and ruined city in Camden, NJ.  When you meet some of the locals, talk to them, and see the school their children go to, the whole notion of the universally achievable, pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps "American Dream" kind of goes out the window.  

-I come from a divorced family where my mother went from stay-at-home to a union job with the USPS.  Having met most of her coworkers and heard their stories about dealing with management and whatnot, I tend to universally side with the worker.  A vast majority, if not all, are just hard workers looking to make a living against an economic system that is becoming increasingly unworkable for them.  

And between my fraternity and some of my dad's more well-to-do friends in PA, it's not like I haven't been exposed to the other side.  And the conservative economic arguments about taxes, takers/makers, etc. and their reactionary tendencies (I don't know how many times I have to hear the argument that isolated instances of someone abusing social security or welfare means the whole thing has to be dismantled)... nope, just don't buy it, and I find a lot of right-wing proposals borderline barbaric and offensive.  

What are some of the things you heard of?

Being the son of a public school teacher in  moderately conservative East Hillsbourough to very Conservative Wyoming, I can say I have heard my share. Generally these "modest proposals" include-

-Laws mandating that judges order the bailiff to pointblank execute the defendant in court upon conviction of murder, rape and selling drugs, even pot.
-Laws mandating that people who are found commiting homosexual behavior or giving or recieving abortions or sex for money must have rocks thrown at them.
- That any country that is suspected of nuclear enrichment that doesn't have good relations with us be sterilized with ICBMs.
-That all Federal Land should be strip mined and that there should be a "Buffalo Hunt" of all natural predators larger than a house cat.
-That anyone approaching the Southern US border where there is not a border crossing should be shot on sight.
- That anyone who isn't in this country illegally should be deported on large cattle trains that come into town take everyone.
- That there be no more research or education in Evolutionary Biology.
- That starvation is  justice for not having a job regardless of the situation.  


Basically a bizzare mixture of 2013 Suadi Arabia and 1940 Germany.

What about those who are the exact opposite? I suppose people are entitled to their opinions. I too have trouble resisting the urge to call Wallmart Conservatives "stupid".  There are those among them that are much bigger walking contradictions than the average six figure stoner with two Master's at Starbucks.

There's a difference.  Latte liberals stand to lose a bit with a liberal government, but ultimately will not be knocked from their lofty perch.  

Conversely, a Wal-Mart conservative voting for this guy...



...might as well just build your own gallows and tie your own noose.  

I think the Wallmart Conservative mantra is "to trend water, you must push down on it".

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

FFs for having at least an ounce of compassion for the truly doomed amongst us.

Good show, fellow D-NJ.  Yes, I came from a middle class background where to say I "struggled" would be a stretch, indeed.  Nevertheless,

-I went to college in a truly desperate and ruined city in Camden, NJ.  When you meet some of the locals, talk to them, and see the school their children go to, the whole notion of the universally achievable, pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps "American Dream" kind of goes out the window.  

-I come from a divorced family where my mother went from stay-at-home to a union job with the USPS.  Having met most of her coworkers and heard their stories about dealing with management and whatnot, I tend to universally side with the worker.  A vast majority, if not all, are just hard workers looking to make a living against an economic system that is becoming increasingly unworkable for them.  

And between my fraternity and some of my dad's more well-to-do friends in PA, it's not like I haven't been exposed to the other side.  And the conservative economic arguments about taxes, takers/makers, etc. and their reactionary tendencies (I don't know how many times I have to hear the argument that isolated instances of someone abusing social security or welfare means the whole thing has to be dismantled)... nope, just don't buy it, and I find a lot of right-wing proposals borderline barbaric and offensive.  

What are some of the things you heard of?

Being the son of a public school teacher in  moderately conservative East Hillsbourough to very Conservative Wyoming, I can say I have heard my share. Generally these "modest proposals" include-

-Laws mandating that judges order the bailiff to pointblank execute the defendant in court upon conviction of murder, rape and selling drugs, even pot.
-Laws mandating that people who are found commiting homosexual behavior or giving or recieving abortions or sex for money must have rocks thrown at them.
- That any country that is suspected of nuclear enrichment that doesn't have good relations with us be sterilized with ICBMs.
-That all Federal Land should be strip mined and that there should be a "Buffalo Hunt" of all natural predators larger than a house cat.
-That anyone approaching the Southern US border where there is not a border crossing should be shot on sight.
- That anyone who isn't in this country illegally should be deported on large cattle trains that come into town take everyone.
- That there be no more research or education in Evolutionary Biology.
- That starvation is  justice for not having a job regardless of the situation.  


