JP Morgan to the Eurozone periphery: your constitutions are too anti-fascist

[Vosem]

Supporting centralization and FPP is not the worst part of that set of "recommendations", though it is still pretty disgusting.

Haven't we both agreed that trying to limit the public's right to protest is far and away the worst part of that?

It's really hilarious to hear you lecturing me about the notion of public service now.

Anyhow, obviously you can't always strike in a public utility like you do on a private business. The right to strike, as every other right, is not absolute, as I'm pretty sure that for example, even on strike, hospitals won't leave their patients to die and will keep ERs going.

I would hope so to, but if you read Article 23, it certainly seems to me to protect hospital workers' right to strike (among others).

Basic services are always being provided.

Article 23 seems to provide for occasional gaps in the providing of such.

As for the shortage of other services, sure that's annoying, but society can afford a short and rare interruption of minor public services if this helps protecting the rights of the workers who provide them.

It sure can, but short and rare are operative words there. Strikes are not necessarily short and rare.

Excellent sob story about poor businesses being forced to bow down to the strikers. Business (especially big ones) can more easily afford to suspend their production than workers can afford living without their wages, you know.

But if they have an absolute constitutionally protected 'right to strike', the businesses would presumably still have to pay them while they are on strike. Businesses can more easily suspend their production than workers can afford to live without their wages, but in this case (if the Article is interpreted literally) the workers aren't actually having to give anything up to go on strike, while the businesses do. And businesses can't afford to suspend their production absolutely indefinitely, so in the end they would basically have to give in to all the strikers' demands.

[Hash]

In Spain, the recent stuff about blaming the regions for the crisis and everything is just the latest strategy of the anti-regionalist neo-Francoist Castilian right to express their time-honoured hatred of decentralization, their longing for re-centralization (which is a retarded idea) and to deflect blame from the failure of their austerity horsesh**t. This isn't to say that the CCAA are awesome and they have no blame to shoulder, but the whole "let's kill the regions, it's all their fault!" stuff peddled by the PP (and the banks/austerity wanks now apparently) conveniently forgets a bunch of important factors (stuff like Spain not being federal, the funding system for most CCAA, the conciertos for the CAPV and Navarra etc).

[Velasco]

Spain was a centralized state under Franco, as well the state machine was intrinsically corrupt and clientelar. Perhaps democracy, consensus building and decentralization haven't eradicate corruption, mismanagement and cronyism, but blaming the regions is so hypocritical and false as crying out that Franco's regime was "a period of peace", as said once the Basque PP politician Jaime Mayor Oreja in a statement that was resembling the Francoist propaganda. To identify Peace with Franco is one of the major historical slanders that can be said.

[Zanas]

Doesn't 'republican' signify 'left-wing' in France, or am I mistaken?

Well, you're not mistaken, but you're 150 years late. It did between ca. 1840 until ca. 1900 when no hope was left for any monarchist faction, and when you could finally be republican and right-wing.

[traininthedistance]

It's pretty obvious if you read the bolded statement that this line

put in place in the aftermath of the fall of fascism

is calling the constitutions outdated, as opposed to insufficiently fascistic.

Well, going by that standard the United States constitution is the most outdated of them all, and most in need of a serious rehaul.

[traininthedistance]

In Spain, the recent stuff about blaming the regions for the crisis and everything is just the latest strategy of the anti-regionalist neo-Francoist Castilian right to express their time-honoured hatred of decentralization, their longing for re-centralization (which is a retarded idea) and to deflect blame from the failure of their austerity horsesh**t. This isn't to say that the CCAA are awesome and they have no blame to shoulder, but the whole "let's kill the regions, it's all their fault!" stuff peddled by the PP (and the banks/austerity wanks now apparently) conveniently forgets a bunch of important factors (stuff like Spain not being federal, the funding system for most CCAA, the conciertos for the CAPV and Navarra etc).

You're using what looks like the English language, and what appears to be good grammar... and yet I can't brain this, not one bit.  It is just so alien.

All I can say is that here, in America, ostensibly pro-decentralization forces have, since the dawn of the nation, constantly rallied under the right-wing banner of "states' rights" etc. as a pretext for the denial of human rights, and as a way to "race to the bottom" on all sorts of regulatory and economic justice issues- whereas the federal government has, however imperfectly, tried to be relatively sane, just, and efficient by comparison.

