Senate Bill: Atlasian Education Modernization Act (Rejected)

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Keep in mind that in Finland, the use of tuition fees is strictly prohibited and all schools are well-funded.  The prohibition of tuition fees hasn't stopped schools in Finland from ranking highest in the world, let alone existing.

I don't understand why we should subsidize private schools to make up for banning tuition, though. Why subsidize the private education sector when we could simply just pump more money into the public sector and drive the perceived need for private schooling out altogether? I'm all for banning tuition fees and private schools, but I don't want the state to make up the difference. We shouldn't pay a dime for people to educate their children outside of the regular public school system.

I want private schools to still exist, but at the same time I would like to de-emphasize our nation's emphasis on competition and instead improve the quality of all schools, be they public or private.  I don't think simply driving private schools out of business is going to help anyone.

[TNF]

Keep in mind that in Finland, the use of tuition fees is strictly prohibited and all schools are well-funded.  The prohibition of tuition fees hasn't stopped schools in Finland from ranking highest in the world, let alone existing.

I don't understand why we should subsidize private schools to make up for banning tuition, though. Why subsidize the private education sector when we could simply just pump more money into the public sector and drive the perceived need for private schooling out altogether? I'm all for banning tuition fees and private schools, but I don't want the state to make up the difference. We shouldn't pay a dime for people to educate their children outside of the regular public school system.

I want private schools to still exist, but at the same time I would like to de-emphasize our nation's emphasis on competition and instead improve the quality of all schools, be they public or private.  I don't think simply driving private schools out of business is going to help anyone.

You can't have quality schools if you have school segregation by income, which is what private schools essentially are.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Keep in mind that in Finland, the use of tuition fees is strictly prohibited and all schools are well-funded.  The prohibition of tuition fees hasn't stopped schools in Finland from ranking highest in the world, let alone existing.

I don't understand why we should subsidize private schools to make up for banning tuition, though. Why subsidize the private education sector when we could simply just pump more money into the public sector and drive the perceived need for private schooling out altogether? I'm all for banning tuition fees and private schools, but I don't want the state to make up the difference. We shouldn't pay a dime for people to educate their children outside of the regular public school system.

I want private schools to still exist, but at the same time I would like to de-emphasize our nation's emphasis on competition and instead improve the quality of all schools, be they public or private.  I don't think simply driving private schools out of business is going to help anyone.

You can't have quality schools if you have school segregation by income, which is what private schools essentially are.

Which is why I would like to replace school tuition with public funds, not the private schools themselves.

[TNF]

Keep in mind that in Finland, the use of tuition fees is strictly prohibited and all schools are well-funded.  The prohibition of tuition fees hasn't stopped schools in Finland from ranking highest in the world, let alone existing.

I don't understand why we should subsidize private schools to make up for banning tuition, though. Why subsidize the private education sector when we could simply just pump more money into the public sector and drive the perceived need for private schooling out altogether? I'm all for banning tuition fees and private schools, but I don't want the state to make up the difference. We shouldn't pay a dime for people to educate their children outside of the regular public school system.

I want private schools to still exist, but at the same time I would like to de-emphasize our nation's emphasis on competition and instead improve the quality of all schools, be they public or private.  I don't think simply driving private schools out of business is going to help anyone.

You can't have quality schools if you have school segregation by income, which is what private schools essentially are.

Which is why I would like to replace school tuition with public funds, not the private schools themselves.

Why bother keeping the school 'private' then? If you're going to pay for kids to go there, just make them all into public schools and be done with it. Why continue to allow parasites to rake profits off of the top?

[TNF]

TNF, would your proposal prohibit charter schools? It seems to me that what Scott suggests would effectively require that all private schools become charter schools. That doesn't seem that problematic to me, although I would support specifying that all private schools must be operated as non-profit organizations. (This is our current policy with regard to higher education.)

Essentially.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

TNF, would your proposal prohibit charter schools? It seems to me that what Scott suggests would effectively require that all private schools become charter schools. That doesn't seem that problematic to me, although I would support specifying that all private schools must be operated as non-profit organizations. (This is our current policy with regard to higher education.)

Essentially, that is what I'm proposing.  I don't want the private schools to cease from existence, but I would like them to operate without charging tuition.

[TNF]

TNF, would your proposal prohibit charter schools? It seems to me that what Scott suggests would effectively require that all private schools become charter schools. That doesn't seem that problematic to me, although I would support specifying that all private schools must be operated as non-profit organizations. (This is our current policy with regard to higher education.)

Essentially, that is what I'm proposing.  I don't want the private schools to cease from existence, but I would like them to operate without charging tuition.

Forgive me, but I still don't understand the rationale behind having two school systems funded by the state. It's a waste of taxpayer resources when we could simply have one well financed public school system.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

TNF, would your proposal prohibit charter schools? It seems to me that what Scott suggests would effectively require that all private schools become charter schools. That doesn't seem that problematic to me, although I would support specifying that all private schools must be operated as non-profit organizations. (This is our current policy with regard to higher education.)

Essentially, that is what I'm proposing.  I don't want the private schools to cease from existence, but I would like them to operate without charging tuition.