Basically a bizzare mixture of 2013 Suadi Arabia and 1940 Germany.

What about those who are the exact opposite? I suppose people are entitled to their opinions. I too have trouble resisting the urge to call Wallmart Conservatives "stupid".  There are those among them that are much bigger walking contradictions than the average six figure stoner with two Master's at Starbucks.

There's a difference.  Latte liberals stand to lose a bit with a liberal government, but ultimately will not be knocked from their lofty perch.  

Conversely, a Wal-Mart conservative voting for this guy...



...might as well just build your own gallows and tie your own noose.  

I think the Wallmart Conservative mantra is "to trend water, you must push down on it".

Cutting overtime benefits, privatizing Social Security, massive deregulation, a whole new round of medical tests for those seeking welfare... those would be some of the proposals I've heard right-wing family friends speak of. 

As for just rhetoric?  I'm naive to sit here and allow "them" to refuse to work and leech of welfare.  "They" are lazy.  Healthcare reform is unreasonable because it might hurt the bottom line of some of our largest corporations.

It's just the usual drivel that comes up between people at a social gathering talking about politics.  It's a bit more personal for me, though, because I feel ostracized for the views I espouse.  I guess they feel that because I'm my dad's son, whose worked his way up in the financial/accounting industry and makes very good money, I'm going to spew right-wing capitalist bullcrap like your typical well-off, college-aged Caucasian frat guy.  When we get into it and I'm a pro-union, pro-regulation, tax-the-rich lefty, everyone is all surprised and I get the usual, "Oh, you'll grow up and be a Republican someday".  <== this of course is infuriating, as well as completely untrue, as I've only become more liberal as time has gone on.  Look at some of the posts I made in 2004 and tell me I've become conservative.

[DC Al Fine]

FFs for having at least an ounce of compassion for the truly doomed amongst us.

Good show, fellow D-NJ.  Yes, I came from a middle class background where to say I "struggled" would be a stretch, indeed.  Nevertheless,

-I went to college in a truly desperate and ruined city in Camden, NJ.  When you meet some of the locals, talk to them, and see the school their children go to, the whole notion of the universally achievable, pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps "American Dream" kind of goes out the window.  

-I come from a divorced family where my mother went from stay-at-home to a union job with the USPS.  Having met most of her coworkers and heard their stories about dealing with management and whatnot, I tend to universally side with the worker.  A vast majority, if not all, are just hard workers looking to make a living against an economic system that is becoming increasingly unworkable for them.  

And between my fraternity and some of my dad's more well-to-do friends in PA, it's not like I haven't been exposed to the other side.  And the conservative economic arguments about taxes, takers/makers, etc. and their reactionary tendencies (I don't know how many times I have to hear the argument that isolated instances of someone abusing social security or welfare means the whole thing has to be dismantled)... nope, just don't buy it, and I find a lot of right-wing proposals borderline barbaric and offensive.  

What are some of the things you heard of?

Being the son of a public school teacher in  moderately conservative East Hillsbourough to very Conservative Wyoming, I can say I have heard my share. Generally these "modest proposals" include-

-Laws mandating that judges order the bailiff to pointblank execute the defendant in court upon conviction of murder, rape and selling drugs, even pot.
-Laws mandating that people who are found commiting homosexual behavior or giving or recieving abortions or sex for money must have rocks thrown at them.
- That any country that is suspected of nuclear enrichment that doesn't have good relations with us be sterilized with ICBMs.
-That all Federal Land should be strip mined and that there should be a "Buffalo Hunt" of all natural predators larger than a house cat.
-That anyone approaching the Southern US border where there is not a border crossing should be shot on sight.
- That anyone who isn't in this country illegally should be deported on large cattle trains that come into town take everyone.
- That there be no more research or education in Evolutionary Biology.
- That starvation is  justice for not having a job regardless of the situation.  


Basically a bizzare mixture of 2013 Suadi Arabia and 1940 Germany.

So basically you've been hanging out with a bunch Opebos of the right.

[CatoMinor]

I'm probably one of them...

So, Jbrase, what's your opinion of antiracist whites, feminist men, and anti-homophobic heterosexuals?

I am not saying they should have a certain ideology because of where they are in life, I just find it annoying sometimes when people talk about the poor and working class and have never lived among them. Someone's talk of socialism is a lot less convincing, to me personally, when the closest they've been to working in factory or on a farm was reading a book about the guilded age.