[Vosem]

It's pretty obvious if you read the bolded statement that this line

put in place in the aftermath of the fall of fascism

is calling the constitutions outdated, as opposed to insufficiently fascistic.

Well, going by that standard the United States constitution is the most outdated of them all, and most in need of a serious rehaul.

You forgot San Marino

[Hash]

In Spain, the recent stuff about blaming the regions for the crisis and everything is just the latest strategy of the anti-regionalist neo-Francoist Castilian right to express their time-honoured hatred of decentralization, their longing for re-centralization (which is a retarded idea) and to deflect blame from the failure of their austerity horsesh**t. This isn't to say that the CCAA are awesome and they have no blame to shoulder, but the whole "let's kill the regions, it's all their fault!" stuff peddled by the PP (and the banks/austerity wanks now apparently) conveniently forgets a bunch of important factors (stuff like Spain not being federal, the funding system for most CCAA, the conciertos for the CAPV and Navarra etc).

You're using what looks like the English language, and what appears to be good grammar... and yet I can't brain this, not one bit.  It is just so alien.

I apologize for being too overly technical, but if I said that CCAA stands for 'autonomous communities', would that work?

[traininthedistance]

In Spain, the recent stuff about blaming the regions for the crisis and everything is just the latest strategy of the anti-regionalist neo-Francoist Castilian right to express their time-honoured hatred of decentralization, their longing for re-centralization (which is a retarded idea) and to deflect blame from the failure of their austerity horsesh**t. This isn't to say that the CCAA are awesome and they have no blame to shoulder, but the whole "let's kill the regions, it's all their fault!" stuff peddled by the PP (and the banks/austerity wanks now apparently) conveniently forgets a bunch of important factors (stuff like Spain not being federal, the funding system for most CCAA, the conciertos for the CAPV and Navarra etc).

You're using what looks like the English language, and what appears to be good grammar... and yet I can't brain this, not one bit.  It is just so alien.

I apologize for being too overly technical, but if I said that CCAA stands for 'autonomous communities', would that work?

Actually, I was able to figure that out.

I think you misunderstand the locus of my bewilderment here.

[Velasco]

Just a question. Do you think JP Morgan cares, even a little bit, about human rights and economic justice when is complaining about the constitutional protection of labour rights and the "powerful regions" in certain countries?

[Hash]

In Spain, the recent stuff about blaming the regions for the crisis and everything is just the latest strategy of the anti-regionalist neo-Francoist Castilian right to express their time-honoured hatred of decentralization, their longing for re-centralization (which is a retarded idea) and to deflect blame from the failure of their austerity horsesh**t. This isn't to say that the CCAA are awesome and they have no blame to shoulder, but the whole "let's kill the regions, it's all their fault!" stuff peddled by the PP (and the banks/austerity wanks now apparently) conveniently forgets a bunch of important factors (stuff like Spain not being federal, the funding system for most CCAA, the conciertos for the CAPV and Navarra etc).

You're using what looks like the English language, and what appears to be good grammar... and yet I can't brain this, not one bit.  It is just so alien.

I apologize for being too overly technical, but if I said that CCAA stands for 'autonomous communities', would that work?

Actually, I was able to figure that out.

I think you misunderstand the locus of my bewilderment here.

Oh, I think I see what you're referring to.

It goes without saying that the history and nature of federalism/regional autonomy in the US and Spain are two entirely different beasts. I could go into more detail about why that is and how it came to be, but I fear I'd be too technical and you wouldn't like it.

[traininthedistance]

In Spain, the recent stuff about blaming the regions for the crisis and everything is just the latest strategy of the anti-regionalist neo-Francoist Castilian right to express their time-honoured hatred of decentralization, their longing for re-centralization (which is a retarded idea) and to deflect blame from the failure of their austerity horsesh**t. This isn't to say that the CCAA are awesome and they have no blame to shoulder, but the whole "let's kill the regions, it's all their fault!" stuff peddled by the PP (and the banks/austerity wanks now apparently) conveniently forgets a bunch of important factors (stuff like Spain not being federal, the funding system for most CCAA, the conciertos for the CAPV and Navarra etc).

