How Much Income Would You Need to Survive?

[Torie]

So you think improving your skills that are in demand in the marketplace has no correlation with subsequent income levels?  Really?

What 'skills are in demand' in the 'marketplace', and the wage rates that they are paid, are entirely determined by State policy, and changing that policy is the key to reducing poverty.   To use one example - Bushie and his 'CAD'.  This kind of woebegone struggle of the working class for the 'brass ring' is an utterly hopeless dead end.

It is good that you were not the wise old man guiding my business partner Guillermo in life (who arrived illegally in 1987 in the US at age 16 with no money, no English, no family support, and no job (and he became highly successful before I even met him, and now I aim to make him rich (with him working his ass off as his part of the bargain), and I generally achieve my goals in life). But frankly, I just don't believe you really believe that. You are just not that stupid opebo.

In fact, after he gets rich, I may try to induce him to run for public office (he registered as a Pub per my advice, immediately after becoming a US citizen last year, which I also induced him to do). He's just that good - and totally honest (his word is his bond) - I just don't deal with folks who are not. He's 42 years old now. Stay tuned. Cheers.

[Napoleon]

About 50k a year I guess.

[muon2]

I've done the bare bones grad student life, and at my age I don't want to go back to that. However, I might assume that I am single and working in a small city in central IL. I'll need a car and an apartment. I want some social life with friends and I'll eat out occasionally to avoid the life of a recluse.

Here's my monthly budget:
Rent - $525 (a decent sized 1 bedroom with separate kitchen and living room)
Utilities - $75
Communications - $200 (I have to moderate one of the best forums )
Auto (incl gas and repairs) - $600
Food and household supplies - $200
Dining and Entertainment - $400

Total - $2K

So 24K per year, in net cash flow after paying FICA/state employment taxes, and maybe a little income tax, or say 30K gross, if you lived in beautiful downtown Decatur. I don't think that budget would work in Laguna Niguel.  Job one, would be finding a roommate methinks, or renting a room. And let's see, no health insurance, no vacations, and nothing for clothes. How much time did you spend in Salvation Army or Goodwill shops?

Fair observations. I expect to enroll in the new law for the Illinois Health Exchange. At this salary I'm guessing I can get $200/month. My real clothing budget is about $600/year so add another $50. That is 27K/year and with federal and state deductions about 32K gross.

[LastVoter]

About 50k a year I guess.

What's the habit?

[dead0man]

alone?  barely anything.  I can find a roommate, I can ride the bus/ride a bike, I already eat cheap.  I don't need much for entertainment as long as the internet is available.  With a little luck, I could probably "survive" on 3 or 400 bucks a month. 

As it is now in my life if we moved to a cheap apartment and got rid of a lot of life's "extras" like cell phones, cable, soda, we could probably do it on $1200 or so.


(some people's level of "survive" is sadly high....you should try being poor for a time, it doesn't have to be as bad as it seems.  It's a good life lesson and makes you appreciate the good sh**t more.  Those of you that grew up in an upper middle class home or higher and have never really suffered a day of labor in your life are missing out.)

[DC Al Fine]

alone?  barely anything.  I can find a roommate, I can ride the bus/ride a bike, I already eat cheap.  I don't need much for entertainment as long as the internet is available.  With a little luck, I could probably "survive" on 3 or 400 bucks a month. 

As it is now in my life if we moved to a cheap apartment and got rid of a lot of life's "extras" like cell phones, cable, soda, we could probably do it on $1200 or so.


(some people's level of "survive" is sadly high....you should try being poor for a time, it doesn't have to be as bad as it seems.  It's a good life lesson and makes you appreciate the good sh**t more.  Those of you that grew up in an upper middle class home or higher and have never really suffered a day of labor in your life are missing out.)

Indeed. Hell you wind up spending less just by doing an honest day's work. I was always too tired to party when I worked as a labourer for the water utility.

[angus]

you should try being poor for a time...