On a side note: I am not upper middle class, or suburban, or live in a basement, before anyone starts killing off strawmen.

[freefair]

I'm probably one of them...

So, Jbrase, what's your opinion of antiracist whites, feminist men, and anti-homophobic heterosexuals?

You don't need to make life harder for all whites to reduce racism, for men to achieve gender equality, for straights for gays to achieve equality. You certainly don't need to kill anyone connected with them, which is what extreme leftists and unionists (ie Trots) seem to want.

[freefair]

I'm probably one of them...

So, Jbrase, what's your opinion of antiracist whites, feminist men, and anti-homophobic heterosexuals?

I am not saying they should have a certain ideology because of where they are in life, I just find it annoying sometimes when people talk about the poor and working class and have never lived among them. Someone's talk of socialism is a lot less convincing, to me personally, when the closest they've been to working in factory or on a farm was reading a book about the guilded age.

On a side note: I am not upper middle class, or suburban, or live in a basement, before anyone starts killing off strawmen.

Basically, this. If one wants to be taken seriously, they should all at least deliberately endeavor to give their own surplus money away to charity or to governments in times of low tax rates, and to spend a few months living alongside the mass of people on lower incomes.

[TNF]

I'm probably one of them...

So, Jbrase, what's your opinion of antiracist whites, feminist men, and anti-homophobic heterosexuals?

I am not saying they should have a certain ideology because of where they are in life, I just find it annoying sometimes when people talk about the poor and working class and have never lived among them. Someone's talk of socialism is a lot less convincing, to me personally, when the closest they've been to working in factory or on a farm was reading a book about the guilded age.

On a side note: I am not upper middle class, or suburban, or live in a basement, before anyone starts killing off strawmen.

Your understanding of working life is decidedly dated. The factories of the 21st century are the fast food operations, retailers, and the fields, yes, but agriculture has changed beyond recognition since the implementation of farm supports during the New Deal era. How much experience do you have with working in any of those settings, or even in the 'factories or farms' you describe above?

What you are essentially doing here is calling people out for being 'class traitors', denigrating them for not voting the way you think they should (judging by your posting history and your general attitude, you'd rather these people vote for libertarians or neoliberals, because that makes more sense to you in your stunted political horizons). In doing so, you are no better than the vast majorities of liberals who go after working class people for voting Republican in instances that they do.

Basically, this entire thread boils down to: "People who don't vote the way I think they should are stupid!" - Jbrase

[CatoMinor]

Basically, this entire thread boils down to: "People who don't vote the way I think they should are stupid!" - Jbrase

You clearly didn't read any of my posts did you?

[minionofmidas]

I'll refrain from being a dick and talking about "not voting their interests". They have their opinions and should stick to them.

I prefer an honest labourite like TNF (not sure how rich he is) to the kind of snobbish latte liberalism that can be found in the upper middle class. Talking about union power just bugs me less than the endless talk about gun control or foreign aid.

Ah, of course the kind of latte liberals who don't particularly care about the actual income levels of the poor of their own country actually are voting their interests, or at least not in a way to actively endanger them (they are not voting to maximize their future earnings... they're not THAT greedy.)

And the degree of influence they've had over the post-1968 left and especially today IS a problem.

[windjammer]

So I suppose my opinion will be judged like a "moderate hero" label by the awfulest members of this forum but I don't think we should judge people on their political beliefs. I explain, my german teacher is really conservative, a bit like DC al Fine, really conservative on social issues and relatively moderate on economic issues, a reactionary monarchist in France! But he's really a nice person! However, my next SES teacher next year (SES= sociology+economy) is marxist and TNF would probably be a moderate compared to him . But he seems to be really AWFUL: pretentious, arrogant from what I've seen.
So to answer this question, it really depends the persons. If you speak about the typical "bobos" who come from the upper class and are marxist because it's in fashion and they stay arrogant and pretentious, yes this people are really AWFUL!
However, the lefty laborites who are upper middly class and have studied the society to understand that they are privilegious and it's time to change things, they're FF. We have to be realist, it's not the poors who try to change things and it's understandable. You won't begin a demonstration if you know that you have to feed your 6 children, that your wife is sick and the doctor is expensive, you will support your bad conditions. It's frequently the "upper middle class" which tries to change things, Bluum was rich, Marx was a member of the upper class (I'm not marxist but we have to recognize that he wanted to improve workers's condititions).
So we shouldn't judge people on their beliefs but on their personality and on their actions!