You're using what looks like the English language, and what appears to be good grammar... and yet I can't brain this, not one bit.  It is just so alien.

I apologize for being too overly technical, but if I said that CCAA stands for 'autonomous communities', would that work?

Actually, I was able to figure that out.

I think you misunderstand the locus of my bewilderment here.

Oh, I think I see what you're referring to.

It goes without saying that the history and nature of federalism/regional autonomy in the US and Spain are two entirely different beasts. I could go into more detail about why that is and how it came to be, but I fear I'd be too technical and you wouldn't like it.

Please do not fear being too technical.  I would be quite interested to understand better where you're coming from here.

[Franknburger]

A few points:

1. The German constitution (Art. 9 Par. 3) grants every individual the right to join any association (including labour unions) in order to collectively improve their conditions. This right is commonly understood to also include the right to strike (with certain exceptions, e.g. public officials that are non-dismissible). As such, JP Morgan is here not only giving recommendations to the "Euro periphery", but also to the largest economic player in the Eurozone. Good luck with this! 
We actually have had strikes of nurses, hospital doctors, or other public employees without "public official" status. Their labour union is typically ensuring that essential services (ER, intensive care units etc.) continue running undisturbed.

2. The point on decentralisation relates to two, partly related issues. First, decentralisation typically includes the right of states, autonomous regions etc. to take up credit in their own name. If a country's overall debt becomes a problem (or, more specifically, it turns to other Eurozone countries for financial assistance), there of course need to be safeguards that the fiscal discipline imposed on the central government is not being undermined by individual states/ regions. This is a technical problem that can be dealt with in multiple ways. In Germany, e.g., the Federal government and all states have signed a treaty laying down a number of mechanisms and safeguards for such a situation. No reason to question decentralisation in general (but, after having read the JP Morgan text in full, that is also not what they are doing).

Secondly, my understanding of the genesis of the Spanish problems (Velasco, please correct me if I am wrong!) is that irresponsible fiscal behaviour of a few regions, especially conservatively-governed Valencia, has played quite a role. Everybody with a bit of knowledge on Spain and Spanish history understands that the only way to keep that country together is federalism / decentralisation. Look at languages (Castilian / Catalan / Basque, etc.), look at the physical geography, look at medieval history (Reconquista) and the 20th century (civil war, ETA), or just regard Real Madrid, FC Barcelona and Athletico Bilbao..   I find it quite ironic that a conservative (PP) PM uses the failure of a conservative regional government to counter the legitimate aspirations for political & cultural self-determination of various regions, one of which (Basque Country) I found to be quite well-governed some fifteen years ago (hope they have stayed that way). In any case, JP Morgan should be intelligent enough to stay out of this kind of domestic populism- but obviously they are not.

3. "Consensus-building systems which foster political clientalism..". Political clientalism is definitely an  issue around the Mediterranean, though I fear its roots go deeper than post WW II "anti-fascist constitutions" and "consensus-building systems" Clientalism was anything but an alien concept to the Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman empires, or the Papal state, so we are dealing with cultural issues (and the need for cultural convergence within the Eurozone) here. This will be a difficult but manageable process, the main actors in which have to be the citizens of the countries concerned. And, if there was anything good in the outcome of this year's election in Italy, it was its clear vote against clientalism (Berlusconi) and against the establishment (M5S surge).
Still, the process of political and cultural reform will not be simple, and definitely not be effected by just switching from a PR to a FPTP electoral system. To the opposite, there is nothing more conducive to clientalism than a system focusing on one or several "big men", who honour votes for them by distributing jobs to their followers. It is exactly that system that has brought Greece to where it is now - more than half of total employment in the public sector, which is quite dysfunctional and corrupt, and eating up the money that would be urgently required for investment and support of the needy. [And, yes, I am aware that several Siemens top managers have been put to jail in Germany for bribing Greek officials - this is not the kind of cultural convergence I am hoping for].

[Velasco]

A few points:
irresponsible fiscal behaviour of a few regions, especially conservatively-governed Valencia, has played quite a role

It's true that some regions have been irresponsible and spendthrift and the case of Valencia is paradigmatic. However, to my understanding the regional debt has not the biggest share, which is on the side of the central government. As you say in your previous point, such problems can be dealt by mechanisms and safeguards without questioning decentralization. Unlike Germany, Spain is not formally a federal state and one of the big messes is that certain competences are not clearly separated between the central government and the regions (with annoying duplicities) and the lack of coordination. For example, healthcare competences were decentralized under a conservative government (Aznar) and I remember a Health minister in the previous government trying to reach an agreement in order to coordinate the purchase of medicines between the different regions to save costs.