Been there; done that.  When I first started graduate school, in the period before I got my first stipend check, I lived with two old italian women in the 'hood, about a block from the Roxbury Crossing subway station in Mission Hill.  The two old women shared one room with their dog, and I had the other.  The younger of the two women was about sixty years old and spoke very little English.  The older one was her mother who spoke no English.  My share of the rent was $300 per month and it included water and electricity.  The whole place smelled badly of urine.  There was no privacy.  There was no lock on the door and no one ever knocked.  Once I was in the middle of masturbating when the older one came in to ask me to help her get something down from a high place.  She walked in mid-stroke, but didn't seem phased.  She just glanced then rolled her eyes and mumbled something in Italian and tapped her foot while waiting impatiently for me to stow it away and jump off my cot and help her.  Didn't even give me time to wash my hands. 

The landlady was an elderly New Zealander who used to bring us food once in a while.  She also didn't understand the concept of privacy.  She knew I was only a short-term resident and had no qualms about showing the place unannounced.  Once she brought this hot, young Korean woman in to see my room very late one evening while I was sitting on the bed in my underwear reading.  That Korean woman took one look at the place and gave the landlady a polite look that said, "well, I think I've seen enough."

We had no TV, no telephone, and no air conditioner.  I used to hang out in my lab just to feel the air-conditioned air and use the internet and drink decent coffee, which was always hot and always provided to us for free.  I'd walk to BU every morning past children selling trinkets on the streets and old people asking for spare change.  I'd walk home in the late afternoon past young boys selling drugs and whores selling their bodies.  I didn't have enough spare change for any of it.

I used to look at the calories on all the candy bars.  That was in the early 90s.  Back then, they all cost fifty cents, and I figured I should maximize my fifty cents.  Mars Bar, 170 calories.  Milky Way, 210 calories.  Baby Ruth, 328 calories.  Okay, I'm gettin' the Baby Ruth.  Only time in my life I ever counted calories.  That's how poor I was.  Sometimes, a Baby Ruth was all I'd have for lunch.  Fifty cents for lunch.  Not bad.  For dinner, the two old women, their dog, and I would often eat a big vat of spaghetti.  I'd walk to the market and buy a pound of cheap pasta, and they'd make sauce out of tomatoes, peppers, and onions that they grew illegally in a little garden on the rooftop of our four-storey slum. 

That situation lasted two months.  Finally I received enough income from BU to move into a decent place near Porter Square.  I still had two roommates, both females, but they could at least speak English and were a lot more fun to hang out with.  It was nice to finally have enough scratch to buy a little booze and a little weed and some cable TV.

I think I had about 900 dollars saved up from my summer gig, and that lasted me all of August and September, the two months that I lived in Mission Hill, and it was pretty "bare bones."  In light of that circumstance, I could say that $450 might represent a minimum monthly survival income for me. 

[Mechaman]

Where the heck do you guys live? My rent is $1500 a month and its considered a very good deal.

The first time I ever rented a place, Beet, was when I went in on the main floor of a house with a college buddy in a small town in SW North Dakota.  The total rent for the whole floor was $240.  At the moment, I'm renting a two-floor, two-bedroom townhouse in small-town southern Illinois for $595 a month. But I have paid over $1,000 a month in rent when I used to live in places like Tokyo and Evanston, Illinois.  Location is everything.

Yeah you would be in Southern Illinois.

I was looking last year for a job in Springfield and I looked at the housing costs.  $780 for a FOUR BEDROOM TWO AND A HALF BATHROOM TOWNHOUSE?

And then I checked out the Jobs section and understood why.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

you should try being poor for a time...

Been there; done that.

Oh, good Lord, me too.....dirt poor, bro.

[opebo]

So you think improving your skills that are in demand in the marketplace has no correlation with subsequent income levels?  Really?

What 'skills are in demand' in the 'marketplace', and the wage rates that they are paid, are entirely determined by State policy, and changing that policy is the key to reducing poverty.   To use one example - Bushie and his 'CAD'.  This kind of woebegone struggle of the working class for the 'brass ring' is an utterly hopeless dead end.

At least try to address the question.

I already gave my budget several pages ago in this thread, Dairy Queen.

So you think improving your skills that are in demand in the marketplace has no correlation with subsequent income levels?  Really?

What 'skills are in demand' in the 'marketplace', and the wage rates that they are paid, are entirely determined by State policy, and changing that policy is the key to reducing poverty.   To use one example - Bushie and his 'CAD'.  This kind of woebegone struggle of the working class for the 'brass ring' is an utterly hopeless dead end.