[Link]

I always find peculiar the people who from their rhetoric sound like borderline marxists, yet have had rather privileged lives and at the very worst they worked part time at walmart in the air conditioning so that they could extra spending money in the summer. The folks who rant about solidarity and the workers, form their macbook while sipping a frapachino at Starbucks.

(No snowstalker, I am not directing this at you, though to be honest you do kind of fit into this category. )

Translation:  When you are comfortable you should pretend the working poor don't exist.

Personally when I have extra money to spare I buy American.  I wish things were more clearly labeled as made or assembled in America and I would also like union labels on everything.  What makes more sense to me than volunteering at a soup kitchen or paying higher taxes for welfare is paying Americans directly for their labor.  If people were a little more conscious about this type of thing we the people could solve our own labor and wage problem.  If it costs 10% more to buy American I do it.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

I always find peculiar the people who from their rhetoric sound like borderline marxists, yet have had rather privileged lives and at the very worst they worked part time at walmart in the air conditioning so that they could extra spending money in the summer. The folks who rant about solidarity and the workers, form their macbook while sipping a frapachino at Starbucks.

(No snowstalker, I am not directing this at you, though to be honest you do kind of fit into this category. )

Translation:  When you are comfortable you should pretend the working poor don't exist.

Personally when I have extra money to spare I buy American.  I wish things were more clearly labeled as made or assembled in America and I would also like union labels on everything.  What makes more sense to me than volunteering at a soup kitchen or paying higher taxes for welfare is paying Americans directly for their labor.  If people were a little more conscious about this type of thing we the people could solve our own labor and wage problem.  If it costs 10% more to buy American I do it.

It's actually hard to buy American these days.....as you noted, the stuff isn't labeled well.  Even American brands are too often not made here.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm probably one of them...

So, Jbrase, what's your opinion of antiracist whites, feminist men, and anti-homophobic heterosexuals?

I am not saying they should have a certain ideology because of where they are in life, I just find it annoying sometimes when people talk about the poor and working class and have never lived among them. Someone's talk of socialism is a lot less convincing, to me personally, when the closest they've been to working in factory or on a farm was reading a book about the guilded age.

This idea that you must have lived in a situation to feel real compassion for the people who live in it, while unfortunately true to some degree (see Portman and the other Republicans who are conservative on every issue except the single one that affect them or their relatives), is truly disgusting. I am actually very proud of the fact that my political principles go beyond my own personal situation.

I'm probably one of them...

So, Jbrase, what's your opinion of antiracist whites, feminist men, and anti-homophobic heterosexuals?

You don't need to make life harder for all whites to reduce racism, for men to achieve gender equality, for straights for gays to achieve equality. You certainly don't need to kill anyone connected with them, which is what extreme leftists and unionists (ie Trots) seem to want.

"Make life harder"?

Actually, 95% of the population would benefit from a strong welfare state and comprehensive labor rights, and the remaining 5% wouldn't even lose that much, considering how fast the marginal utility of money decreases when you have more than a certain amount of it.

Plus, actually, a white in a postracial society might not access to the hierarchical level he would have reached if his nonwhite competitors had been discriminated against. So even your premise is wrong.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Let's be honest, we don't like the idea of the rich having an opinion about anything. If they're liberals, they seem to be people rejecting what made them rich. If their conservatives, they're just playing to their interests. At the end of the day, "they haven't worked a day in their lives, so they shouldn't be voicing their opinions on things they obviously don't understand." etc.

[Supersonic]

The absolute, absolute worst. Champagne socialists are just dirt. Especially those who want to abolish things like private schools yet send their children there. That's inexcusable.

[All Along The Watchtower]

I'll refrain from being a dick and talking about "not voting their interests". They have their opinions and should stick to them.

I prefer an honest labourite like TNF (not sure how rich he is) to the kind of snobbish latte liberalism that can be found in the upper middle class. Talking about union power just bugs me less than the endless talk about gun control or foreign aid.

Ah, of course the kind of latte liberals who don't particularly care about the actual income levels of the poor of their own country actually are voting their interests, or at least not in a way to actively endanger them (they are not voting to maximize their future earnings... they're not THAT greedy.)

And the degree of influence they've had over the post-1968 left and especially today IS a problem.

I do wonder how much of the working class (especially rural working class) conservatism seen these days is a reaction to the growing influence of latte liberals and other urban elites in American politics. I mean, the Right is so successful at stirring class resentments against liberal cultural and intellectual elites because many of those places and institutions-whether they be the national news media, or Ivy League universities, or the major coastal metro areas in general-ARE the epicenters of America's elite, and have been for a long time.