On the other hand Spain hadn't a big debt before the crisis, proportionally it was less indebted than Germany. I think it's not trivial to remember that the Spain's government didn't borrow Europe to support public services, but to save the banking system, which irresponsible behaviour here and everywhere these reports are not in the habit of questioning for obvious reasons.

I find it quite ironic that a conservative (PP) PM uses the failure of a conservative regional government to counter the legitimate aspirations for political & cultural self-determination of various regions, one of which (Basque Country) I found to be quite well-governed some fifteen years ago (hope they have stayed that way). In any case, JP Morgan should be intelligent enough to stay out of this kind of domestic populism- but obviously they are not.

The issue with the Basque Country -as you say in general is a well governed region- is the special fiscal regime known as Concierto, which is deemed by some people as a privilege with regard to other regions. It's not a claim exclusive of people defending more centralism, Catalans feel in disadvantage with regard to the Basques. I think there's room to negotiate, leaving populism aside, with Basque Country and Navarre on their contribution to the treasury without removing a fiscal regime that (like it or not) they feel as a part of their identity. The real mess comes when Catalonia (20% of the country's economy) is reclaiming a similar system. As for History, anyone can realize that in Spain centralism is related to Franco's and the Monarchic Restoration regimes, both extremely corrupt and inefficient.

[Nanwe]

A few points:
irresponsible fiscal behaviour of a few regions, especially conservatively-governed Valencia, has played quite a role

It's true that some regions have been irresponsible and spendthrift and the case of Valencia is paradigmatic. However, to my understanding the regional debt has not the biggest share, which is on the side of the central government. As you say in your previous point, such problems can be dealt by mechanisms and safeguards without questioning decentralization. Unlike Germany, Spain is not formally a federal state and one of the big messes is that certain competences are not clearly separated between the central government and the regions (with annoying duplicities) and the lack of coordination. For example, healthcare competences were decentralized under a conservative government (Aznar) and I remember a Health minister in the previous government trying to reach an agreement in order to coordinate the purchase of medicines between the different regions to save costs.

On the other hand Spain hadn't a big debt before the crisis, proportionally it was less indebted than Germany. I think it's not trivial to remember that the Spain's government didn't borrow Europe to support public services, but to save the banking system, which irresponsible behaviour here and everywhere these reports are not in the habit of questioning for obvious reasons.

I find it quite ironic that a conservative (PP) PM uses the failure of a conservative regional government to counter the legitimate aspirations for political & cultural self-determination of various regions, one of which (Basque Country) I found to be quite well-governed some fifteen years ago (hope they have stayed that way). In any case, JP Morgan should be intelligent enough to stay out of this kind of domestic populism- but obviously they are not.

The issue with the Basque Country -as you say in general is a well governed region- is the special fiscal regime known as Concierto, which is deemed by some people as a privilege with regard to other regions. It's not a claim exclusive of people defending more centralism, Catalans feel in disadvantage with regard to the Basques. I think there's room to negotiate, leaving populism aside, with Basque Country and Navarre on their contribution to the treasury without removing a fiscal regime that (like it or not) they feel as a part of their identity. The real mess comes when Catalonia (20% of the country's economy) is reclaiming a similar system. As for History, anyone can realize that in Spain centralism is related to Franco's and the Monarchic Restoration regimes, both extremely corrupt and inefficient.

Personally, and this is probably more of an opinion than something necessarily based on hard raw data is that the biggest problem in our messy administrative systems are municipalities and the provinces. As I understand municipalities tend to have little fiscal autonomy and mostly rely on the IBI (a tax on property) to sustain themselves (IIRC) and hence building houses like land wasn't finite was to the benefit. Of course, the lack of any control over what mayors do is ridiculous. The large number of "tenientes de alcalde" (I read it like client) and the ridiculous money wasted on high salaries for municipal administration (aren't there many mayors earning more than Rajoy?), stupid diets (if your salary is so high why should taxpayers pay your dinners?) and prestige projects is just a clear indication, imho, of the true problem in our administrative structure.