It is good that you were not the wise old man guiding my business partner Guillermo in life (who arrived illegally in 1987 in the US at age 16 with no money, no English, no family support, and no job (and he became highly successful before I even met him, and now I aim to make him rich (with him working his ass off as his part of the bargain), and I generally achieve my goals in life). But frankly, I just don't believe you really believe that. You are just not that stupid opebo.

In fact, after he gets rich, I may try to induce him to run for public office (he registered as a Pub per my advice, immediately after becoming a US citizen last year, which I also induced him to do). He's just that good - and totally honest (his word is his bond) - I just don't deal with folks who are not. He's 42 years old now. Stay tuned. Cheers.

You can't 'get rich', Torie - he'll still have been a cabinet maker (or whatever he is) with dirt on his hands most of his life.  One is either born an owner or born a worker.

As for 'honesty' - people are honest when they are placed in a situation of life where 'honesty' is rewarded/reinforced.  I wouldn't place to much stock in it if I were you  (another way to put this is, if I were a rich old man of whatever predilections, I wouldn't trust anybody).

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

So you think improving your skills that are in demand in the marketplace has no correlation with subsequent income levels?  Really?

What 'skills are in demand' in the 'marketplace', and the wage rates that they are paid, are entirely determined by State policy, and changing that policy is the key to reducing poverty.   To use one example - Bushie and his 'CAD'.  This kind of woebegone struggle of the working class for the 'brass ring' is an utterly hopeless dead end.

At least try to address the question.

I already gave my budget several pages ago in this thread, Dairy Queen.

So you think improving your skills that are in demand in the marketplace has no correlation with subsequent income levels?  Really?

What 'skills are in demand' in the 'marketplace', and the wage rates that they are paid, are entirely determined by State policy, and changing that policy is the key to reducing poverty.   To use one example - Bushie and his 'CAD'.  This kind of woebegone struggle of the working class for the 'brass ring' is an utterly hopeless dead end.

It is good that you were not the wise old man guiding my business partner Guillermo in life (who arrived illegally in 1987 in the US at age 16 with no money, no English, no family support, and no job (and he became highly successful before I even met him, and now I aim to make him rich (with him working his ass off as his part of the bargain), and I generally achieve my goals in life). But frankly, I just don't believe you really believe that. You are just not that stupid opebo.

In fact, after he gets rich, I may try to induce him to run for public office (he registered as a Pub per my advice, immediately after becoming a US citizen last year, which I also induced him to do). He's just that good - and totally honest (his word is his bond) - I just don't deal with folks who are not. He's 42 years old now. Stay tuned. Cheers.

You can't 'get rich', Torie - he'll still have been a cabinet maker (or whatever he is) with dirt on his hands most of his life.  One is either born an owner or born a worker.

As for 'honesty' - people are honest when they are placed in a situation of life where 'honesty' is rewarded/reinforced.  I wouldn't place to much stock in it if I were you  (another way to put this is, if I were a rich old man of whatever predilections, I wouldn't trust anybody).

I appreciate Torie's trust in his friend, Memo, but as Reagan said, trust but verify.  Eh, Torie? 

[memphis]

Nobody else here thinks they need health insurance to survive? Nobody else has student loans to repay? Nobody else finds public transit woefully inadequate in every location that has reasonable rent? Nobody else sees the need to save for retirement or even for emergencies? I don't think there's a lot of long term thinking going on in this thread. Just a circle jerk of wishful thinking.

[Torie]

The question was how much do you need to "survive" Memphis - not how much you need to have a secure financial future living comfortably. So the lack of mention of pensions is appropriate given the question. That is why God created Social Security in part. Health insurance is another matter, unless the game is to go the Medicaid route.

[memphis]

The question was how much do you need to "survive" Memphis - not how much you need to have a secure financial future living comfortably. So the lack of mention of pensions is appropriate given the question. That is why God created Social Security in part. Health insurance is another matter, unless the game is to go the Medicaid route.

Medicaid and SS are not sufficient. Survival is a long term game.I would like to survive past retirement age and would encourage others to do the same. Especially those who do not plan to have children.