Forgive me, but I still don't understand the rationale behind having two school systems funded by the state. It's a waste of taxpayer resources when we could simply have one well financed public school system.

The bill would effectively convert private schools into public ones, and the administrative figures/teachers/staff would be retained.  This really isn't that complicated.

[Napoleon]

Then why not operate them like normal public schools?

[TNF]

Then why not operate them like normal public schools?

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Then why not operate them like normal public schools?

They would run like normal public schools.

[TNF]

Then why not operate them like normal public schools?

They would run like normal public schools.

Then why retain private ownership of them?

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Then why not operate them like normal public schools?

They would run like normal public schools.

Then why retain private ownership of them?

Because the government shouldn't just remove people from their jobs as long as they're complying with the law?

[TNF]

Then why not operate them like normal public schools?

They would run like normal public schools.

Then why retain private ownership of them?

Because the government shouldn't just remove people from their jobs as long as they're complying with the law?

Their job of doing what exactly? Making money without actually doing anything other than presiding over a publicly funded private school?

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Then why not operate them like normal public schools?

They would run like normal public schools.

Then why retain private ownership of them?

Because the government shouldn't just remove people from their jobs as long as they're complying with the law?

Their job of doing what exactly? Making money without actually doing anything other than presiding over a publicly funded private school?

Just because a school's publicly funded doesn't mean it doesn't have/need administrative oversight.

[TNF]

Then why not operate them like normal public schools?

They would run like normal public schools.

Then why retain private ownership of them?

Because the government shouldn't just remove people from their jobs as long as they're complying with the law?

Their job of doing what exactly? Making money without actually doing anything other than presiding over a publicly funded private school?

Just because a school's publicly funded doesn't mean it doesn't have/need administrative oversight.

So why not do it ourselves, through the state, rather than pay someone in the private sector to do it?

[MaxQue]

Keep in mind that in Finland, the use of tuition fees is strictly prohibited and all schools are well-funded.  The prohibition of tuition fees hasn't stopped schools in Finland from ranking highest in the world, let alone existing.

For private schools, I mean.

I totally believe than the public system can work without tuition.
But:
1. I do not want to give public money to a private school, since we don't manage it and can't control how they spend it. And, if we totally fund it, it's not really a private school anymore.
2. Private schools will go bankrupt if they aren't funded nor can charge tuition.

[Napoleon]

I prefer to keep privately fundex private schools but I can't support publicly funded private schools. Makes no sense at all.

[TNF]

I'm with MaxQue and Napoleon on this. We shouldn't be in the business of funding private schools.

[TJ in Oregon]

Banning private schools from funding themselves through tuition would effectively ban religious schools unless the government is willing to fully fund them, which I doubt anyone here would support, including me. I have no problem with charter schools or vouchers, so long as the charter schools are nonprofits. Competition, if structured properly, makes everyone better.

I have a potpourri of other concerns:
1. I will oppose TNF's suggestion of requiring a master's degree. Teaching does not require such an advanced specialized pool of knowledge that four years of higher education does not suffice, and if that is the case we may want to consider reforming our higher education system. Master's degrees for most teachers are simply a bureaucratic hoop that much be jumped through.
2. I don't necessarily disagree with the line giving teachers the ability to choose their textbooks, but I think we need to give schools the power to ensure all teachers instructing the same course are using the same textbook.
3. Requiring recess in all grade levels is a waste of time. High schoolers are not going to make good use of recess time to further their physical conditioning. It just makes their lives more complicated by adding another hour of something required to their day.
4. I don't think the federal government should require study hall. Let the schools make that decision.
5. How can there be a federal standardized test with no federal curriculum?

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

So I take it that no one's on board with giving every student the opportunity to attend any school they want, regardless if the school is public or private?  Because if we can't agree on something as basic as that, the bill is practically DOA, and I will scrap the entire thing without relinquishing sponsorship.

[TJ in Oregon]

So I take it that no one's on board with giving every student the opportunity to attend any school they want, regardless if the school is public or private?  Because if we can't agree on something as basic as that, the bill is practically DOA, and I will scrap the entire thing.

I would be on board with creating a vouncher system for students in poorly performing impoverished areas to do that, but I can't support fully funding all private schools like this.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

So I take it that no one's on board with giving every student the opportunity to attend any school they want, regardless if the school is public or private?  Because if we can't agree on something as basic as that, the bill is practically DOA, and I will scrap the entire thing.

I would be on board with creating a vouncher system for students in poorly performing impoverished areas to do that, but I can't support fully funding all private schools like this.

Then it appears we are at an impasse.

[TJ in Oregon]

So you want the government to fund all private schools but are against vouchers? Why? The point of funding students at a private schools is to make it so parents can have a choice about their childrens' education. If we have the government annex all the private schools and make them into public ones, then there's no point in having a choice anymore because all the choices are the same.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

That is essentially the point.  In Finland, all schools are the same structure-wise, and the outcomes are mostly similar, but parents still have a choice in which schools their children go to.  Things like competition and vouchers simply aren't part of the conversation in that country, and they haven't needed either of them to get where they are today.