Of course, it should go without saying that there are wayyy too many municipalities, there have been three large rounds of municipal merger in our history, 1833, another in the 1860s and another in the 1960s. As a result, and since most of the rural exodus kicked in during the 60s and 70s (I'd say 1963-73), there is a ridiculous number of small municipalities, of which Illán de Vacas, Toledo has the dubious honour of being the smallest by having 5 inhabitants (bet you they are all 60>) and still having a mayor. Municipal mergers ought to be done and quickly. Any municipality smaller than about 1,000 should be merged, perhaps using something close to the pedanía method.

Now, the provinces and the diputaciones are redundant. The old instruments of the central government to impose their decisions on the local level (not something bad, necessarily) are redundant and a nest of clientelism and corruption. If the will to change the Constitution is limited, then just merge the provinces of the CCAAs with more than one province into the CCAA structure and that way  they'd be absorbed by the CCAA's own bureaucracy and you'd get fairer electoral divisions.

Also, I disagree with the Spanish left's belief that the Restauración was a bad period of our history.

[Velasco]

Also, I disagree with the Spanish left's belief that the Restauración was a bad period of our history.

I always wondered why Monarchic Restoration and Turno Pacífico are so mythologized in certain circles. Perhaps it's understandable among certain conservatives, like members of Cánovas del Castillo Foundation. It would be fascinating discussing that in the History board.

Basically I agree on the uselessness of Diputaciones. Aside from the Basque Country, they don't play a significant role elsewhere. However, Rajoy wants to reinforce them at the cost of municipal autonomy. I think a more suitable solution would be uniting services between several municipalities and, in some cases, merging those below 1,000 inhabitants, as you say. Regarding to that, in Spain exist the Mancomunidades and Comarcas (Aragon and Catalonia). The idea would be promoting them in order to decentralize services in the regions (or autonomous communities).

[Franknburger]

Some lessons learnt from Germany, which may (or may not) help your current Spanish discussion:

1. States, autonomous communities or however the largest sub-national unit shall be called need a certain minimum size to be cost-effective. All smaller German states, and especially the two smallest of them, Saarland and Bremen, have structural budgetary problems. As a rule of thumb, I would say that , a sub-national unit needs at least 4.5-5 million inhabitants to be financially viable. There are of course exceptions from this rule: Extremely rich regions (Hamburg and Hesse in the case of Germany, maybe the Basque country in Spain) can become financially viable with less inhabitants, and archipelagos (Islas Canarias) present a special challenge.
OTOH, there is also an upper limit above which states become too large to be governed effectively. North-Rhine Westfalia (17m inhabitants) is an example. Again, as a 'best guess', I would put the upper limit at around 10 million inhabitants. In that sense, Catalonia and Andalusia should be potentially viable, Estremadura or Asturia rather not..
While fusions into units of 5-10 million inhabitants are the preferable solution, this may not always be possible for political reasons. In the mid-1990s, e.g., a plebiscite on joining Berlin and Brandenburg failed; since then, no further attempt has been made in Germany. However, states have commenced to integrate institutions. Hamburg and Schleswig-Holstein, e.g., have a few years ago united their statistical offices, land registries /cadastres, and a number of other technical services.

2. The next administrative layer in Germany has traditionally been the "Regierungsbezirk" (1-2.5 million inhabitants), which in spatial terms may be considered equivalent to the Provinces and/or Diputaciones, Smaller states never were divided into "Regierungsbezirke", and a number of larger states, most notably Lower Saxony and Saxony, have during the last years completely abolished that structure. If you are looking for a lean yet effective territorial structure, scrap this whole layer! A few functions may be retained by, e.g., designing "planning regions" as an association of counties (comarcas?) that get technical support from the state's (autonomous community's) infrastructure departments.