[Torie]

Lots of folks live on SS alone Memphis. They are surviving. If the issue is how much cross subsidies should be, and how robust the social safety net, that is another question. Anyway, I'm done.

[angus]

Nobody else here thinks they need health insurance to survive?

I certainly don't.  Or at least I didn't used to think so for the first 37 years of my life.  Now with these horrid laws requiring that you pay a fine if you don't things might have changed.  Don't blame me, I voted for Romney.

Even after I finished grad school and had jobs that paid well I always forewent the optional insurance when I had a choice.  Either let us take a couple hundred out of your check or not.  "Um, I'll choose 'not' Alex.  Thank you."  Seriously, I had absolutely no medical or dental insurance from the age of 14 (when my father died) till the age of 37 (when I got married and became a father.)  Now, when you have a child, it becomes necessary.  I think my insurance company was billed about ten thousand dollars just for the pre-natal visits and birth of the child.  Then there's the monthly well-visits and the immunizations and the wife constantly saying we need to take the boy to the pediatrician every five days.  Broken toenail, headache, toothache, tummyache, scratch on the knee, it all requires a clinic visit now.  Women and children!  Why, just last week my insurance company spent $1400 on braces for the boy.  We knew that was coming.  Back when he was 5 a pediatric dentist told me that his "grown up" teeth shoed signs of a crossbite, whatever that is.  We'd go see an orthodontist ever six months after that.  They'd always say, well, he's not old enough yet, come back in six months.  Finally, just last week they decided he was old enough for braces.  I had to sign a document saying I was responsible for the $1400 bill that's gonna come.  Thankfully my dental insurance will cover 100% of it.

But, yeah, if you're a single man past puberty and not yet into the heart-attack period, who needs it?  Sure, you will need a little medical treatment from time to time.  Once, when I was about 25, a car hit me when I was riding a bicycle and knocked me unconscious.  I'm sure I posted about that.  An ambulance came and picked me up and I spent the rest of the day in a hospital.  I suppose all that probably cost the government about 1500 dollars.  And once when I was in my early 30s I got an embarrassing condition from a young woman I met.  I'm sure I posted about that as well.  Luckily all that required was a daily regimen of antibiotics for a week.  Mass General provided the salaries of the two physicians and the nurse who saw me, I suppose, although I did buy the medicine out of my pocket.  It wasn't much.  I think the state probably subsidized it.

But I certainly went through my young adulthood just fine without insurance.  When I had the choice, I always opted not to let them take the 200 dollars out of my check every month.  If I'm single with no children, you bet I'd rather have the paycheck than the insurance.  I guess you young studs no longer have that choice.  Thanks Obama!

[memphis]

You have an anecdotal sample size of one, angus. You can't extrapolate risk based on that. Sounds like you've been lucky. When I was a kid, we never wore seatbelts. We were lucky about that one too. Didn't make it a good idea. Like it or not, men do get sick. All the time. Serious stuff and not so serious stuff. And, in the past, the public has, directly and indirectly, borne the cost for this. Grow up and accept your own vulnerability. Every person on this planet is frail and mortal.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

You have an anecdotal sample size of one, angus. You can't extrapolate risk based on that. Sounds like you've been lucky. When I was a kid, we never wore seatbelts. We were lucky about that one too. Didn't make it a good idea. Like it or not, men do get sick. All the time. Serious stuff and not so serious stuff. And, in the past, the public has, directly and indirectly, borne the cost for this. Grow up and accept your own vulnerability. Every person on this planet is frail and mortal.

That time of the month, memphis?

[dead0man]

Nobody else here thinks they need health insurance to survive?

Most people under the age of, say, 50 can survive just fine without insurance.

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Most people don't have student loans (even those under 30).cite

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The bus regularly circles Omaha, I'm not sure why it sucks in Memphis.

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What does that have to do with "surviving"?

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Especially among the jackasses that think they'd die if they didn't bring in 50k a year.

[angus]

You have an anecdotal sample size of one, angus. You can't extrapolate risk based on that.