3. Counties (comarcas?) are regulated by the individual states. A general trend during the last years has been merging smaller counties into larger, viable ones: Saxony in 2008 went from 29 counties down to 13, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern in 2011 from 18 down to 8, Thuringia is currently discussing whether the now-existing 23 counties shall be reduced to 10, 8, or even only 4. In Lower-Saxony, Hannover City and the surrounding Hannover county merged into the "Hannover Region" in 2001, the same happened with the "Aachen Region" in North-Rhine-Westphalia in 2009. Further county mergers are on the political agenda in Lower Saxony and Schleswig-Holstein.
The general aim in all these reforms has been to create counties with at least 200,000 inhabitants in sparsely populated areas (e.g. Mecklenburg-Vorpommern) and around 350,000 inhabitants in more densely populated areas (e.g. Saxony).  At 1.1 million inhabitants, the newly created "Hannover Region" is now Germany's fourth-largest county-level unit after Berlin, Hamburg and Munich.

4. Finally, the municipalities. Again, as the counties, they are regulated by the individual states, and as such we have three different models existing in Germany:
a.) Unitary municipality: Standard, e.g., in North-Rhine Westphalia and Hesse. They have typically been created in the 1970s by merging several small municipalities into a large one, though mergers are on-going (e.g. merger of all municipalities on the island of Fehmarn into "Fehmarn City" in 2003). They typically have at least 20,000 inhabitants and may extend over quite an area (the currently proposed merger of Bleckede, Dahlenburg and Amt Neuhaus in Lower Saxony would create a municipality extending over nearly 600 km², which is slightly larger than Ibiza). Unitary communities have a professional mayor and administration, and are governed by a single elected municipal council.
b.) Municipal associations: While municipalities remain legally independent, they must join an association that takes over all administrative and technical functions, including spatial planning, infrastructure maintenance etc. Minimum sizes are regulated by state law. In Lower Saxony, e.g., municipal associations need to have at least 7,000 inhabitants. The association has a professional mayor and administration and is governed by an elected municipal council. The member communities have elected councils and mayors as well, however, these work on a voluntary base. All financial management is carried out by the municipal association.
c. "Amt" (office): A more decentralised form of municipal association that exists in the states of Schleswig-Holstein, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and Brandenburg. Municipalities maintain self-government (elected, voluntary councils & mayors) and financial and spatial planning autonomy, but the "Amt" takes over all administrative and technical functions with professional staff. Unlike municipal associations, which are semi-permanent, member communities of an "Amt" are free to leave one "Amt" and join another one (or decide to have administrative functions carried out by the nearest city). In the case of my home-state of Schleswig-Holstein, after the latest reform (2008), any municipality with less than 5,000 inhabitants must be member of an "Amt", and an "Amt" must cover at least 8,000 inhabitants (exceptions apply to islands).

----

And now I look forward to lots of maps with spatial reorganisation proposals for Spain being posted (probably in a new thread)
   

[ingemann]

Just a question. Do you think JP Morgan cares, even a little bit, about human rights and economic justice when is complaining about the constitutional protection of labour rights and the "powerful regions" in certain countries?

I think we all know the answer to that.

[Velasco]

Just a question. Do you think JP Morgan cares, even a little bit, about human rights and economic justice when is complaining about the constitutional protection of labour rights and the "powerful regions" in certain countries?

I think we all know the answer to that.

I think we all know the meaning of the expression "rhetorical question" and perhaps it's not difficult to understand the reason to pose it in the context of the thread.

3. Counties (comarcas?) are regulated by the individual states.
   

To answer this concrete question, yes, "comarcas" are roughly equivalent to counties (cantons or arrondissements in France) in other countries and in the cases of Aragon and Catalonia they have an administrative entity and are regulated by those autonomous communities. In other regions, "comarca" has another meaning. Quoting Wikipedia:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comarcas_of_Spain

Thank you for your complete explanation about Germany. I'll wait for Namwe to give some opinions on regions and spacial reorganization. It's not a bad idea making maps on the topic

[Franknburger]

Thank you for your complete explanation about Germany. I'll wait for Namwe to give some opinions on regions and spacial reorganization. It's not a bad idea making maps on the topic

If you intend to do some mapping (which I really would enjoy), two more hints:
1. For the state/CAA level, it is useful to look at the church organisation, especially when it comes to deciding whether a certain merger might be acceptable to the population or not.
2. For comarcas/counties, the lowest amateur soccer leagues can give a good orientation (they have in fact been used in some of the recent county reorganisations in Germany).