Don't intend to.  Just wanted to answer your question.  The answer is no, we do not need insurance to survive.  Not medical insurance, not auto insurance, not house insurance, not boat insurance, not travel insurance, not dental insurance, not scuba diving insurance, and not the extra $16 dollars for insurance for the U-Haul truck.  Those are luxuries.  Luxuries which I can now afford, mind you, so I purchase them, but don't pretend to be such a weenie.  You don't need any of those things to survive.

Nor, for that matter, do you need student loans to survive.

[memphis]

You have an anecdotal sample size of one, angus. You can't extrapolate risk based on that.

Don't intend to.  Just wanted to answer your question.  The answer is no, we do not need insurance to survive.  Not medical insurance, not auto insurance, not house insurance, not boat insurance, not travel insurance, not dental insurance, not scuba diving insurance, and not the extra $16 dollars for insurance for the U-Haul truck.  Those are luxuries.  Luxuries which I can now afford, mind you, so I purchase them, but don't pretend to be such a weenie.  You don't need any of those things to survive.

Nor, for that matter, do you need student loans to survive.

Knowing whether or not one specific person will need expensive, but life saving medical care would require a crystal ball. And that's the whole point. You diversify your risk, because everybody is at risk. Otherwise, survival is in jeopardy. Trying getting chemo in an ER if you don't believe me.
As for mu student loans, if I do not pay them, the bank that owes them will garnish my wages befote I even get paid. They're getting theirs, one way or another. And I know not everybody has that particular mandatory expense. I was surprised that nobody else on the Forum does, apparanly. I don't have a lot of mandatory expenses like child support tbat a lot of people do.
Apologies for he harsh tone. Denial is my least favotite character flaw ever and finances are usually where people exhibit it the most.

[angus]

Apologies for he harsh tone.

okay, me too, but we're on a different frequency here.   No one put a gun to your head and said take the loans.  It was a choice.  "need to survive" is the key.  You don't need it.  Also, you're getting way too metaphysical.  You are saying something like, "oh, if I have enough money and preparation then I can beat mother nature."  You cannot.  If lightening strikes, or you get brain cancer, a tree falls on your head, then no amount of insurance will save you.  The question was about money to survive.  Insurance is unnecessary.  I really think you're reading far too much into it.  It's like the 700-per-month alcohol budget or the 600-per-month whore budget.  It's a nice luxury.  It may be appropriate for you to include medical insurance, if you're the type of person who is obsessive about it (I've met a few young males, and more than a few young females, who are), but don't assume a sense of moral superiority over the rest of us if we recognize that it is no more necessary than booze or whores.

[memphis]

On the insurance, we'll just have to agree to disagree and move on. Regarding the college loans, they weren't necessary for survival when I took them out, but they're on my back now, like it or not. They get first dibs over everything else with the full power of the law on their side. Debt is a trap. Who knew?

[angus]

On the insurance, we'll just have to agree to disagree and move on. Regarding the college loans, they weren't necessary for survival when I took them out, but they're on my back now, like it or not. They get first dibs over everything else with the full power of the law on their side. Debt is a trap. Who knew?

Fair enough.  You should include their repayment then as part of your minimum survival income. 

Tuition has gone through the roof in the 27 years since I started my first semester.  Back in the late 80s, full-time tuition at a state university was about 2000 dollars.  Now, it's at least five times that amount.  Private schools are also five times what they were back then.  That has really gotten out of hand.  A huge part of the problem is the ease with which 18-year-olds with no money, no credit history, and no job can get the money.  Federally-backed student loans.  Voila.  Once colleges and universities started figuring this out, tuition started rising.  Good ole' easy money student loans.  Thanks, Obama. 

[Ebowed]

(some people's level of "survive" is sadly high....you should try being poor for a time, it doesn't have to be as bad as it seems.  It's a good life lesson and makes you appreciate the good sh**t more.  Those of you that grew up in an upper middle class home or higher and have never really suffered a day of labor in your life are missing out.)

I could survive on about $500 a month assuming I found a room cheap enough, only spending non-rent on pasta and the Internet, but I've done that before and I hated it.  Ergo, I work my ass off for 60 hours a week (making money for somebody else and getting pretty fit doing it too) to afford the luxuries and savings that I desire.

I'm glad I don't have to worry about health insurance though, not that I ever really go to the doctor.  (I might have to go to the dentist, soon, which will cost a fortune, which is where the savings come in handy)