[Velasco]

I've just read an article by UPyD MEP Francisco Sosa Wagner on the subject of Spanish regions and I remembered this. The text, published in El Mundo newspaper, is reproduced in the party's website.

http://www.upyd.es/contenidos/noticias/117/102318-Cuantas_Comunidades_Autonomas_Francisco_Sosa_Wagner

Also, he made some statements here:

http://www.lne.es/club-prensa/2012/06/16/sosa-wagner-imposible-mantener-17-autonomias-hay-reducirlas-4-o-5/1257339.html

Following the German example, Sosa Wagner holds the number of regions must be reduced from the current 17 to 4 or 5 and takes advantage to attack secessionist tendencies; he considers independence referenda and claims on the "right to decide" (it means right to self-determination in the language of Catalan or Basque nationalists) as "jokes". Besides the usual UPyD's harsh criticism towards the "autonomic state", he claims the Constitutional reform is the way to a territorial reorganization which -in the line of UPyD's boss Rosa Díez- must rely on a "wide base agreement" between "all the political forces that believe in the State ". With regard to the rest (nationalists in the periphery), he says "it will be necessary to think on how to act and in what extent they have to be involved in this process". I wonder if it's realistic making crucial reforms without peripheral nationalists, if they pretend to maintain the country united. The right to self-determination is the central element in Catalan politics right now, with a massive support for a referendum (above 70%).

To give a different perspective, an article by Antonio Elorza (this time in English) on PSOE's federal proposal:

http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/07/23/inenglish/1374591532_398241.html

PS: I guess I could retake the idea of making some maps in the following weeks. Julio, Nanwe, are you there? Any suggestion?

[Nanwe]

I've just read an article by UPyD MEP Francisco Sosa Wagner on the subject of Spanish regions and I remembered this. The text, published in El Mundo newspaper, is reproduced in the party's website.

http://www.upyd.es/contenidos/noticias/117/102318-Cuantas_Comunidades_Autonomas_Francisco_Sosa_Wagner

Also, he made some statements here:

http://www.lne.es/club-prensa/2012/06/16/sosa-wagner-imposible-mantener-17-autonomias-hay-reducirlas-4-o-5/1257339.html

Following the German example, Sosa Wagner holds the number of regions must be reduced from the current 17 to 4 or 5 and takes advantage to attack secessionist tendencies; he considers independence referenda and claims on the "right to decide" (it means right to self-determination in the language of Catalan or Basque nationalists) as "jokes". Besides the usual UPyD's harsh criticism towards the "autonomic state", he claims the Constitutional reform is the way to a territorial reorganization which -in the line of UPyD's boss Rosa Díez- must rely on a "wide base agreement" between "all the political forces that believe in the State ". With regard to the rest (nationalists in the periphery), he says "it will be necessary to think on how to act and in what extent they have to be involved in this process". I wonder if it's realistic making crucial reforms without peripheral nationalists, if they pretend to maintain the country united. The right to self-determination is the central element in Catalan politics right now, with a massive support for a referendum (above 70%).

To give a different perspective, an article by Antonio Elorza (this time in English) on PSOE's federal proposal:

http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/07/23/inenglish/1374591532_398241.html

PS: I guess I could retake the idea of making some maps in the following weeks. Julio, Nanwe, are you there? Any suggestion?

Sorry for my silence, but I'm finishing to move here in Maastricht. Expect some sort of answer in about a week

[Nanwe]

I've just read an article by UPyD MEP Francisco Sosa Wagner on the subject of Spanish regions and I remembered this. The text, published in El Mundo newspaper, is reproduced in the party's website.

http://www.upyd.es/contenidos/noticias/117/102318-Cuantas_Comunidades_Autonomas_Francisco_Sosa_Wagner

Also, he made some statements here:

http://www.lne.es/club-prensa/2012/06/16/sosa-wagner-imposible-mantener-17-autonomias-hay-reducirlas-4-o-5/1257339.html

Following the German example, Sosa Wagner holds the number of regions must be reduced from the current 17 to 4 or 5 and takes advantage to attack secessionist tendencies; he considers independence referenda and claims on the "right to decide" (it means right to self-determination in the language of Catalan or Basque nationalists) as "jokes". Besides the usual UPyD's harsh criticism towards the "autonomic state", he claims the Constitutional reform is the way to a territorial reorganization which -in the line of UPyD's boss Rosa Díez- must rely on a "wide base agreement" between "all the political forces that believe in the State ". With regard to the rest (nationalists in the periphery), he says "it will be necessary to think on how to act and in what extent they have to be involved in this process". I wonder if it's realistic making crucial reforms without peripheral nationalists, if they pretend to maintain the country united. The right to self-determination is the central element in Catalan politics right now, with a massive support for a referendum (above 70%).

To give a different perspective, an article by Antonio Elorza (this time in English) on PSOE's federal proposal:

http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/07/23/inenglish/1374591532_398241.html

PS: I guess I could retake the idea of making some maps in the following weeks. Julio, Nanwe, are you there? Any suggestion?

And back from vacation and moving.

Well, you know I'm not the biggest supporter of further devolution (except in fiscal matters, to make the communities being leeches off Madrid and Madrid from having undue influence).

I do support the Catalan right to decide (mind you, also our right to kick them out if they continue to be such self-righteous a*holes) but Catalans should be warned of the result of independence, i.e. Pujolistan, but up to them.

I do disagree with the Sosa Wagner, 4 or 5 is too much of a reduction. What doe she propose a Basque-Navarrese (Provincias vascongadas ) , a Països Catalans, a Galician, an Andalucian-Extremeña and a single unified Castillian autonomy? That's not possible. Too many regional identities, I do believe, as a good vallisoletano (not fachisoletano, mind you ) that cantabrians and riojans are castillians (whether they admit it or not ) but nevertheless, Asturians have a clearly differentiated identity, so do the Aragonese and the Murcians from Andalucians and Valencians. And you know, being Valencian, in the spirit of blaverismo is essentially being anti-Catalan as a matter of principle.

You know, since the 'Castillians' tend to agree that centralization is necessary, why don't we use the good ol' mancomunidad idea of Cambó and Maura or the original sense of the comunidades in the Constitution and centralize the authority while creating some peripherial autonomies with varying degrees of devolution? It's probably a good outcome, albeit unpopular. And this time with clear-cut competences, it's time some regional governments stop blackmailing Madrid over new powers when most autonomies don't want to.

Umm, I'd love to make some maps, if I can, it should be easy to start with Madrid, reducing the number of municipalities to include into the city commuter town and since most town are over 1000 or 2000 people it shouldn't be problematic.

Also, I think I'm gonna start a thread in the History section about the Restauración, because I for one have a good opinion of it while overall most people think of it as 50-60 years of "anni horribiles"

PD: I think I already mentioned that I don't like one main aspect of the PSOE federal project in decentralizing justice, it would make the regional supreme courts powerful and the Supremo a silly, useless chamber, and considering that regional courts (TSJC especially) are highly politicised and mediatized, I'd prefer to keep that power away in the Supremo's partially competent hands.

[Nanwe]

Shouldn't double post but...



So, in the map in the left we have a map of municipalities. In red, municipalities of below 1000 people. The smallest being Madarcos with 44 people. Then in light red, municipalities with populations between 1,000 and 1,500 and in orange those with populations in between 1,500 and 2,000 people.

And in the right, there is a map of the comarcas (counties, shires) of Madrid. These comarcas, however are not historic nor geographic, but instead made for touristic purposes and doesnt include neither Madrid's Metropolitan Area nor the Corredor del Henares (the two most urban and densely populated areas of Madrid).

So in light blue, Madrid's metropolitan zone + Alcala de Henares; in dark blue, Sierra Norte (capital: Torrelaguna); in red, Cuenca Alta del Manzanares (capital: Colmenar Viejo); in green (the northern one), Cuenca del Guadarrama (capital: Collado Villalba); in the greenish blue (east), Cuenca del Medio Jarama (capital: Algete); in purple, Sierra Oeste (capital: San Martín de Valdeiglesias); in orange, Cuenca del Henares (capital: Rivas-Vaciamadrid); in pink, Comarca Sur (capital: Valdemoro); in southeast green, Comarca de Las Vegas (capital: Aranjuez).

[Velasco]

Wow, very interesting, Nanwe, I did't see it. Don't like very much the 'touristic' comarcal division. I think we should open a new thread for this and copy-and-paste this post of yours and Franknburgers' on German administrative divisions. I'll PM you, look at your messages.